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Hi everyone,

I have been writing to this one lady for over six months. She is olmost 40 with one child. She has never asked for any money. Speaks broken English.

She tells me that she has had many letters from men from the USA but has placed me at the top of her list because of my photograph, my education and because of the nature of my letters. Maybe the truth maybe not - not important to me at this point.  

After going over twice before with nothing working out - I am pretty casual about it with her  -  telling her that there is no way that I will know if I am interested in her until I spend some time with her.

I am taking a portion of her last letter and posting it. If she and I were an item, I would not do this but consider her anonymous at this point as well as myself also to a lesser degree. And if anything materializes between her and me no one will know if this was from her letter or someone else plain and simple.

I asked her why she is interested in seeking a foreign man. She tells me that she has no trouble attracting men, just that the ones available where she lives do not meet up to what she wants. She says that many married men want a relationship with her but she refuses to participate in such.

She is very up front here in her letter as  you can see about wanting to leave the FSU (Ukraine in this case). I am not concerned about what she is saying relative to wanting out of the FSU. I suppose that I would be more concerned if she said nothing.  

Now, the point that I am going to bring up here is that if a guy is paranoid, he may react thinking as though she is trying to use him.  She is a very attractive woman, does not look her age, with a figure that most women envy and she is simply saying that she wants the best case scenario that she can attract with what she has to offer.  

We can not get away from this relative to the  fact that the probable majority of these women are eyeing the opportunity of a good economic country to move to as being a significant reason they are willing to go through all of what is required to meet a foreign man. Here is a portion of that letter:

Greg, maybe I not  must to write, but I want know about your plans for meet with me!

I am live in this country and every day I am understand what this country not have the future!!!

We have complete chaos in all!

We can to work very much and not have nothing! I am tired all this!

Know I am to perfect my German and if you not want or you cannot to meet with me in the near  future -I can go work in Germany or Switzerland. I hope you can understand me!

I have daughter and I must to thing about her normal life

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

I know you aren't paranoid, but you did mention what a "paranoid" person might think about receiving such a letter.

Paranoia is clearly built-in to this pursuit. Is it the green card, or is it love? As someone wrote below, you can never know what's in someone else's mind. It's not talked much about here in other than black and white terms, but it's got to be an ongoing debate in guy's heads that eats up many minutes of each day.

From the woman's point of view, they hear true stories about guys that abuse them once they get here, not letting them go out of the house, controlling of them, very jealous of them-- just the actions of guys who are plainly paranoid! I heard (not from this board) that this is common. On this board all you ever hear is what we guys are afraid of and what can go wrong, not what terrible things can and do happen to many of these women.

I wish it were possible to know how many budding relationships were destroyed by a guy who got bent out of shape by paranoia and stopped communicating. I'd probably be rich if I received a dime from every guy who just imagined, Don Quixote-like, red flags rippling in the wind. (I have almost blown a good thing, myself.) I also highly suspect that this paranoia, which could affect anybody-- especially in a greatly mismatched marriage-- eats, and eats and eats at some guys after they are married. Guys must still look for red flags after marriage. This can cause a guy to freak out. Then he freaks out the woman. Then things might happen which mean the relationship cannot be repaired.

Based upon what is in your message and also in her letter, I, personally, would completely trust her. I have a similar experience: my fiancee was debating an offer to work in France when I popped the question. The difference was she never told me about this opportunity until later. If she had told me about the possibility of her going to France earlier-- who knows? If I had just read enough fresh messages on this board about how dishonest Russian women are-- especially the compelling ones from Russian women (supposedly) themselves (young jaded Muscovite peeps like Lara-- she's a YJM, for sure), I might have easily lapsed into paranoia, and would have thought that she had made up the France story in order to pressure precious little ole me.

From what you wrote, she sounds to me to be totally trustworthy. Totally! If I found her attractive and basically a good match, and the communication has been good thus far, I wouldn't hesitate to plan to spend my next vacation with her, if I were you. And I would do everything I could to toss out the old baggage from the past trips. She is a unique individual. She sounds like the kind of woman a nice guy can be very serious with, "serious" meaning a serious LTR.

She wants a better life. This means for her living in the U.S. with her daughter and the guy she loves-- maybe you. You want a better life, too. This means staying in the U.S. and, if things develop, living with her and her daughter and loving her in a committed relationship. Where's the crime? Where's the scam?

Would it be "love" only if you both agreed to leave your respective countries and dwell together in a rat infested sewer in Bangladesh, surviving on carrion? Women-- god, I am afraid I am about to sound like a Frenchman-- have a nesting instinct, a desire to settle down and have a home for the family. The United States is prime nesting ground for establishing a home where love and family can bloom. A place where human rights and children are nutured. The fruit of their unions (now I am sounding Biblical-- I mean "children") have incredible opportunities, by comparison. Also the nests have a steady water supply.

Japanese women, by comparison, hardly ever search for foreign husbands because Japan is pretty good nesting ground (although they are in a depression right now). They, in general, are also racist-- white people are inferior to them, don't you know? And with the other advanced countries also-- good nesting ground. I don't see thousands of women trying to escape from Germany or France. Good nesting ground. Real good. So when trolls come on here and bring this up, they are just blowing smoke to my mind. Without love, is your life quantifiably better (This IS Planet Love)? Maybe ONLY quantifiably (not qualitatively, if you catch my drift). Without love, a life with a steady water supply and electricity isn't such a thrill. And even having a Bimmer gets old without a loved one in the passenger seat.

One scam that is largely untold here is the scam by men who show how nice and loving they are in Russia or Ukraine, and then get eaten away by paranoia and jealousy and become possessive freakouts when they bring the ladies here. I don't have stats on the frequency of this, but I know about this from highly experienced people who bring couples together and keep in touch with them that it is very common. No wonder these marriages can be difficult. Guys, get a grip!!!!!!!!!! However, even without my having stats to back this up, just look at the posts here, and you know how paranoid people are. (Search the archives for "red flags" and "scams"-- you could devote the rest of your life getting through all of it, and that would be a tragic waste of one's life.) Also, all the guys that come on here about their broken marriages give us a lop-sided tale. I'd like to read from a honest guy how he freaked out and blew it. How about some anonymous honesty from somebody out there? And we all know that people get freaky when they get really paranoid-- it's PSY 101.

Overall this board is a great resource for a sincere guy who wants to find the love of his life in the FSU. However, there are enough posts any any given day to make me want to rename this board "Paranoia Central" and cause people to give up.

Use common sense to separate the genuine from the scammers (asking for money-- yes, a huge, deep crimson flag). And try to think positive thoughts, especially when warranted by someone's clear honesty, as you would in any relationship.

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

I added "x" to the "nt" so now it is cooler than just plain old "nt" plus it goes along with " X Generation" and  plain mysteriousness :) It is amazing this little x. The most powerful letter of the alphabet.

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

This is an excellent well thought out post. It is all about balance and it appears that most who get involved in this pursuit tend to vacillate from one side of balance to the other at some time or another or tend to be on one side pretty much all of the time. True balance is in itself what the term describes balancing opposites so to speak and thus we are always in a balancing act as the factors affecting this balancing act can change and we have to find balance once again.

There are many things that affect how a person perceives what that balance is (as I believe that everyone is trying to do this based upon their objective). I could give a list that could be a few pages long for goodness sake.

Now one of the reasons I would suspect YOU have clear ideas about this is your admission that you yourself caused some problems in your relationship by being overly concerned at one (or more) junctures. Experience seems to be still the best teacher.

When I was new in all of this, the talk about scammers etc. did make me jumpy but then again, before I found this board I was naive and experienced two scammers right off the bat. So, being bit twice, wounds not extensive, I could appreciate the scammer issue and realized that in being bit, I obviously had something to learn - and thus I became familiar with the expression of red flags. But, all the reading of the posts were not enough to teach what experience brings best.

With the one lady that I did spend a great deal of time, effort and two trips with, I did damage the potential of the relationship by being overly concerned. Had I not been paranoid it could be that things would have been different between us. I say could because I had a few concerns about her that were holding me back. It would have taken one more long visit to allow me to become comfortable with proceeding. That third visit did not happen. I see that most likely it was all for the best and perhaps my over concern saved me from problems to come - but my point is that it is clear to me that my actions from a certain level of paranoia were clearly damaging to the courtship. I will never let that happen again.

She and I are good friends, we still share an e-mail or two once in a while. It was a very good learning experience. My motto now is be a silent observer of red flags, do not react - allowing truth to surface. If you start to react to a red flag - a scammer will know you might be getting wise and you essentially warn her.
Do not give her the warning so that truth is allowed to surface. Just my perspective everyone will have to find what they are comfortable with.

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

You made some very good points! My wife and I know some people who are currently trying to help a girl who is living almost entirely under lock and key! What did she do to deserve this ? She was born pretty and married the wrong American. This guy is so parinoid that he wont let her do anything, or go anywhere without him. He wont let her call other RW here in the states, or use the internet. ( she has her friends call her when he's gone )He has a low paying job and lives in a basement apartment, and the list of awful conditions and treatment she lives with is getting longer and longer, and she refuses to leave him because of the way she was raised and her beliefs. I would bet a dollar to a donut hole that if she was to leave this man he would instantly screem "I was scammed!" Guys if you're the insecure type you have no right to destroy another humans life.
Mike

... in response to Re: My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Mike on Feb 19, 2002

You have to let go of so-to-speak that which you want to remain in your life.

This guy will ultimately loose a wonderful woman from suffocation. By doing this he is constantly telling her in so many words - I do not deserve you. She will finally get it and believe it also.

His treatment of the situation does the opposite of what he wants. He is living in an illusion. If he can not trust her, he has nothing. When you give your woman freedom you are giving her respect and showing that you are confident enough in yourself to not feel you need to cage her. This attracts a woman - the opposite repels.

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

Scaught,
I always laugh when I read the paranoia here about how the RW's underlying motives are to get out of Russia.  Isn't the underlying motives of the AM to find a better woman in Russia?  Why is that not the same?  Everyone wants the best mate they possibly can find.  What the criteria is, doesn't matter.  I was married to a AW for over 20 years that I didn't trust.  In my heart, I knew she didn't love me.  Eventually, she did stray.  I vowed to never be in that position again.  The time for questions is before marriage.  If you cannot trust your woman, by no means should you marry her.  "Trust" is a cornerstone for a healthy marriage.  Without trust, you have nothing.
KenC

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

NT

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

``

... in response to My latest post to Paranoia Central, posted by Scaught on Feb 19, 2002

I'm chatting up with a few girls and all of them tell me that they don't feel they have a future at home and it's too hard to raise a family there. That's why they are considering Western men. A honest response. None of them have asked me for money.

-blm

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

You have been to the country  twice before so it is strange for me to think that you don't know the answer to your own question.  I say to myself that you must by now have a feeling of what you have to do.  My thinking is that I guess at this point you really have to make sure she is the one as you feel you do not want to waste time like in the past.  At the same time she needs to have things go fast as she has to make money best way she can.  It is a tuff issue that I have not had to really deal with.  I have so many choices that I would probably just cut her for now but keep in touch best I can, it's a tuff decision on your part but you have to do what you feel is going to work for you.  Yes she could be pushing you and not being sincere in her heart and trying to get over here, and yes they are all like this in some respect.  

So what, does she go to Germany to work, taking care of children or cleaning etc.  I have a friend that tells me signs all over the area advertise for this.  Not a bad deal really but they are away from family and they have to tuff that out. It's not easy from what a friend has told me.  She is 40 so she must have gone to Germany before and worked right?  Big step on her part and I would thing she has the bigger decision.  

Anyway, I would have more to chose from and make it important that you go and meet then.  This girl is pointing this out in her own way taking into consideration the translation issues and things she has going on her side. (Many men write and lead on and never go and see her)  She might feel that she needs you to control the issue of making a date and keeping it by tell her when you will come and meet her.  Yes I am pointing out the common since from my view, but meeting is the most important issue. You need spend time, "you said that yourself," so I guess she either spends time and/or you find more choices right?  

I feel she is into the same corner that we are all in and have to deal with.  We pick and choose and try and decide witch are going to work with our lifestyle, take it slow in the process, make sure they are the one while making a living ourselves.  Ok screw it you go and visit her in Germany.....

... in response to Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by Ryan on Feb 18, 2002

Ryan,

I will go over and meet her as well as some other ladies. I do not think that the Germany issue is a "real" option for her for some reason. I think that she is just trying to get me to make commitment to a specific time to come and meet her. I think she is just a strong woman. Fine with me.

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

You've been writing "this one woman" for SIX MONTHS?

She is being perfectly honest with you about the ur, and if honesty scares you, then maybe you'd be better off dating the locals don't 'cha think?  What happened on your two previous trips to the ukraine?  Your two previous visits there mean nothing to her, as it was... you obviously weren't with "HER".  Each visit, is a new one.

My real question is...

If you've been writing this lady for six months and don't consider yourself even a smidgen of an "item", then why are you writing her?

Sounds like you just might be wasting this woman's time in the prime of her life, and she's finally cut to the chase.  She's right, and after six months, she wants you to either fish or cut bait.  

B.

PS: If a woman ever said after six months of writing to me, that she doesn't know if she would be interested until she met me... well, that's another book of personal outrage that doesn't need to be written.. or read.

... in response to Wait a minute... something ain't right h..., posted by BrianN on Feb 18, 2002

Brian

You got it wrong - - I like her honesty.
However, we can not be an item until we have met. I have told her that I am interested in her and wish to meet her. I will do that. I have been totally honest with her. You can not fall in love from a few pictures and e-mails. All I know is that she is very attractive physically in every way a man could want and she seems nice in her e-mails. That is all I know. None of that is enough for me to say anything more than I would like to meet you.

... in response to Re: Wait a minute... something ain't rig..., posted by greg2 on Feb 19, 2002

Emails and pictures do nothing for me either.  Meeting her in person is the only thing that's going to show you if there's any chemistry.

Life is tough in Ukraine and I read an old article a few days ago saying that a million women want to leave.  You can do Google.com searches and find plenty of depressing articles also.

... in response to Then go meet her, posted by BubbaGump on Feb 19, 2002

I am with 100% relative to the chemistry issue. After you find that the chemistry is there you have move to the next step to evaluate the really important issues above and beyond this that make a relationship last.

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

Isn't it a conundrum? On the one hand, we need to meet a lady that is open and willing (at least) to consider leaving their home, family and all that they've known, for a new start in another country. On the other hand, if the lady expresses that desire too strongly, we consider it a 'red flag.'

I am not saying that to dissuade or to encourage. Only that what she has written suggests to me that she is a realist, has identified what is necessary (from her current perspective of national and world events) to insure that she and her daughter enjoy a better life. I see nothing the least bit unusual or put-offish in that.

Greg, you open your post by saying that nothing in her message overly concerns you. I agree with that view.

You also offer that she has a daughter and has been quite forthcoming with you about her desires, wishes and plans. I hope you are reciprocating.

She has made it quite plain that she is beginning to build plans around the possibility of something working out with you. It sounds like you are being equally honest and forthright with her about your plans and interests. Your further challenge (it seems you already know this) will be to balance between being completely honest with her about your intentions and plans - while at the same time recognizing that she may elect a more expeditious route to a better life.

Best of luck with it.

- Dan

... in response to Reality Check . . ., posted by Dan on Feb 18, 2002

Time will tell all I suspect. All I have to do is meet her and let us see what there is. I do prefer her honesty in her intentions.

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

Greg,

My first impression is that she is being very honest. BIGTIME plus. Sounds alot like my wife in fact. She, my wife that is, made it perfectly clear that she was willing to change her life. Too leave Russia. She also made it clear that she had many opportunities to do so. Meaning foriegn men that is. Although I didn't actually realize this until we sat down one afternoon and began reading all her letters from other men. And yes, being financially cabable of taking care of a "family" was VERY important. But, so was love. The TWO had to go hand in hand. She wasn't willing to to meet, marry, and move to the other side of the planet strictly for money. There had to be love. She had to be "in love". Nor would she marry and relocate her and her son only to be dirt poor as well. Once again, she could have married some very wealthy men. Much wealthier than me. That's for sure. But, she married for love. AND, she knew that I could take care of a family as well. There's a balance here. At least that's the way I see it. But, once again, the love factor was every bit as important as the financial one. For me, my wife was very candid in what she wanted. She was very candid from the very beginning in fact. And she wasn't going to compromise. I appreciated this very much. I appreciated her honesty. I still do.

John

... in response to Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by johnE on Feb 18, 2002

John,

I am sensing that this lady is like yours. I will find out.

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

Guess if you put the shoe on the other foot...
Can't blame a person for wanting to better their lives...
Isn't that the American dream...???

... in response to Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by RickM on Feb 18, 2002

Yes and Rick,

She wants something and so do I. We are both willing to look to another country for what it has to offer. So, how could I think that what she is doing is wrong. She is being honest about it which is preferable.

... in response to wanting out of fsu, posted by greg2 on Feb 18, 2002

Yep, she makes it pretty clear that her intent is to get out with her daughter.  I did not think that it is so easy for them to just pick up and go to Germany or Switzerland?  I'm sure if it was so easy, many would be doing this rather then trying to develop a relationship with a foriegn man.  What kind of work would she be doing?  Or do you suspect that this is a way for her to put pressure on you to shet or get off the pot?  Can't blame her really since at her age, she will not have this opportunity much longer.

Greg, you're a better man then me because I'd rather believe that she would rather live her life in her country then settle for a guy just to get the heck out of dodge.  Now, I'm not saying the she is "settling" for you, but it would sure make me wonder if I were in your shoes since her motivation to escape is pretty compelling.  Personally, I'd tell the women what my plans are in regards to visiting and tell her if that isn't soon enough for her likes, then I guess a women is got to do what a women has got to do!  Put the ball back in her court.  Don't be forced into "saving" her.  On the same hand, don't be misleading her if you don't have plans already on making a trip to meet her.

Glad I'm not in your shoes on this one.  Good luck to ya!

... in response to Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by DE on Feb 18, 2002

It is not that I necessarily think that she is just wanting to get out and go with just anyone. She says she is being selective and thinks I am worth meeting. Remember - she says she has had a lot of letters. If you saw her picture you could appreciate this. I just think that she is being very honest.

Yea I do sense she is just trying to put the pressure on me right now - I do not blame her. She is interested in me and wants to find out soon if there is anything that might come of it. Yes, I would not write to a lady and not go see her - but not sure when I will be able to - this year for sure but when?

... in response to Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by DE on Feb 18, 2002

The way i see it if you are plannintg a trip then let her know.  If you are at all interested in meeting her then also let her know.  If you anre interested in knowing more about thye Germany/Switzerland thing ask for more information.  Communication is the MOST important thing when trying to pursue a long distance relationship.  Along with Trust, understanding and honesty.

... in response to Re: Re: wanting out of fsu, posted by jj on Feb 18, 2002

You have and another mentioned questions about the Germany option she mentions. I think I will ask her about that.