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I have a very serious Qustion. I have started working with a service in my search for a RW. after learning alot about me. the service wrote me and ask me a question. what if the lady respects my religion, but will not pratice it. Now, you have to understand  why I was ask this question.  My degree is in music. I have been involed in music in church. also , I have a professtional group. this is not a mam and pop group as we have a television program  on tv each week. we mostly do concerts and dinner shows.  but do sings in some churches. also , in my family, there are three other groups.  My mother is one of the well know paino playes in the south east. as yo can see , i come from a family of preachers and singer. I am one that would never push my beleives on any one.  Since I have been ask this question. I am wondering if it is fair  for me to bring a lady over here and expect her to just go along with all this. this is the one area I have not read much about. I went to the archires and did a search. did not find a lot about it. Can any of you tell me a little about this in russia.

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

First of all, Terry, no, it would not be fair to either of you.  Do not be unequally yolked.  The rest of this post is for those wondering about the scarfs and the Lavra.  The Lavra museum was highly recommended as a 900 year old holy place that I must see before leaving Kiev.  I was very disappointed with the place.  It is a bunch of caves under a church that are designed as a tourist trap.  All of the mummies are the same size (small) and in the same dark blue and yellow costume and in the same glass showcases.  All of the Ukrainians believe them to be saints since they are supposed to be the monks that lived in the monastery in ancient times.  Many of the people visiting said prayers to the so called saints being ignorant of the fact that a dead corpse (saint or no saint) is not going to answer anyone's prayers.  I did appreciate the fact that the monastery and all of the church museums required the females to wear a scarf and gown before entering.  If they were not wearing a dress and scarf, a deposit could be left to borrow them.  William gave the correct answer on this question but I will second his reply and spell it out for the people that don't feel like getting a Bible and reading it.  (I already had my Bible open to that section before I saw William's reply.)  In summation, God set forth this rule and the reason the Western churches stopped doing it was due to giving in to the desires of the people in addition to misinterpreting the Bible and thinking that it meant that a scarf was not necessary because her long hair was her covering.  That statement about hair was intended to support the rule not refute it.  1 Corinthians 11:2-16:     Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.  Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.  But every  woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head.  For that is even all one as if she were shaven.  For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn, but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man.  For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man.  Neither was the man created for the woman but the woman for the man.  For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.  Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the lord.  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman (born from a woman), but all things of God.  Judge in yourselves:  is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?  Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?  But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:  for her hair is given her for a covering.  But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no custom, neither the churches of God.

... in response to Re: Russian women and religion, posted by Ramblin on Feb 16, 2002

Good post Ramblin,

I had an interesting experience at the Lavra last summer. I wanted to enter the place where they keep a lot of their icons. It is some kind of special prayer room deep inside the catacombs. As I was going to enter the corridor that led to that area I was stopped by the monk/priest and ordered to leave! This made me realize why, about 30 seconds before, I had heard Ukrainian voices saying "there is an American coming!" When I first heard this I did not realize they were talking about me. When I was stopped - in a very rude and unfriendly way, I realized that the "American" statement had been like some kind of advanced warning expressed by one of the monks to the other one who was close to the corridor entrance. It was like I was the enemy just because of my nationality. I looked the man in the eye and tried to communicate to him that I was a Believer in Christ. He shouted at me to "Go!" I was embarrased, but emboldened. So I tried to hand him a Bible trac written in Russian (the Four Spiritual Laws published by Dr. Bill Bright's organization Campus Crusade for Christ). His response was to shout "Leave!" I said "Jesus loves you too" and left. It seemed that the only two English words he knew were "go" and "leave", but I am not so sure. For someone who must have thought that I was a lost pagan you would think that he would try lead me to Christ given the fact that I was in the belly of the holy of holies and surely ripe for the picking (smile).

The unfortunate reality is that, for the most part, the Eastern church is esteeped in superstition and mysticism, and this is especially true of the Russian and Ukrainian branches, noting of course that the former claims to rule the latter.

I have a friend in Kiev, a young Ukrainian man, who I have witnessed to. He is not there yet, but I was glad to hear that he made it a point to visit an Orthodox priest. I had apparently planted a seed that sparked the desire to learn more. Guess what? The priest refused to answer any of his spiritual questions! I told him that this must have been a fluke, an unusual event. He claimed that it was actually the norm there that the priests refuse to have spiritual conversations with the people. I do not know if this is true. These are his words, and I would point out that he is a youngster - only about 21.

Regards,

WmGO

... in response to Re: women , religion and the Lavra, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

The Orthodox church is pretty sensitive about western religions sending missionaries and attempts
to convert Orthodox Christians into 'real' christians.
The arrogance and 'hollier than thou' attitude is quit offensive on several levels, and this could
be the cause for the reaction you received.
Just My 2¢

... in response to Re: Re: women , religion and the Lavra, posted by William on Feb 17, 2002

Yes, could be. But I was only a tourist trying to go into the prayer room to pray. Their conduct was based soley on my American looks.

More than anyone else, a priest/monk/pastor/minister/etc. should act and talk like Christ.

My 2 kopecs :)

... in response to Re: Re: Re: women , religion and the Lav..., posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

WmGo, I think you failed to realize that you need permission to enter most places in a monastery. You are not allowed behind the Iconostasis where the altar is either. Churches are for the laity, monasteries are for the seclusion and works of monastics. You were intruding upon private places in their home with arrogance. I'm sure I would have no problem taking a tour of the prayer rooms simply by asking humbly when would it be convenient to see them.

-blm

... in response to Public and not public places...., posted by BarryM on Feb 17, 2002

When I payed my visit to Lavra (Twice) I hired a guide to show me the caves and I thought they were very7 informative answering my many questions about the Ukrainain Othodox church..  I must admit I would like to know more as I was facinated by all that I saw.  I was given the opportunity to go behind the alter in the above ground site currently under restoration.  My woman friend was not allowed but I felt very priverlidged to be given a private tour by one of teh curators.  This was my forst day in Kiev and I was bowled over by the architecture and all that came with it.  The curator observed my interest and appreciation and extended an invitation for a private viewing.  This I loved very much as I am actively involved in the National Trust.  I also considered this generous offer part of the continual friendship that I found whilst I was in Ukraine.  IMHO

... in response to Public and not public places...., posted by BarryM on Feb 17, 2002

Barry,

You have made an incorrect assumption. One based on the fact that you have never been to Kiev and the Lavra Monastery.

I know perfectly well that the area behind the alter in the Orthodox Church (and any other church) is only for the priests. And I have enough horse sense to know that you just don't go wondering around someone else's property without permission.

FYI, the Lavra is one of the major (probably *the* major) tourist attractions in all of Ukraine and Kiev. All day everyday it is filled with Ukrainians and people from other countries. The Lavra is a large complex of green onion domed cathedrals and churches on two big hills overlooking the west bank of the Dniper. The Lavra's main attraction (which is highly publicized to draw people in) is the catocombs that are lined with mummified remains of ancient monks. At any given time there are several hundred people winding their way shoulder to shoulder through the catacombs. The prayer room that I was denied access to is a *part* of the tour through the catocombs. All Ukrainians have access to it without asking anyone for permission - they just walk on in.

On the occassion in question, I was in line just like everyone else (hundreds of people) moving toward this prayer room that is full of ancient icons. The dozens of people ahead of me went on in while the monk just sat there. As I got to the front I was stopped - just because of my nationality.

Another thing that bothered me about the Lavra is that it charges foreigners(Westerners) twenty times the normal admission fee. A church should set a good example,and perpetuating the double standard that there is one price for locals and another higher price for foreigners is plain wrong.

But I will say this: it is an incredibly beautiful complex and a must see.

WmGO

... in response to Re: Public places...., posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

That is not the first time I've heard about peculiar behavior towards Westerners by Ukrainians. I don't know why you would be denied access.

-blm

... in response to It sounds like a Ukrainian thing..., posted by BarryM on Feb 17, 2002

I heard they were starting a new Lavra in northwest Georgia!

I know, real bad. Sorry everyone. The devil made me do it :)

... in response to Here is a Really bad joke:, posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

=:-0

... in response to Re: women , religion and the Lavra, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

I don't know if true Christianity exists in the Orthodox churches of Ukraine or not.  I was amazed to see a Chinese man in the middle of Krashatuck street with a microphone saying "God loves you."  It was on the weekend when that street is closed to traffic and full of families walking around the downtown area.  I thought it was amazing because here was a man shouting the gospel in English and having it interpreted to the people right in the capitol of a former atheist country that has suppressed religion for so long.  I'm also encouraged to be corresponding with a young Christian lady that is on an evangelist team in Ukraine.  So true Christianity is starting to sprout there.  At least your friend has questions which is a good start.

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

Many, Many Russian women are really not that religious. This really isn't to surprising when you consider the nearly seventy five years of communist rule they lived under and the official atheism that went along with it. I've noticed a lot of guys on this board who couldn't be called anything less than devout Christians, who openly admit they are looking for a woman who is as strong as they in their beliefs. Given the large indifference to religion in the republics of the FSU, I can't understand why they're looking there. Such men would probably do better to look in countries like the Phillipines or Latin American countries -- largely Catholic with still many adherents to the faith there!

... in response to The truth is..., posted by NK on Feb 16, 2002

But what if you are not Catholic, a Catholic might be ok if you are Methodist, since they are a spawn of the Catholic church, but what if you happen to be Baptist, Wesleyan, Pentecostal, Episcopal, Moravian, Lutheran or of any other sect.......,What then???????

... in response to Re: The truth is..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

I think NK is right.  Most are not that religiou although there is bit of a revival they are not devoutly religious.  Whilst they will visit churches as part of a tourist visit, those I met did not go to church every sunday or saturday as the case may be...  I also think tht many know of the USA Christian beleif and state that they are Christian to be on the safe side...  When I was in Ukraine the Pope visited Kiev.  There were not large crowds and the Orthodox church gave him a cool welcome...  Most Catholics are in the western part of Ukraine (Lviv) near Poland..

RW/UW and Divorce

As to Catholics or Orthodox what is the status of marring a divorcee??...Given that many of the RW/UW are divorced does this preclude Caltholics from marring...

... in response to Religion and D i v o r c e...   status??, posted by jj on Feb 16, 2002

Catholics get divorced too. And I've known a few Catholic women who even had abortions.

... in response to Re: The truth is..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

The are a lot Phillipino women that are very religious.  They are mostly Catholic but I think they would adapt to another faith.  There do seem to be a few religious Russian women but not many.  

I have never heard of the Wesleyan sect?  I have only seen Moravians in North Carolina.

... in response to I think NK is right, posted by BubbaGump on Feb 16, 2002

nt

... in response to John Wesley - Wesleyan - Methodist- Chur..., posted by BarryM on Feb 16, 2002

John Wesley was a Methodist circuit minister until he started his own ministry due to his teachings going against the grain of the Methodist church or so I understand. Wesleyans are more or less in the middle between Methodist and Baptist. In the Methodist church, when you join, you actually pledge allegance to the Catholic church----if you don't believe it do a little checking. The Wesleyans very active in central NC.

... in response to Actually..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

Lynn,

Methodists do not claim *any* allegiance to Rome. Their doctrine is virtually identical to Baptist: Grace alone, Word alone, Faith alone, Doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers, Baptism and Lord's Supper symbolic. All in stark contrast to the Roman Church.

Regards!

WmGo

P.S. Their are many real Christians in FSU. A minority, but they are their. And the Spiritual revival is on!

... in response to Re:Methodists, posted by WmGo on Feb 16, 2002

I have read the text with the reference to pledging allegence to the Catholic church with my own eyes, I was quite supprised myself.
Yes I know quite a bit about the revival going on in the FSU, in fact our Easter program at my church is supposed to include a group of missionaries who are working in the FSU.

... in response to Re: Re:Methodists, posted by Lynn on Feb 17, 2002

Lynn,

Do you happen to recall where this pledge is found? For research purposes I am interested. I have attended dozens of UMC services over the years and have never seen or heard it.

Thanks!

WmGO

... in response to Re: Re: Re:Methodists, posted by WmGo on Feb 17, 2002

I do not recall exactly being that it has been five or six years ago, so I called a friend of mine and he is going to get me a copy or e-mail it to me. I was very surprised the first time I heard it and I'm willing to bet that a lot of regular attendees of Methodist churches have never noticed it either. My friend has a little more time on his hands than I do at the moment and he said he would be glad to do the research. I will e-mail you what he sends me if you will send me your address.

Lynn

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re:Methodists, posted by Lynn on Feb 18, 2002

I'm surprised you haven't recognized it. Many protestant churches recite it at services. The one below is the original unaltered translation(Latin) from the First Ecumenical Council in Nicea in the year 325 and the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in the year 381.

When the Pope of Rome altered this Creed and declared a Papal monarchy over all of the Bishops, it led to the great schism.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

-blm

... in response to It is called the Nicene Creed., posted by BarryM on Feb 18, 2002

Yes! You may recall that I mentioned the Nicene and the Apostles' Creed in one of my posts on the religion subject the other day. I often recite them  minus the reference to the "Catholic" church.

In some Protestant liturgies that contain these creeds the word "Catholic" will appear in either italics or quotes with a footnote that that denomination does not subscribe to the notion of Catholic hierarchy or authority. When members of such churches recite the creed they are normally conscious of the fact that that they are not acknowledging allegiance to Rome. Other liturgies substitute "Holy Christian Church" in the place of the "Catholic" reference.

Both scenarios are based on the Scriptures that teach that "the church" is the body of believers, not a physical structure or hierarchy.

Thanks for posting the Creed.

WmGO

P.S. Lynn the Methodists were an offspring of the Anglican Church so I am fairly confident that it was a Nicene and/or Apostles Creed recitation where the liturgy book was not properly edited to address the Rome issue.

... in response to Re: Nicene Creed., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

You are probably right about the "Creed". It's just that in the Methodist church that I once attended, as a youngster, I do not recall hearing it until five or six years ago. I understand that most churches in larger cities have a more regimented church service with recitations of such done fairly often if not every service. I personally do not like the regimented services and opt for the more down to earth services without all the pomp and circumstance. Apparently I'm not the only one with these feelings, the church that I became a member of about four years ago has grown over 10 fold in the last six or seven years and is the fastest growing church in it's denomination is the district.

... in response to Re: Nicene Creed., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

Catholic means whole, complete, lacking nothing. The reference to a "catholic church" means a complete or whole church. It is different than the "Roman Catholic Church". The use of the Nicene Creed with reference to "catholic" is not incorrect.

From the OCA website:

... In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church ...
Church as a word means those called as a particular people to perform a particular task. The Christian Church is the assembly of God's chosen people called to keep his word and to do his will and his work in the world and in the heavenly kingdom.

In the Scriptures the Church is called the Body of Christ (Rom 12; 1 Cor 10, 12; Col 1) and the Bride of Christ (Eph 5; Rev 21). It is likened as well to God's living Temple (Eph 2; 1 Pet 2) and is called "the pillar and bulwark of Truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

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One Church
The Church is one because God is one, and because Christ and the Holy Spirit are one. There can only be one Church and not many. And this one Church, because its unity depends on God, Christ, and the Spirit, may never be broken. Thus, according to Orthodox doctrine, the Church is indivisible; men may be in it or out of it, but they may not divide it.

According to Orthodox teaching, the unity of the Church is man's free unity in the truth and love of God. Such unity is not brought about or established by any human authority or juridical power, but by God alone. To the extent that men are in the truth and love of God, they are members of His Church.

Orthodox Christians believe that in the historical Orthodox Church there exists the full possibility of participating totally in the Church of God, and that only sins and false human choices (heresies) put men outside of this unity. In non-Orthodox Christian groups the Orthodox claim that there are certain formal obstacles, varying in different groups, which, if accepted and followed by men, will prevent their perfect unity with God and will thus destroy the genuine unity of the Church (e.g., the papacy in the Roman Church).

Within the unity of the Church man is what he is created to be and can grow for eternity in divine life in communion with God through Christ in the Holy Spirit. The unity of the Church is not broken by time or space and is not limited merely to those alive upon the earth. The unity of the Church is the unity of the Blessed Trinity and of all of those who live with God: the holy angels, the righteous dead, and those who live upon the earth according to the commandments of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Holy Church
The Church is holy because God is holy, and because Christ and the Holy Spirit are holy. The holiness of the Church comes from God. The members of the Church are holy to the extent that they live in communion with God.

Within the earthly Church, people participate in God's holiness. Sin and error separate them from this divine holiness as it does from the divine unity. Thus, the earthly members and institutions of the Church cannot be identified as such with the Church as holy.

The faith and life of the Church on earth is expressed in its doctrines, sacraments, scriptures, services, and saints which maintain the Church's essential unity, and which can certainly be affirmed as "holy" because of God's presence and action in them.

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Catholic Church
The Church is also catholic because of its relation to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The word catholic means full, complete, whole, with nothing lacking. God alone is full and total reality; in God alone is there nothing lacking.

Sometimes the catholicity of the Church is understood in terms of the Church's universality throughout time and space. While it is true that the Church is universal -- for all men at all times and in all places -- this universality is not the real meaning of the term "catholic" when it is used to define the Church. The term "catholic" as originally used to define the Church (as early as the first decades of the second century) was a definition of quality rather than quantity. Calling the Church catholic means to define how it is, namely, full and complete, all-embracing, and with nothing lacking.

Even before the Church was spread over the world, it was defined as catholic. The original Jerusalem Church of the apostles, or the early city-churches of Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, or Rome, were catholic. These churches were catholic -- as is each and every Orthodox church today -- because nothing essential was lacking for them to be the genuine Church of Christ. God Himself is fully revealed and present in each church through Christ and the Holy Spirit, acting in the local community of believers with its apostolic doctrine, ministry (hierarchy), and sacraments, thus requiring nothing to be added to it in order for it to participate fully in the Kingdom of God.

To believe in the Church as catholic, therefore, is to express the conviction that the fullness of God is present in the Church and that nothing of the "abundant life" that Christ gives to the world in the Spirit is lacking to it (Jn 10:10). It is to confess exactly that the Church is indeed "the fullness of him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23; also Col 2:10).

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Apostolic Church
The word apostolic describes that which has a mission, that which has "been sent" to accomplish a task.

Christ and the Holy Spirit are both "apostolic" because both have been sent by the Father to the World. It is not only repeated in the Scripture on numerous occasions how Christ has been sent by the Father, and the Spirit sent through Christ from the Father, but it also has been recorded explicitly that Christ is "the apostle ... of our confession" (Heb 3:1).

As Christ was sent from God, so Christ Himself chose and sent His apostles. "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you ... receive ye the Holy Spirit," the risen Christ says to His disciples. Thus, the apostles go out to the world, becoming the first foundation of the Christian Church.

In this sense, then, the Church is called apostolic: first, as it is built upon Christ and the Holy Spirit sent from God and upon those apostles who were sent by Christ, filled with the Holy Spirit; and secondly, as the Church in its earthly members is itself sent by God to bear witness to His Kingdom, to keep His word and to do His will and His works in this world.

Orthodox Christians believe in the Church as they believe in God and Christ and the Holy Spirit. Faith in the Church is part of the creedal statement of Christian believers. The Church is herself an object of faith as the divine reality of the Kingdom of God given to men by Christ and the Holy Spirit; the divine community founded by Christ against which "the gates of hell shall not prevail" (Mt 16:18).

The Church, and faith in the Church, is an essential element of Christian doctrine and life. Without the Church as a divine, mystical, sacramental, and spiritual reality, in the midst of the fallen and sinful world there can be no full and perfect communion with God. The Church is God's gift to the world. It is the gift of salvation, of knowledge and enlightenment, of the forgiveness of sins, of the victory over darkness and death. It is the gift of communion with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit. This gift is given totally, once and for all, with no reservations on God's part. It remains forever, until the close of the ages: invincible and indestructible. Men may sin and fight against the Church, believers may fall away and be separated from the Church, but the Church itself, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15) remains forever.

... [God] has put all things under His [Christ's] feet and has made Him the head over all things for the Church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
... for through Him we ... have access in one Spirit, to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow-citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

... Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her, that he might sanctify her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present the Church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish ... This is a Great Mystery ... Christ and the Church ... (Eph 1:21-23; 2:19-22; 5:25-32).

-blm

... in response to The word "catholic" is used co..., posted by BarryM on Feb 18, 2002

Excellent post Barry,

I have read from the Orthodox web site the portions that you transferred over and agree and believe in the portions that you posted (with the one caveat below).

I understand that the term "catholic" means universal and whole church (body of Christ, Bride of Christ, etc.) and from *that* perspective it *is* doctrinally correct. But for Protestants, once the "c" in "catholic" is capitalized we think of the Roman Church and, knowing that the original word refers to the Body and, also knowing the RCC's misuse of the word to refer to itself as a physical hierachacal organization of men, we freak out (rightfully) and prefer to just say "Holy Christian Church" - which your post so accurately defines (Body/Bride of Christ - the Believers).

If you read carefully the latter part of the Orthodox doctrine that you copied and pasted ("faith in the Church"), you will see where a person could reasonably begin to think that at that point the "Church" is beginning to change from the Biblical definition (Body of Believers, Bride of Christ, etc.) to a particular denomination. This is not perfectly clear, but you can understand the caution that the Protestant feels. The allegiance is to be to Christ and not any denomination - or man, or group of men however organized. After all , we have His Word so we don't have to rely on what man says, we can read it for ourselves. That way, if a man or a group of men say something that is different from the Scriptures we know which one is right.

Again good post.

WmGO

... in response to Re: The word "catholic" is use..., posted by WmGo on Feb 18, 2002

protestants do not know what their particular denomination stands for doctrinally. I don't think I know anyone who knows the difference between a Presbytarian and an Episcopalian, a Baptist and a Methodist, a Pentacostal and an Evangelical, etc. They think they're all the same as long as they're not Roman Catholic, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witnesses. I've known people to switch denominations just because a church is closer. They never knew the difference between the two and no one in the church ever explained it to them.

-blm

... in response to It's funny how many..., posted by BarryM on Feb 19, 2002

it's true

... in response to Actually..., posted by Lynn on Feb 16, 2002

Methodists no longer exist as such.  I wonder when the Christian Churches of the World will join togeher in the celbration of Christ, Uniting, Catholic,. Baptist, Chriatian Scientist ir Orthordox... It is jusr empire Building in the name of Christ...

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

Well Terry, since I see on your profile that you won (perhaps in a lottery) two companies, perhaps you can afford to take English lessons. Once you've mastered our language, say fourth grade level or so, then write to Jerry Falwell  http://www.falwell.com/ for some good advice about this matter. He'll probably advise you to advertise for a snake handler's daughter in a Pentacostal church located in rural West Virginia. Better that you find a woman there than to inflict yourself onto some unsuspecting innocent RW/UW. I'd be embarassed for America if you went over there. They're not ignorant....

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

Yes, there are Mormons in Bulgaria. There are also Ukrainian Catholics, Romanian Baptists, Lutherans, Evangelicals, and various other protestant groups in the FSU.

I was surprised by a lady who wrote me today from Bulgaria. she is Mormon.

-blm

... in response to Mormons in Bulgaria, posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

How similar or different are Ukranian Catholics versus Roman Catholics? I was raised a Roman Catholic myself (non practicing now) and am just curious if anyone knows

Niall

... in response to Re: Mormons in Bulgaria, posted by NK on Feb 16, 2002

considers the head of the church to be the Pope in Rome but uses Byzantine rites for Liturgy. There is a fair sized Ukrainian Catholic community in Texas.

-blm

... in response to Mormons in Bulgaria, posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

The Mormons regularly send missionaries to Bulgaria, I had breakfast in Vienna with nine of them one morning on my way home a few years ago. Curious Bulgarian superstition: women are not to sit on stone, concrete, soil, etc. if they are of child bearing years------the belief is that it could somehow freeze their ovaries and make them sterile.

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

you have to discuss this subject with RW. I don't see a major problem with her accepting your religion and what you do unless she is very religious person to start with.In this case it will be very difficult to change RW religious prefferences.

... in response to Terry,, posted by Natalya on Feb 15, 2002

I believe that it would be harder to convert the strong beliefs of a devout Christian to a sect other than that of their choice than it would to convince a agnostic that God is real. There is no grounds for generalizations about religion in the FSU, people are people and each has his own beliefs or lack of. These are the kinds of issues that need to be dealt with early on, if a person has strong feelings about their faith, if you ignore a possible problem----it will come back to bite you.
Once, on a afternoon date in Kiev, I wanted to see the interior of this church we were walking by, my date would not enter the church until she was able to borrow a scarf to cover her hair from another lady who was going in as well. It made me wonder what her reaction would be to a church such as the one I attend. Something to think about-------how would you feel if someone asked you to change your core beliefs for them------if you didn't have strong conviction it wouldn't matter much, but if did it would take a lot of soul searching.

... in response to Religous preferences, I agree change wou..., posted by Lynn on Feb 15, 2002

Not all RW/UW wear scarves in an Orthodox Church. It really depends on the region and customs of those who attend the Church. At my Church, a few women wear scarves, but most don't. None of the Russian or Ukrainian women wear a scarf in my Church.

-blm

... in response to Scarves..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

When I was in Ukraine with my then fiancée at the time, we went on a series of tours of different churches and monasteries, including the catacombs where the saints are buried or their mummified are displayed.  I noticed that the more relevant (ie more important) the religious site was, the more likely the woman would be mandated to wear a scarf.  To go into the monastery in Kiev, and especially into the catacombs, women would only be allowed if they wore scarves.

This is just my observations, however.  I could be wrong.

... in response to Scarves..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

Barry,

Russian church abroad is totally different entity from Russian Orthodox church. It was established shortly after Revolution and it is not "under" Russian Mitropolit (or Head of Russian Orthodox Church) it has its own Mirtopolit. Throughout quite a long time it has established little bit different rulings and establishments, so there is a difference. If that is really something of interest to you, you can learn a lot on their website http://www.synod.com/

As for the scarves, for ages in Russia or even long before Russia, when it was Rus', you would see that women always had their heads covered. It was when woman was caught cheating on her husband, she would be placed in public with her head uncovered and hair let down. It was a picture of somebody comitting sin. If you watch Russian wedding, the bride is always brought to the altar covered under long veil - it's a sign of purity. If you look at the girl's and women's  Russian traditional costumes - their heads are always covered, and by the style of the scarf or hat you could define if the woman was married or still single.

There can be books written on it as there was a lot of importance placed on the woman's appearance and each region had it's own specifics.

Therefore it is very logical that woman in church will appear with her head covered in front of God - as a sign of pure thoughts and obediance. Even more, Russian Orthodox church also suggests that women wear minimum make-up and do not wear pants coming to the church. But not many women know or follow it. In any case, nowadays any church would welcome person coming through its doors because it's the actual visit to the church which counts.

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Scarves..., posted by RW on Feb 15, 2002

I am a member of the OCA:
http://www.oca.org

which is in communion with the world's Orthodox Churches including the Russian Patriarchate.

ROCOR is not in communion with the OCA or the Russian Patriarchate but has a open invitation to join from Patriarch Alexii of Russia and OCA Metropolitan Theodosius.

From what I am able to understand, a Patriarch is the Head of a national Orthodox Church in a predominantly Christian country. For example, Patriarch Maxim is the Head of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. There are 5 Patriarchates which are considered the founding roots of the Orthodox Church, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, and Russia. Rome broke away and became the Roman Catholic Church. Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Antioch were part of the Byzantine empire which finally fell to the Muslim Ottoman empire in the 1400's. Russia was the anchor for the Eastern Orthodox Church during that period.

A Metropolitan is usually the Head of the Church within a region of a country. I believe the Metropolitan of Moscow region is Right Reverend Kyril. A Bishop is the Head of a Diocese usually within a large city or county where there are many individual Parishes. Our Bishop is Dmitri. A Priest is the Head of an Orthodox Parish or individual Church.

All Patriarchs, Metropolitans, and Bishops are considered equals and are celibate Monastics. An Orthodox Priest can be married, but not a Bishop or Monastic. The Patriarch of Constantinople is considered the First among Equals.

The Head of the Orthodox Church in America is Metropolitan Theodosius and is the First among Equals for the OCA. The OCA is not large enough at this time to have a Patriarch, even though it is autocephalous(self governing). We are almost there. Pennsylvania has enough OCA Parishes to have it's own Metropolitan and several Dioceses but the rest of the country is not there yet.

I hope this helps. I'm not sure of the Orthodox Church regional structure hierarchy in Russia but I'm sure it's along the lines I have explained.

-blm

... in response to Thanks, for the info, RW. Some info for ..., posted by BarryM on Feb 16, 2002

And where does Lava sit in the scheme of things.  It has so many saints...

... in response to Scarves..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

I guess women in your church don't wear scarfes because they are sort of americanized.Lynn is absolutely correct RW do wear scarfes when they walk in church!If that don't have scarf they simply don't go inside church and pray outside.

... in response to Re: Scarves..., posted by Natalya on Feb 15, 2002

Most churches (Lavra inc) provide scarfs on loan...

... in response to Scarves..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

There are the rules for any Orthodox temple: entering the temple, all men should take off their hats, but women - on the contrary - should wear something on their heads (some hat, or shawl, or scarf...)  The roots of the last rule, by the way, are based on security reasons, - else women can catch a fire from burning candles with their long hair!

... in response to Church rules..., posted by PrincetonLion on Feb 15, 2002

Hair does not flame...  coats and other clothing maybe..  but I think the rule about scarfs is based more on a regligous doctrine...  Maybe with all the ahir spray hair can become flamable... again I do not think this is the reason.

... in response to Church rules..., posted by PrincetonLion on Feb 15, 2002

I've heard stories about fur coats catching on fire in a crowded Church.

-blm

... in response to Scarves..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

The Scarf tradition is a strange one (to me at least).  Why is it that Women are the ones that need to where it only?  When we visited Lavra my friend had to wear a scarf when visiting the caves...  but I did not..  I must admit Lavra was an amasing place definitaly worth the World Heritage listing...

... in response to Re: Scarves... Lavra, posted by jj on Feb 15, 2002

JJ, Natalya, Barry, PrincetonLion:

You ask such good questions, but you forget to consider the obvious answers to your queries.

FYI, the reason for most church customs is the teachings of the Holy Scriptures, not regional/national/cultural variations between peoples. The Bible commands that only men are to be the pastor of a church: I Timothy 3:1-2; Titus 1:5-9 (note Bible term for pastor/minister/priest is "bishop" and "elder"). Also note that in the pre Grace days of the Law only men could be priests (male Levites).

There is also a Biblical commandment for a woman to cover her head while in church: I Corinthians 11:2-13. The women of the Orthodox Church have been quite strict in being obedient to this command throughout the centuries. If you look at pictures, drawings, paintings, and depictions of old Protestant worship services you will also note that up until just a few decades ago women almost always wore something to cover their heads. Now, in the Western world it seems that fashion consciousness has prevailed over Biblical mandate. The good news is that this is not a Salvation issue.

I hope this helps :)

WmGO

... in response to You Guys are so Funny today, posted by WmGo on Feb 15, 2002

And as such I must admit I am niave when it comes to regligous practices and the reason behind them..  I tend to just accept that that is the practice but it is good to understand why...  although I understand your points I am still left undertanding why??  Other then that is what is...

... in response to You Guys are so Funny today, posted by WmGo on Feb 15, 2002

nt

... in response to Re: Scarves... Lavra, posted by jj on Feb 15, 2002

Church that women can never become priest only nuns.Only priest and his helpers (all males) allowed to do the service. Even when child is baptized, ritual of baptizing for a boy differs from baptizing of girl.

... in response to Another tradition in Russian Orthodox, posted by Natalya on Feb 15, 2002

Whan I was visisting Lavra I was given a private tour of teh restoration.  I was allowed in the vestable but my female friend was not...  FYI

... in response to Re: Scarves... Lavra, posted by jj on Feb 15, 2002

nt

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

My limited experience in the Ukraine shows me that every time the issue of religion comes up they say that they are Christians; BerryM could be right in his thinking that it simply means they are not Jewish or Muslim, not sure if they are running to the EO church but what ever.  The pope did visit last year and I got a chance to see him in the pope mobile it was a real treat.  People were real interested as they lined the streets in Kiev.  Anyway aside from all that, I feel that many of the women that I have wrote to or the one family I stayed with they were NOT really into religion, lots of little superstitions and issues revolving around luck but no real religion.  Now sidelining all this again, I feel that if you make a connection with a woman from this area, and have the chemistry, they will follow you to the ends of the earth.  I would not start off by weeding out anyone because of a religious affiliation well except if they were EO then that would get me sort of thinking.  But I don't think any woman from FSU would have an issue with religion if she connects with you in some way.  It would have more to do with how you spend your time and if she isn't into the church group stuff since that is how you spend your time, then she would simply not choose you.    So to sum it up tell them more about how you spend your time as opposed to getting deep into religious issues.

Good luck,
Ryan

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

My understanding is that although they may attend church, most are not as religious as people in the USA.  All web sites have a search engine (only some actually work) and you can do a search based on different religious words.  Some women will emphasize their christianity in their biography but it's not a large percentage.  Do a search based on words such as: Orthodox, christian, religion and church.  I would suggest you just select the girls you are interested in and ask about their feelings on religion.

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

Most of the women who are religious are Eastern Orthodox. Unfortunately, most people are not practicing in any religion and most of the time the religious affiliation of "Christian" simply means not Jewish or Muslim. The good news is that more and more Russians are starting to practice Orthodoxy and more Orthodox Churches are being restored to accomodate the growing numbers of laity.

I suggest you do some research about the Orthodox Church both here and in Russia. A good start is:
http://www.oca.org

-blm

... in response to Russia is a secular country.., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

I would have expected a real, true born again Christian to have said : " The good news is that more and more Russians are *receiving Christ* ."

"Orthodox" just like "Catholic" and "Protestant" does not necessarily mean *Christian*.

I urge you to read and study the book of Romans and the Gospel of John (particularly noting chapter 3 detailing the historic conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus).

Have you ever accepted and received Christ as your personal Saviour?

... in response to Re: secular country.., posted by WmGo on Feb 15, 2002

Where does the doctrine of election fit in?  2 Thess. 2:13 God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.  This sounds a bit different then me receiving Christ or accepting Him.

... in response to Just to liven things up, posted by philb on Feb 16, 2002

That is a good question. That is one of the mysteries that is really beyond man's understanding. The Bible clearly teaches that even though receiving God's grace is a personal free will decision, even before the creation of the world God predestined us to believe in Him.

This theological mystery, which seems to be paradoxical to those not well versed in the whole Scripture, led to some really big debates throughout history, particularly during the Reformation era. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and Erasmus all had a thing or two to say about it. The subject was debated in written exchanges by these and many others during that period, and by many since.

Suffice to say that the extreme Calvinist view of absolute predestination, which would necessarily negate free will, has been virtually universally rejected as contradictory of the whole Scripture. I have dozens of Presbyterian friends and none of them, nor their preachers, subscribe to it.

The majority view is that God has predestined all of us to receive His Son, but he has left us with a free will to accept or reject. So everyone has been elected. But not everyone will accept the office. Given the fact that it is free, it is truly sad some decline what we could never earn and certainly do not deserve.

Regards,

WmGo

... in response to Re: secular country.., posted by WmGo on Feb 15, 2002

From the Orthodox rubrics, the Sacrament of Baptism is being "born again". The Sacrament of Chrismation is "receiving Christ". Accepting and receiving Christ is part of the creed and is affirmed at every time we partake of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. The Sacrament of Confession is also accepting and receiving Christ.

We accept and receive Christ at every Orthodox Liturgy. It is very detailed in both the Liturgies of St. John Chrysotom and St. Basil the Great as well as the "Book of Needs" and has been part of the Church since the 3rd century.

-blm

... in response to You have a protestant perspective..., posted by BarryM on Feb 15, 2002

Barry,

It is called *Biblical* perspective. But we probably have a different use in terminology here.

You can only *receive* Christ as Saviour *once* (and truly this is a matter of common sense). . Yes, when people go to a Christian worship service they are *affirming* their faith, but not re-receiving Salvation. God does not go rewrite the Believer's name in the Book of Life every Sunday (nor does he ever erase it).

Concerning baptism, if you read John 3:16 it does not say anything about baptism. Baptism is a *work*. And we are not saved by works. See Ephesians 2:8-9. But baptism *is* an outward symbolic public confession of what has *already* (at a moment in time)(born again) occurred on the inside of the Believer (Spiritual regeneration upon recieving in our heart Christ as Saviour): Collosians 6:12; Romans 6:4-5. So although baptism is important, it alone does nothing. It is just a physical act. If the person has not already sincerely received Christ in their heart, they can be baptised a thousand times and it will do nothing to alter their Spiritual status.

Likewise, reciting the Confessions (which I like to do also  - Nicene and Apostles minus the "Catholic" reference) does not save. Perhaps you are referring to *affirming* one's faith, as opposed to *receiving* Christ. In the Christian world, "receiving Christ" refers to the moment in time that the Believer confesses Christ as their Saviour (see John 3) and thereby immediately attains all of the promises and standing associated with being a child of God, most importanly eternal life.

Hope this helps. There is no substitue for personal Bible study. It is a Biblical command: II Timothy 2:15

Regards,

WmGO

... in response to Russian women and religion, posted by terry on Feb 15, 2002

When something is as important to you as this I think that you need to discuss it with the woman involved.  I sugest bringing it up early as this may be a show stopper on one side or the other.