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First of all I appreciate everyone's response to my posts.  I was able to gleen something helpful from almost everyone.  To Greg2 aka The Search I thought long and hard about your offer.  I just am not able to operate in that manner.  It is not that I don't want to know the answer.  It just is not my style.  You are right though that this puts me at a huge disadvantage.

Here is what has happened so far.

After my original post I thought about all of this.  I decided that for me the right course of action was to lay all of my cards out on the table.  So, I confronted Tatyana with the second ad I had found.  This was done before she had a chance to respond to my first letter.

About midnight (Saturday) I get a phone call.  It is Tatyana.  She asked me if I read her email yet.  I had not.  So while speaking to her on the phone I read it.  Basically what she told me was that this was being done to her by some one at work "as a joke".  She was obviously upset but not overly dramatic about things.

There is more to the conversation then that.  But, basically I believed her.  I mean this woman had introduced me to her family,  encouraged me to develop a relationship with her daughter.  To me it just did not make sense that she would place these personal ads.

Well, even though I believed her I am not completely stupid.  Monday morning I did some additional internet searching.  What do I find?  You guessed it.  2 more ads.

So, I now have a total of four ads.  One was quite old probably predating our relationship (I won't even take it into consideration).  The one on the datingru site was probably place last fall.  Another placed on 1/11/2002 and the most recent placed on 2/13/2002 (this one was taken down by her on Monday morning).

All of this really has me thinking and none of it adds up.  Her story does not fit.  But in my mind, neither does her placing all of these ads.  

I wrote her a letter in which I raised thes issues that for me did not add up.

The adds used a total of 4 different pictures.  Would someone playing a joke have access to all of these?

The ads were placed at different times.  Nobody I know who plays jokes is quite this persistant.

The wording in the ad placed 1/11 is almost exactly the same as the ad through which we met.  This ad had been removed quite some time ago.

Her response to me was unwavering she insisted that she had not placed the recent ads and that they had been placed by a co worker of hers.  She also asked why I did not trust her etc...  She alo asked me what I thought her actions in regard to introducing me to her family, relationship with her daughter et. al. indicated.  She asked if these were the actions of a woman who cared about me or a woman who was looking for another man.

I continued to push her a bit.  The facts still did not ad up for me  one way or the other.  Finally her story changed in that she told me this was the act of a co-worker whom had asked her out numerous times but whom she had told no.

I told her that even if what she was telling me was true.  It just opened up a different set of issues  (communication)and that even this lack of communication still ultimatly had more to do with trust than anything else.

We spoke again on the phone this morning.  At this point I still do not believe I have gotten the complete story.  I do not think she is seriously looking to meet another man.  If anything thing i think she may be trying to keep some options open on some level.  (If I do not ask her to marry me in June she will atleast have some correspondance going).

As far as the story about the co-worker.  It just does not ad up for me.  I give it a fairly minimal change of being true.

So, where does this leave me?  I am not sure.  I genuinely believe she cares for me and I care for her.  We have a good time together.  She has many traits that appeal to me.  But, if she is not being completely honest with me we have no future.

I guess I am going to continue to maintain a relationship with her.  I do not think I will be initiating the Visa process in June.  I may write some additional women.  I will be watching her.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

What method do you guys use to do this type of search?

... in response to Hey Philb and LP, posted by thesearch on Mar 7, 2002

I use several internet search engines.  Probably the most effective for me has been Google.  I use names, veriations of the name, the portion of an email address before the @ , sometimes I leave the name off completely and search using occupation, city, age, date of birth etc.. I usually search in both cyrillic and English.  There are also some Russian search engines I have used.  All of these methods have produced results.   Here is a url that lists regional search engines by country and continent.

http://www.ntu.edu.sg/library/search/specialcat.htm#region

... in response to Search engines, posted by Philb on Mar 7, 2002

..use Google but http://www.3bp.com/ is pretty good too, as it uses Google and a host of others at the same time.

In fact, just put "search engines" in Google and use them all.

... in response to I also...., posted by LP on Mar 7, 2002

asdf

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

...advice for you: Be a man and handle it yourself based on what *you* feel. After all, you're the only one who knows all the intricacies anyway. You want real advice? Listen to the little man inside you, the little man knows *all*.

Why in the world would you solicit advice from strangers on an internet board? Especially in a situation as this?  Asking a bunch of yahoos on the Net, some of whom barely have a grip on their own Ops, is not the way to go about it. Do you really need this kind of "advice" to make a judgment?

Don't you have anyone better qualified (closer to you) to bounce this off of? If not, can't you make these command decisions yourself? You be a big boy, ain't ya? Do you *really* believe how you'll proceed will be influenced by anything offered here? Do you honestly put a lot of stock in advice offered by "experts" with no knowledge of your situation, other than the one side side of the story you provide? Come on, ye can't be that stupid can ye?

Its a shame some of you can't look at this board as if you're reading it for the very first time, as sometimes it appears so loser-like it's an embarresment to manhood everywhere. True or not, the perception is of a bunch of guys with seemingly so little experience with women (of any kind), that they need to consult each other on matters with obvious answers. The propensity of some to openly spill the details of their private relations for all the world to see is astounding, being surpassed only by how paralyzed many are in dealing with women in general.

So stop with the jellyfish act and suck it up. Like the man said: fish or cut bait. Keerist, no wonder the trolls have a field day.

... in response to Jeesh, here is some...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

Be a man
handle it yourself based on what *you* feel
Why in the world would you solicit advice from strangers on an internet board? Especially in a situation as this? Asking a bunch of yahoos on the Net, some of whom barely have a grip on their own Ops, is not the way to go about it. Do you really need this kind of "advice" to make a judgment?
Don't you have anyone better qualified (closer to you) to bounce this off of?
If not, can't you make these command decisions yourself?
You be a big boy, ain't ya?
Do you *really* believe how you'll proceed will be influenced by anything offered here?
Come on, ye can't be that stupid can ye?
it appears so loser-like it's an embarresment to manhood everywhere.
WELL, LP, MAYBE YOU'RE NOT A TROLL BUT YOU’RE DEFINITELY FULL OF BULL CRAP! at least in this opinion of yours.

... in response to Jeesh, here is some...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

Obviously, you've been spending too much time in that under pressurized cockpit again.  BTW, why do they call it a cock-pit?  What the he!! do you guys do up there anyway when the thing is on autopilot for it to be referred to as a cock-pit?  LOL

Anyway, just because you may have clear cut convictions on what you would do or not do in a given situtation, doesn't mean everyone was cut from the same mold as yourself.  Where is your empathy?  And what's wrong with bouncing questions off members of the board?  While you are somewhat correct in that everyone here may not be as stable as a three legged stool, there are some members who have very good level headed (myself not included :)) advice and suggestions that others have benefitted from.  It might even be argued that bouncing things off strangers may give an even  broader input of possible courses of action then their close friends since people tend to have friends that have similiar views, likes and dislikes.

Needless to say, its no reason to rip the man's head off because he doesn't do or see things the way you do.  And who cares what the trolls think anyway.  I applaud the man for seeking input into something that you are correct in that he will utimately have to make the final decision on.  I think its a shame that you don't see this board for what it is, people in this endeavor helping others in this endeavor regardless of who you are or what you are seeking or what mold you were cut from.  BTW, men come in all different characters and personalities, have a little empathy for those that don't match yours.  And believe it or not, some men have more experience with women then others.  That doesn't make them any less a man, just less experienced and in no way makes necessarily unsuitable for this endeavor (although they need to way MORE careful).

And this wasn't meant to be a flame LP, just some ole Buick thinking.  :)

... in response to Re: Jeesh, here is some...., posted by DE on Mar 6, 2002

..appreciate your ole Buick thinking DE, and your comments are quite perceptive. Me thinks I'll have to ponder them some.

I didn't feel I was ripping the man's head off. Just my usual blunt nature being mistaken for malice which isn't really there. You would see a great difference if I was truly in the decapitating mode. My point was that the while the board (sometimes) provides good advice regarding the technical and quasi-technical aspects of the issues, I see little point in why anyone would discuss their personal tribulations here. In a situation like Phil's, I also fail to see what possible use any advice can be, as there are too many subtleties involved.

Only he knows the score 100% and giving him useless input only muddies his waters, so to speak. Would you ask a person on the street for this kind of advice? Do you think that just because those here share his pursuit, that singular and simple connection makes them any more qualified?

In my opinion, it does not. My point was also that a man should make his own decisions using his gut instinct, training, experience, and other input that is relevant at the time. If Phil finds the advice here to be such, than he and I do disagree, as we obviously do on airing one's private life to a bunch of strangers for what I see as little or no tangible benefit.

I *do* care what others think because it effects my life in ways that I must deal with frequently. I also recognize this board for what it is but, as you stated, that may not be as others see it, including yourself. Your other points are all valid and I accept them as truth but the fact is many posts do come across to any rational person as classic loser fodder. I can be empathic (or is that emphatic? :-), but maybe not so much in this case. The guy needs to get it together if he wants to have what it takes to survive this endeavor, is all I'm saying.

I was going to respond to Phil's original post and tell him I did internet searches on every girl I "met" before I committed any resources to them and that he should have done this long ago. I was also going to tell him that I caught 80% of them lying in one form or another and one was even running a porn site. In the end, I concluded that being a little untruthful in relations is almost rooted in their culture, they see little wrong with it, and it isn't going away anytime soon. (lol, I liked the girl running the porn site and that wasn't the showstopper but, as it turned out, moving on was the best thing for me.)

I finally chose a woman whos's lies were "white" and accepted it (like the visa thing) as part of the game. If any of the romantic types here still searching think differently, than you just haven't tried hard enough to catch her in the act. If you think she, or anyone else, is a baston of truth, than you haven't learned much about human behavior in general.

But I didn't post it because it Phil should learn from his own experiences and he wouldn't have accepted it anyway. Btw, I also predicted he would continue on with her. (Maybe now I'm feeling a little hypoxic, where is that danm O2 mask?)

I recognize my communication skills are lacking in some areas. This does not mean I have any malice towards anyone, just that I'm trying to get my opinion across as honestly as I see it, as is my right. I wish Phil luck, but IMHO he needs to look inward instead of towards the sucking, swirling void of the Internet. (lol, which is little more than a global pornography network, just ask Yoey)

Btw, there is a reason behind the "cockpit" thing and I'll be happy to explain it, as long as you can explain to me why they call it a "box office". :-)

... in response to I always...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

it is difficult to understand your rather straight up approach, but I guess that is more of my issue then yours. LOL.  I do think that asking guys on this board is not nearly the same as asking someone on the street.  For example, although I don't really know you, I do know you better then just some stranger off the street, at least in your views, attitudes and knowledge of this endeavor.  And although my knowledge of you in this area is not all inclusive, it is enough that I would rather ask you a question about this endeavor then a stranger off the street or possibly even some of my associates, friends, etc.  I think that members of this board should be (and I believe most are) honored that others do have trust, respect and confidence in their knowledge, experiences and opinions to ask them questions regarding issues that at times are extremely sensitive and personal.  JMHO

I'll give the box office a shot.  My guess, and it is only a guess is that it is because in the early days of the theaters, there was a small "box" like office outside the theater in front of the main entrance where the tickets were purchased.  Hence, the term box office?  LOL, like I said, its only a guess.

... in response to Sometimes...., posted by DE on Mar 7, 2002

.....you be a gentleman.

I should have made it clearer that while you are speaking in a general sense, I'm speaking of Phil's particular situation. His scenario (and a few others I can envision), seem less likely to benefit from any advice given here than other cases. After all, as you've stated, the advice is only what *others* would do and I fail to see how that can be applied to Phil since only he knows all ins and outs of his deal. While the others offer specific advice based only on what *they* would do, mine is to use his own bean to figure it out. If you think about it, thats quite a different thing.

Phil states that we all learn from other's experiences and I agree, but this particular experience seems to me less suited for extenal input. I'll admit other solicitaions of advice may be more or less valuable depending on situation. However, I still find it odd that some will openly spill private details of their life to strangers when, in certain circustances, they would not do so even to close friends. Guess thats just me, though.

As for my "straight up approach", believe me, I do not always consider it an asset. Hell, it rubs *me* the wrong way at times. I'm not going invoke the "Popeye Defense" either (I yam what I yam), as I believe change can be a good thing.

Your (and a few others) thoughful and even responses to my sometimes harsh expressions are in fact cause for me to reflect. lol, I've actually made much progress in the last ten years but there is still some distance to go. I'm workin on it though, thanx to guys like you, Ken, Dan, and a few others external to PL. Unfortunatley, morons can slow this process and I meet a lot of morons, including some real pros here. Funny, but the woman in my life thinks I have a very "sensitive soul" (a classic FSU term).
I haven't figured out if she means gentle, "touchy", or its' simply because we treat the ones we love a little softer.

Not sure, but your explanation of Box Office seems plausable. Btw, this is a term now used in the airline biz also. Female flight crew are common these days and its hard to believe the first *all* female crewed flight happened in the 70s, a lot longer ago than most people realize. My mate is astounded that such oppurtunities exist for her gender in the USA and even more amazed when I tell her women are actually favored by law in such positions as professional flying, firefighting, law enforcement, ect. (lol, if you think teaching a woman to drive is tough, try teaching one to fly.) I'll leave it up to others to debate the wisdom of those political decisions but I will say women make good pilots when it comes to handling the machine itself. They have the light touch, finess, and grace required, but where they often fail badly is in the technical understanding of systems.

I was introducing a new female FO to a small biz jet some years ago and while walking the exterior of the aiplane I pointed out the "ice lights" (small external lights used to inspect the wings in night flight for ice accumulation.) When we were finished, I asked if she had any questions and in all seriousness she asked: "How do those little lights melt all the ice"?

"Cockpit"? As I undertsand it, its an old nautical term refering to the place in a sailboat or yatch where steering is performed. The "well" or "pit" is this area.) I've also read it applies to 18th century warships where sailors (men, of course) were taken when wounded.

... in response to Sometimes...., posted by DE on Mar 7, 2002

Because there's a small, you know what up front..

hahahaha...

Sorry LP, I couldn't resist!!!

lol!

... in response to Yeah, and that's why they call it a cock..., posted by BrianN on Mar 7, 2002

...Brian, I'll have to use that.

Actually, I'm often called a big one (what a needle does), but I assume they're refering to my award winning personality. :-)

... in response to I always...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

I have read enough of your posts to recognize that this is your style.  As with any post I pick the parts I find useful and discard the rest.  

I disagree with some of your post and portions of it I find useful.  

As far as someone needing to make their own decisions and not having the advice of strangers muddy the water,  obviously we all need to make our own decisions and live with the consequences.  I know of very few people who make important decisions based solely on the advice of others.  There own experience always comes into play.

For me bouncing things off others (yes, even strangers) is very helpful.  It often serves to validate or at times invalidate my own experiences.  We learn from the expeiences of others all of our lives.  If we did not have these to build on we would still be living in caves.

Personally, I would have liked to hear your response to my original post. Who knows maybe I would have accepted a little of your experience.

By the way I did an internet search long ago these ads had been placed since that time.

... in response to Re: Jeesh, here is some...., posted by DE on Mar 6, 2002

I thought I'd chime in to say I agree and to say that I thought the threads on this topic have been some of the more interesting ones lately. This is a good use of this place.

... in response to Jeesh, here is some...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

LP, when you do get into politic, you san count on my vote, anywhere, anytime, just let me know the date of the
election ahead of them.

... in response to Jeesh, here is some...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

sure am glad to see you've your 'kid gloves' on today!!!

... in response to Jeesh, here is some...., posted by LP on Mar 6, 2002

The problem with this type of mate hunting or 'fishing' is that there is a fantasy element. With women close to home we can easily be the booter or the bootee and can get a mono a mono perspective. The FSU element or any long distance relationship is a Disney land Express paradox. First we are enamered by there imiginary flawlessness and 'love' for us. In contrast we cant trust them due to the imaginary immorality of there culture. It took a while before I actually believed my wife when she said she never had sex for money--------:) But I believe all women get paid for sex some way or the other. But nevertheless, we cannot be objective. Is this bad? Yes and No. We are able to experience a truly 'romantic' sensation that is only comperable to the Sunday night movie on the Women's network. The bad new is-the fantasy ends...........I know there are many men happily married to Russian women-but I think they will admit, the fantasy was one He!! of a thriller. Anyway, LP excuse these behaviors. It is truly love. But I feel that you and I are both aware of the chemical implications of that. More importantly, I feel guys like you and I are just hardened-we call it practical. Foro guys like us RW are even better. They are hard and tempered but have strong feminine qualities-it takes guys like us to deal with this. Others who are emotionally 'gree' in the tree of heartache will do well also. They will just find themselves in a more Mother/yes mam relationship. And, that is OK too. I have to keep my girl in check always or she would truly walk all over me-I think she does it on purpose to keep my teeth sharp-it works...........she is such a smart girl-my wife.
Anyway
Joe

... in response to Speaking from experience........, posted by yoe on Mar 6, 2002

....you're starting to scare me yoey, you're makin to much sense these days.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002


It is time to fish or cut bait. You have to do what you feel good about. May not mean a thing, But if i was in your positions, I would wirte her and tell her how you feel. However something has come up that you both need to get past in order to have the type of  relationship you want with her. Ask her, if she feels you need to maybe think about writing to other ladies. You will find out how she really feels about you.  If she is really not sure of your future intentions, this could give her a way out ,or  to come clean with.  All, that I have read here is good advice. I may be a little different, but I see this as a good opportunity to find out just exactly where you are at in this relationship. I would even give her the oppertunity to come clean on it. I would ask her to help you understand how this man got the picture that was taken while you were there?  You will also learn how honest she will be.  She may have just been keeping th e doors open to see if it works out between you.  She was caught, now she may be sitting there trying to figure out how to hold things togather.  If this is ture, she needs your help.
Give her the opportunity.  Throw her the ball and see how she handles it. Lay all the cards on the table. You know her better than anyone here. You know how you feel about her better than anyone here.  I am pretty direct in the way I handle things. But, I would do it in a way thar makes it easy for her to tell the truth. It can be done.

... in response to Re: Here is what has happened so far., posted by terry on Mar 6, 2002

Terry,
I like your approach a lot.  The idea of leaving her some "wiggle room" is great.  I also agree that this is the point where this relationship will sink or swim.  This is Phil's opportunity to define his relationship with the RW.  Life has a way of forcing firm decsions when they are necessary.
KenC

... in response to good post, posted by KenC on Mar 6, 2002

Tahnk You Ken, I even used a Dictionary:)

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

Phil, first of all, these other agencies may have stolen or purchased her picture/address from other agencie(s). That doesn't explain where the other pictures came from, unless there is maybe even a 5th agency which has many photos of her that could have been used. She may be quite unaware of other agencies using her profile. If she is serious about you, ask her to remove the profile from these agencies, but on the flip side if you wish her to restrict her attention only to you, then of course so should you restrict your attention to other RW's.  You could also setup a dummy email account and write her under a ficticious name, her reply (if any) may prove one way or the other as to her sincerity, her removing these profiles would be other proof of her sincerity. You could also contact the agencies yourself and find out how the profile was obtained.  

I would give her the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong, but all this really depends on how serious your intentions are? Among other things, relationships are built on trust and if there is any failings in this area, its just a house of glass. Good luck.

... in response to What I would recommend......, posted by chuck12 on Mar 6, 2002

He stated that he found her profile on a Russian language singles site that is internal to Russia, not a marriage agency that caters to Western men. It becomes a much different situation because it may mean that she is looking for someone local to have a fling with.

-blm

... in response to Chuck, if you read Philb's earlier posts..., posted by BarryM on Mar 6, 2002

If I was single, and wanting to try to find girls that hundreds of others haven't wrote to from the states one of the first places I would look is in Russian personals. Even if she didn't speak English I would bet she would figure out a way to read it out of curiosity, and there's always a good chance she may speak English.
Mike --- who's too tired to do a spell check

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

With all of the good feedback that has already been posted, I'll try my own, for what it's worth.

A relationship, where marriage is going to be considered, should have some natural components to it.

There are too many mechanical ones here, that seem to be obfuscating the natural parts.  The two trips, the visiting the relatives... the relationship with kid... all of that bs, is just mechanical.

The natural thing, is that this girl shouldn't have to be told to think about and "consider", the future by you.  This girl, if she's really looking forward to having a wonderful new husband (stateside or not), should be drooling with anticipation at the thought.  Either she's REALLY happy with you Phil, or she's just coasting in neutral.  (Maybe she's been hosed over by one too many guys before, such as other men planning to visit that never did.. etc).

But all of that (assumption) is based on what you're saying Phil, as you really craft your words well, so well, that the underlying meaning of them, can be missed.  I mean, who was it that said you talked too much about skiing and not about her?  I mean, you've got enough hidden caveats contained your statements concerning your future (marriage) relationship with this lady that it sounds like you're almost EXPECTING to have to pull the ripcord that you've weaved.

I mean, think about it, if you're unsure, then obviously there's a reason for it - (even without the adverts you found). I wouldn't necessarily call any of this HER FAULT, but rather, if there was a problem, and it was hers, then it would be her level of desire for you, that was creating this whole situation.

The only test, imo, that can be used here, is simply to start limiting communication with her, and then see where it goes.  If she's really in love with you, then she'll definitely be doing some serious thinking, and taking some more agressive action.  If she keeps asking over time what's wrong, then it would be prudent to either avoid the issue, or just tell her that you've got some thinking to do, since it's obvious that "we" have a communications problem - (what relationship doesn't), that is creating doubt about your belief in you two as a long term couple.  That's it.  

If the woman that you want to have in your life is willing to go the extra mile for you ON HER OWN, (as she expected you to do for her), then you'll have a great match made, otherwise, I expect that you'll be heartbroken in the future.

I guess you've done everything you're supposed to do.  Now it's time to see what she does.

Good luck with it.

... in response to what a crap fest., posted by BrianN on Mar 5, 2002

... indeed.

lol, I especially liked the "crap fest" part.

... in response to what a crap fest., posted by BrianN on Mar 5, 2002

that was me who mentioned about skiing in the trip report

not one report of a romantic dinner - and special moments and words shared - did that happen Phlib?

The answer needs to be yes IMHO

... in response to well worded, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

My post after my last trip was meant to be more of a factual report rather then a discussion of my feelings.

And Yes her and I did have many beautiful moments together.

In regards to my post below about her being cautios in expressing her feelings, I always found this cautiousness to be re-assuring.  She wasn't expressing undying love for me after a week.  She always said that she did not want to mislead me and wanted to be certain before she spoke to me of certain things.  I always looked upon this as a very admirable quality in her.

... in response to Re: well worded, posted by Philb on Mar 6, 2002

I agree with you totally here. You certainly would not want the opposite.

I got the feeling from reading your post that if Tatyana had been ready - I mean totally ready  that you would have officially proposed on your last visit.

Did I read correctly inbetween the lines on this?

... in response to I am with you, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

I don't know.  I never really thought about it because I knew it was not an opption

... in response to Re: well worded, posted by Philb on Mar 6, 2002

is your enthusiasm.

If it's there, then it comes out and it's difficult to hide.  Heck, the only reason why I even read and post on this thread is because of my enthusiasm for this process and watching everyone go through it, and I'm drooling with the same, to finish it myself successfully.

I just went through my own crap fest with my lady in the last two months.  It was VERY hard on me... her too.  But it was all a communication problem, and dumping the protocol, for naturalism.

I look back and laugh at my idiotic fears, that almost caused me to dump her... what a fool I would have been, had I not had the friggin brains to be patient, and play dumb a little... eventually, the dam broke between us, and the "surface" romantic protocol was gone forever.  Now, she's so comfortable, and open with me (not hiding anything), that she even criticises my bad russian sometimes, and it's like... hmmm, this is what I was looking for in the first place.  A woman that wasn't afraid of me.

Not just a lover, but a real friend, and confidant in life, for everything.

Recently, I learned something very important about this... and that was that I was more truthful, open and honest with my interpreter than I was with her.  Then I felt like maybe my interpreter was the better choice?  No.  It's just that we didn't have the protocol between us to deal with.  We just talked.  About anything, and everything, very freely. I decided that if it was going to work with L and I, then I had to have the same kind of open closeness with L also.

That is what I pursued... and it is where "WE" succeeded together, but it took a lot of hell to get here.  

In some ways, I would side with the pros on this, to give her a chance, (but passively).  After all, you've done a lot so far, now it's time to see if she'll break down those emotional barriers she's got, and see if the real person you're looking for in her, is able to get down on the same level as you.

If she does, then you'll have a LOT to celebrate, because many couples never even get this far, even after being married for years!

If she can't, or won't, then I'd just walk away and be nice about it.

... in response to well worded, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

sd

... in response to what a crap fest., posted by BrianN on Mar 5, 2002

Bryan, I totally agree with you.Test with younger, richer,nicer looking guy wouldn't work because if she is smart lady she simply won't respond to anybody for the next few months.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I will first repeat what I said to your previous post.  Both man and woman should keep all of their options open until the formal engagement.

Others here have said similar things more elequently.

And it appears that you understand this for yourself as you say:  "I may write some additional women."

OK, so you see the light.

Now the question is why do you not think what is fair for the gander is fair for the goose?

So get over it.  Continue to write other ladies and let her correspond with other men.
Then go see her as planned, and plan to see some other women also.  Hope that she sees some other men.  In that way, when you are together, both of you will have some points of comparison.  If you want to marry her, propose.  If she wants to marry you, she will accept.  You will both make a commitment to cut off correspondence with others.  You will get married and live happily ever after; or you will stray after marriage; or she will stray after marriage; or you both will.

Life goes on.

I heard someone say that the reason men often lie to women is because women ask so many questions.  That appears to be the case in reverse here.  Stop inquiring about what she is doing.  You have no claim on her at this point.  No proposal of marriage, no acceptance, no engagement.

JR

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002


I understand totally about not wanting to test her. There is a certain distastefull aspect about such for sure. But, this is why nice guys get screwed. I am not saying you are going to get screwed. It is just that if she is tested, you might have your answer and thus possibly avoid  worse future heartache and more financial loss.  However, you are doing what you perceive as the honorable thing by trusting her. And, you are correct that is the honorable thing to do if there is no reason to not trust her.

However, I am going to challenge you on this if I might. You see, the rules have changed with her ads showing up in the time sequence that they have. Also the fact that one of the photo's is recent (the time of your visit) - taken at a time when having her place an ad following that time frame is not appropriate. So, another agency would not have had that photo to send to sell to anyone. So that possibility is not very likely. If your lady never gave you a reason to be suspicious, it would a very wrong thing to test her and nothing more than a reflection of paranoia.

But, now she reveals more facts - now about a co-worker who asked her out. Why did she not tell you this at first? In my years, I have seen a common trend with people who lie. When the liar starts to think that the lie is not being believed the liar conjures up more lies to try and make the story more believable, this continues until the original lie is believed.  

"At this point I still do not believe I have gotten the complete story. I do not think she is seriously looking to meet another man. If anything thing i think she may be trying to keep some options open on some level. (If I do not ask her to marry me in June she will at least have some correspondance going)."

Sorry, but it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself here. I ask you these two questions.

1) With your last meeting, do you think that there was any doubt in her mind that your relationship was moving toward marriage?

2) Did you reveal to her your intentions of marriage versus keeping her in the dark?

If your answers are no and yes respectfully to these questions ---------------- she has no position keeping her options open. A woman does not do this if she is in love -- she only does this if she has an agenda.

Now before, I said that she may be innocent but, it does not look good especially with her story expanding.

Now, instead of testing her, you are not going to proceed with the K-1 in June and perhaps write to other ladies. Do you think that if this lady is innocent that this going to promote a good relationship with her? Do you think that this will promote her feeling that you will trust her? Or, can you see how this could actually get her to think that she needs to expand her options and that perhaps you are not the right man for her? Are you going to tell her that you are going to send more letters to other women? If you are not, where is the honor and trust in this action? These things will all become real to her.

If someone you do not know tests her, there is not way this will become real as not trusting her unless you decide to tell her. With your approach it is clear to her that you do not trust her.

I get the sense you are going to hang in there until you get over this and then proceed. My call is testing her with an unknown man will cause less trouble. However, the only problem is that you have let her know that you are aware of her ads and she may decide to not respond to a guy, not because she does not want to but because she is concerned now about getting caught. She may already be corresponding with other men for all you know.

There is a time when being honorable shifts to being unwise. Where is that point? Everyone has a line drawn in the sand, it is just where we draw it. Again, I only have some of the facts, you have them all, only you can know what is the right thing to do. Sometimes, we need to learn a lesson and we choose the path that will teach us that lesson. When is it that you are making the right choice - either way - that being of knowing what is the right thing to do and the other of choosing the option  to learn a lesson.

... in response to ok, posted by thesearch on Mar 5, 2002

My answers to the above questions are no and yes respectively.

And yes if I write other women I will let her know otherwise I would be being dishonest with her.

As far as the K1 process if I have doubts about her I will not do it.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I understand your situation Philb, but I must tell you that your last sentence: "I guess I am going to continue to maintain a relationship with her. I do not think I will be initiating the Visa process in June. I may write some additional women. I will be watching her", is basically reflective of what she is probably doing. If we write to 100 women, why in our arrogance do we expect each of those women to cling to the thin thread of hope we cast at them. One thing to keep in mind, is that reason would show they are the ones usually in a modicum of jeaparody in this world, not us! They have the most to lose, not us! And where we go over "selecting" our babes from our little accumulated harems, they will probably have one chance to make good. Remember that 95% of the guys who write never go over. Do you think she knows this? Do you think she may feel you might just be another lost case of "hope" like so many others these women eventually regard with skepticism. If you both had proposed a commitment and love to each other then I could view this differently. But Philb, I wonder how much of your suffering is ego, and how much is really betrayal. I say this, because I have been in the same boat, and felt the same way you do. But eventually I had to face the truth about just what I was offering and what I was getting in return.

Steve

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I agree with Mark's post that there are probably other explanations.  I asked my wife what she thought and she said if he has not proposed he should not complain that her profile may still be out there.  There is always a great fear that the man will lose interest.  These girls know that there are thousands of profiles to choose from and that it is a difficult process.  They are aware of the successes and failures of ladies in their city.  They are not likely to commit to one person unless it really looks like a sure thing.  She also agreed that the recent profile did not necessarily mean she had lost interest.  I recall having to remove several of my wife's profiles after we were married.  I would be inclined to believe her and, if you really want her, go for her.  If not, get off the pot.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

Just my opinion... but here goes...

After reading all of your "evidence" and "theories"... your plots and sub-plots, my reaction can be summed up in two simple words:

WHO CARES???

The way I see it... one of three things is happening:

1. Other people are placing her ads. This is not so unusual. I have actually had it happen to me. I have an ad running on bride.ru right now, that I never placed.

2. She is waiting for you to make a move, but isn't willing to take put all of her eggs in a basket who left months ago, and made no official commitment to her yet.  So, she leaves a few lines in the water.

3. She is playing you for a total fool.

NOTHING that you have said would lead us to option 3.

If it is option 1... all you are doing by throwing all of this in her face is making yourself look like a jerk.

If it is number 2... again, I say: WHO CARES???

So what if she wants to keep a door open in case you don't come through in June? As long as you come through in June, that makes it all a moot point, doesn't it?

Listen... someone said something to me once that I found really profound, so I'll pass it on to you:

The problem in most relationships is that we judge others by their actions... but we judge ourselves by our intentions.

I think there is some of that going on here.

I mean, here you are... fully INTENDING to propose to her in June. So... WHY HAVEN'T YOU PROPOSED TO HER YET???

Your intentions are known only to you. Your ACTIONS haven't shown her anything except that you like her a lot. How does SHE know that you don't have a girlfriend here in the states? How does SHE know what will happen in June?

You make it sound like she is going out with other men and sleeping with them. THAT may be cause for concern.

But placing ads on the internet? Even if she is doing it... WHO CARES???

You're going to let paranoia and "red flag fever" ruin a perfectly good relationship.

IMHO

... in response to Personally, I think you are making a mis..., posted by MarkInTx on Mar 5, 2002

A big "me to!" on what Mark said.

My girl's ad took a while for the agency to take off.  She kept on getting letters for a few months afterwards.  She told me all about them and it was a good laugh for both of us.  

There are so many "marriage networks" out there that even if the one she is registered with removes the add it still may be on other ones.  When you add in some places that outright steal ads--I'm sure it's almost impossible to completely remove an ad (if it is "desirable" for the agency.)

You should also let her know what your intentions are.

... in response to I agree, posted by AndyDrew on Mar 5, 2002

There is a difference though all of her ads have been placed on free sites.  This is not AFA, Absolut, Anastasia, etc. selling profiles.  These are Russian sites that would not fit the description we usually apply to an "agency".

There is also another difference.  Your girl told you about them.  Mine did not.

... in response to Personally, I think you are making a mis..., posted by MarkInTx on Mar 5, 2002

And I could very well be one now.  The intentions/actions deal is a good point.  As far as throwing things in her face, do you think it is actually better to not say anything?

Why have I not proposed to her yet?  She has always been extremely cautious in regards to expressing her feelings etc..  It was not until this second trip in Jan/Feb that she seemed resonably certain of her feelings towards me.  With that being the case,  I told her I would be coming back in June with the sole purpose of proposing to her and beginning the Visa process.  I told her that between now and then she needed to think about our relationship.  I told her I wanted her to be certain of me.  

You are correct that she has no guarrantees.  The only thing I will say is that I have followed through on everyting I have ever told her and she knows this.

... in response to Sometimes I am a jerk ; ), posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

SO... lemme get this straight...

You told her you were going to propose to her? (Isn't that like making an appointment to make an appointment?)

OK. That is more that I thought you had committed to.

But you told her to "make sure" of you?

Sounds like she decided to do that by seeing if there were anyone else who caught her fancy...

I would say that if her feelings were that unsure that you are smart to pull back on your idea to propose...

... in response to I missed that before, posted by MarkInTx on Mar 7, 2002

The reason I so bluntly stated the intended purpose of my June trip was so that there would be no doubt in her mind of my intended purpose.  At times she has exhibited some statements that lead me to believe that she was some difficulty with trust.  Not a lot of problem (as compared to some divorced women I have known), but it is there.  She has made statements in the past such as "Sometimes I wonder if this is just a big adventure to you".  

I think that trust (on both sides) is a very difficult thing to build and maintain in these relationships.  We obviously can't see eachother on a daily basis etc.. So, I told her this to reduce some of the doubts that are bound to come up over the next few months and leave no questions in regards to my thoughts concerning our relationship.

... in response to Sometimes I am a jerk ; ), posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

Wait one minute. I do not believe what I am hearing here.

So, you did tell her you were coming back to ask her to marry you and that the only issue was her being sure about you.

That is not a commitment? Have you lied to her before? Why would she not believe you?

I am sorry, I can not agree with Mark that it is acceptable to have her options open with her understanding your intentions.  Not under these circumstances. And here you are agreeing with him?

The only acceptable situation is someone else putting those pictures and ads up. The only bad side of this is not telling you all she knew at first about this situation.

Now how do you think that guy who asked her out would get that more recent photo? What am I missing here?

I think you had better forget the whole thing and marry her.

Sitting on the fence here is not IMHO the best choice - you either test her or have total trust and forget the whole thing and just marry her. To be in the middle will only cause damage IMHO. Just my call.

Even if she did lie to you, if you are a good man and know how to make a woman feel special she may decide you were her best choice. As long as that is the outcome - what do you care.
 

... in response to Re: Sometimes I am a jerk ; ), posted by thesearch on Mar 5, 2002

for me--- what would I do.

Test her. But, I would not test her if I had unlimited funds to make about three to four more trips.

"She has always been extremely cautious in regards to expressing her feelings etc.. It was not until this second trip in Jan/Feb that she seemed resonably certain of her feelings towards me."

I personally would never marry a lady  where I had these words to say about her as she related to me.

Cautious in regards to expressing her feelings?
REASONABLY certain? (Sorry about the all upper case but that word reasonably used to describe feelings toward you rubs me the wrong way.)

The words would have to be very expressive of her feelings for me and certain without a doubt.

If I can not have those words of description ---I ain't goin there point blank.

Now, maybe she will be like this next time --- but until she is forget it.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I haven't checked the board for a few days, so this is the first I've seen about this.  Let me tell you about some  information I got from a friend.

I knew a guy who owned a smaller RW agency.  Once while visiting in my home we were talking while his RW and my RW were visiting, and we began to talk about the agency business.  According to him, he had been contacted multiple times by different agencies wanting to buy some of his photo's / biographies, and others contacted him wanting to sell him photo's / biographies from their agency.

Guys, your girl may not be lying if you find her picture posted on a different site and she claims to know nothing about it.  It is a "situation" that needs to be handled "delicately" or you could end up losing a wonderful lady because of your jealosy and another man's greed.

About the claims my friend made ...... Jack can offer advice it this indeed is a common practice.

John

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

My wife and I will be celebrating our 5th anniversary in June.  I also found a new personal ad for her during our relationship.  It was placed after we became engaged. She said she knew nothing about it.  She was only 3 weeks away from her K-1 visa interview when it came and it was a different photo than her previous ad that I originally responded to.

After a brief fight to get the new ad removed, it came out that the owner bought a portfolio of women's photos and ad copy from a Colombian man (my wife's Colombian).  I believe what happened in her case was that she intially gave several photos to the first agency, then someone either working with them or who had access to their records assembled a portfolio of women's ads with several photos each and marketed it without the agency's permission (i.e. he stole them).  It does happen.

Of course, your lady is saying something different.  It could be true, but then again, a jilted suitor placing the ads does sound a bit far fetched.  Maybe she's guessing that this other man did this and it was really a case of someone selling portfolios.  Doesn't sound like there's much you can do other than play it by ear and see what happens.  Best of luck.  This doesn't sound like something easy to deal with.

... in response to Re: Here is what has happened so far., posted by Patrick on Mar 5, 2002

My wife was getting her paperwork ready to come over on a K-1 when she accompanied a friend to an internet agency.  On the end table was a book full of "eligible bachelors" that the ladies could write to.  My name, picture and email were listed there.  My wife had a major fit over it with me later, and I had to explain that I had no clue how it got there.  

Luckily, her profile was still on the web a year after we decided to get serious with only each other.  I sent her the link and asked her if I should think that she was looking for other men, because her ad was still out there.  I got the point home to her, and it then became a nonissue.

It is possible that this is the case here, but I agree that the lady's reasoning seems a little far fetched.  It is more likely that she doesn't know what's going on and is making a guess as to how the ads got there, or else she is placing the ads and is trying to hide the fact.  Either way, it seems like going forward cautiously is a very prudent thing to do.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

"But, if she is not being completely honest with me we have no future."

That is the absolute truth.  A little lie here or there left alone will only encourage bigger ones later.  Trust your instincts on this one and don't let yourself get drawn in too deep too quickly.

... in response to Here is what has happened so far., posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

Tatyana is 35. I am 43.  She is a computer programmer works with one other woman and about 20 men.  In the looks department I think we are a fairly even match.  I have gone out with AW who are more attractive then her and who are not as attractive as her.  I have also dated AW who are younger than her.

... in response to a little more info, posted by Philb on Mar 5, 2002

I completely agree with JohnK. Just listen your instincts. I don't want to offend you but my impression that you both trying really hard to make these relationship work.Look if spark, feelings, chemistry is there then why do you wait so long to propose her? If not than may be it didn't meant to be and no need to push it.Again it is my impression but may be I'm wrong.I have to tell you that I do think that she placed ads but I completely understand why she did it (since you didn't propose her).I don't believe in story with playing jokes coworker who has 4 different pictures of her.The only thing that botheres me that she came up with this story rather tell you the truth what cause her to do this.

... in response to Philb,, posted by Natalya on Mar 5, 2002

Her story could be true. If she works as a computer programmer and she placed the ads from her computer at work, her co-workers could easily have access to her pictures. If her internet browser has autocomplete and saves passwords, any co-worker could sign on to her accounts and access her personal ads or even web based email. Now most people who are computer knowledgable are wise enough to secure their personal information at work, but she could have been foolish and left her computer unsecure.

You would be surprised what a person with malicious intent can do with a computer if they are clever enough.

-blm

... in response to Natalya...., posted by BarryM on Mar 5, 2002

one of the photo's was taken at their last meeting. This photo would not have been available to this guy unless they are actually seeing each other on the sly.

Besides if this guy was trying to break things up, he would not go to all this work to just hope that phlib found it.

If he was smart and did have Phlib's e-mail if he should have sent Phlib a photo of a drop dead gorgeous woman who found him on the Inter net to show Tatyana that her man was not loyal. He could create a fake e-mail from Phlib showing that he responded. He would not leave this up for chance.  That is my call.

Until  the timing of the photo and its appearance are explained this is all BS.

... in response to One problem Barry, posted by thesearch on Mar 6, 2002

nt

... in response to I am still not buying it but the photos ..., posted by Philb on Mar 6, 2002

So, the latest photos were on her PC at work? Well yes they could be retrieved.

Have you asked her what this guy's name is? I think that you should get a real name for this supposedly real person.

... in response to Natalya...., posted by BarryM on Mar 5, 2002

I know exactly what are you talking about.My husband is computer guy himself. But! Postingher ad by coworker with 4 different pictures doesn't really sound to me like somebody is "playing jokes", more like guy intentionally  trying to break her relationship with Philb. If this is the case she must have known how desperate her coworker to win her back or play revenge ( who knows) and she must have let Philb know that this could happen so it wouldn't be a problem later.

... in response to BarryM,, posted by Natalya on Mar 5, 2002

This is one of the concerns I expressed to her, why if this was such a problem for her at work she had not told me about this.  Her response was that she felt that what was important was her and I and this did not concern her and I.  I told her that because we were a couple what affects one of us affects us both.