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Hello all,

The following is a true story, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

There is a man who was married to a Russian woman for many years (about 8 or 9 years)  The marriage was not really all that great from the start but the man married this lady anyway.  I think they would have been divorce earlier but they had a tour company together and they did not want to break up the business so you might say they had a marriage of convenience.

So the man often went to Russia and Ukraine and did a lot of partying when he went.  His so called wife actually hooked up with a man who was working for her husband in the tour company and recently practically stole the business from him while he was away.  

Actually I felt a bit sorry for the man because he was an older man (maybe in his 60's) and I think he had been very lonely for most of his life.  I feel his problem was that he doesn't know how to make a good choice in women and he likes to go after the young hotties or maybe ladies that are way out of his league (I can't blame him though, since this is also in my own nature)  

So as of the past year he had been looking for a new lady and was going to finally get a divorce from his wife.  He found one girl of 26 years old in Russia that he liked a lot and was going to bring her here on a K-1 visa to get married when his divorce was finalized.  

So this man went to meet this 26 year old girl for a second time in Russia but this second meeting went very badly and he felt she was a real scammer and acted very differently from his first meeting with her.  He said she was just very mean spirited and so.

In my most recent conversation with him a few days ago he said he felt he was just too old and he would not consider to marry anyone else yet alone a Russian woman.  I feel he has just been burned out but again I feel that it is simply a result of bad choices.  

Even the most experienced traveller can be fooled if his choices are still bad or he is inclined to select a certain type of girl.  But it still blows me away that a man with so much time and experience with these women can be burned in such a way.

Luckily, I don't have to deal with this issue myself as I have found a wonderful and sincere lady.

... in response to Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts..., posted by Oatmeal on Feb 8, 2002

There are a lot of great gals in FSU who are in their 40s, so why can't this guy just look at those ladies?

JR

... in response to Once upon a time (some sobering thoughts..., posted by Oatmeal on Feb 8, 2002

Jim,
I have a different point of view of your sad story.  The guy didn't "get burned".  He just found out that the girl was not for him.  It is part of a natural selection process.  I dated a lot of AW while I was single.  Just because I didn't marry them, didn't make it a scam, a burn or even make them bad women.  I always thought that there were two types of daters: ones that do it for recreation and the others that are looking for their future mate.  I was always in the second catagory.  LP, for example, would be in the first.  (No slam)  Dating is a natural process that gets out of whack because of the distance between us and Russia.  No one would think twice if a couple didn't continue to date after 3 or 4 or 5 dates here.  The answer one would give to why you were not together with your former dating partner would be. "Things just didn't click between us".  Now if she were Russian it would be, "She scammed me!"
KenC

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

...It *is* a slam.  My current situation does not support that theory either. You fail to recall my history so here it is again:

1975 to 1977: married, she ended it.
1977 to 1989: Lived together, one woman, I ended it.
1989 to 1994: Lived together, one woman, she ended it.
1994 to 1999: Lived together, one woman, I ended it.
1999 to 2001: searching. (is this the "recreation" you speak of?)
Current status: lol, thats my little secret.

Each of these women were younger than the previous one and that pretty much precluded my marrying them. I'd also point out that two of my chosen careers paths were/are infamous for destroying relationships. Nor would I have traded this history for time with only one woman. I was younger, I was in control, and those were my choices and I would do it again in a second. It sure beats the typical path many take, one long marraige ending in divorce, with all the trauma that entails.

Just because I didn't marry them doesn't mean it was "recreational". As I've pointed out before, no amount of love will turn back the clock and marrying someone much younger than me introduces practical issues that can't be resolved. I know this from experience dealing with youngsters, experience you lack. In fact, I find it an extremely selfish thing to do to the younger mate as it is living on borrowed time and she will one day pay a heavy price, in many different fashions, assuming it lasts at all.

Besides, why would I marry them if I had all the benefits? I'll tell you, it sure was a blessing in the end, when we simply parted ways, two of them my doing. I'm danm glad I didn't because nothing lasts forever, a fact many here (including you) may have to one day face. Your one such "experience" seems to preclude you from considering such a possibility, I know better. Marrying any of my women would not have been a factor in the relationship's survival, on the contrary, it would have made the endings much worse. I know I'm far better off in both a financial and emotional sense from this history.

As I've reminded you before, didn't you feel your first marriage would last forever the day you consumated it? How about three years later?  You have no idea what will happen. People change don't they? Didn't your first wife? See my point? When you get past ten years or so I'll be impressed, until then your "success" is an illusion shared by all "recently" married couples/established relationships. As I recall, your first marraige lasted far longer than this and yet failed. I'm not saying one should live in fear of marriage. I simply choose to wait for many years before I even considered marriage as I had all the benefits without the risks and I'm darn glad I did. I say again, there was nothing "recreational" about those relationships.

I have never adopted a playboy attitude to dating at all. I'll admit that a byproduct of my employment has allowed me to have lots of fun during the last few years and I certainly have not had to go to the FSU for "recreational" dating. I've enjoyed it tremendously but it certainly wasn't only for fun. For me every date, here and abroad, was part of searching for a long term mate, as is typical of many guys. Maybe marriage wasn't part of the *immediate* plan (especially with FSU girls) but I dispute that puts me in a "recreational" mode. lol, I assure you that living with different women for many years (and raising their children in one case) is not recreational. Other than being forced to marry in this latest game, which I deeply resent (not marriage but the government setting a time limit for it), it was all the same to me.

Like many men who are involved in this endeavor, you spent a long time with a woman in one marriage. That limited your experience in living with and watching how people change. One thing I've noticed about guys married for a long time and then divorced is they can't wait to get married again, even if the previous one was somewhat bad. They are not comfortable alone and never give themselves the time to adapt to it, they rush out and reenter the dating game to recoup an enviornment they are "used" to. (The general good stuff about having someone around, not the bad stuff from a particular previous spouse.)

In other words, I've seldom met a divorced guy (after a lenthy marriage) who wasn't fairly motivated to marry again before the pain totally wore off. Nothing wrong with that but its too bad they don't wait a bit to readjust to a single life. Single may suck in *some* ways but the adaptation allows a search with a clearer perpsective and without the internal stresses that often drive them to make bad decisions. (lol, no slam)

Its this that seperated me from many here. I was not in a hurry to return, I had no need, and thats why I took so long to develop what I now have. Even then, I realize that at this point its all a crap shoot because I've been here before. You be a romantic guy Ken, good for you. Me too, I just don't let it cloud my undertsanding of reality. Since romance does not power a relationship over the long haul, I hope you one day realize how limiting a romantic perspective can really be.

Ken, you are a gentleman and I wish I had some of your diplomacy but, alas, I do not. Keeping that in mind, I'm amused by your "flock" here. All I see so far is a guy with one longterm failed marriage who went abroad and found a young girl who he's been with for a few years. (lol, using that definition, I've got you *way* beat.) What you have so far regarding FSU woman is pretty easy to accomplish, guys do it all the time. It doesn't take rocket science to over and find a young girl, God knows how many I've turned down, nor does it take much to get to three years. Hell, I've got you beat there *wthout* marrying any of them.

No offense, but big deal. You haven't done anything much at all that others couldn't easily do and thats why I find it a bit amusing that so many here aspire to your "success". Whats really interesting is that the ones with the right perspective *know* better than to duplicate it. They know its much more difficult than what you've done.

Seriously, I mean no offense, its just the way I communicate. I clearly view many things differently than others. (For example I'm baffled by the propensity of people to post stories and photos of their "win" for all the world to see. I sincerely do not understand this, one's business should be one's own. Besides, it smacks of the trophy syndrome, infers a prior sense of desperation and lack of confidence and opens one up to electronic mischief. I did it once and learned never to do it again.)

lol, no slam.

... in response to Hmmm....., posted by LP on Feb 8, 2002

LP,
Very good post with a lot of "truths".  Maybe "recreational" was a poor choice of words on my part, but I sincerely didn't intend it as a slam to you.  How would you describe a man that says he is looking for a lifetime mate on one hand and yet is so proud of his past "successes" without marriages?  You wear your past relationships with younger women as a badge of honor to your ego.  What is the difference between your boasts of past "successes" with younger women and the guys you mention that post photos of their trophies"?  The photo?

You do make a valid point about men jumping into this FSU thing shortly after a divorce.  There was one guy on here a few months back that was going to Russia and his divorce wasn't even final.  Give me a break.  I advised the guy to wait until he got his head together.  FYI, there was 5 years between my divorce and my marriage to Lena.  During that time I too dated a lot of younger women.  Granted, not quite as young as Lena.  As for my first marriage being a "failure", it may be by definition because it ended in divorce, but that doesn't make the entire time a waste.  I raised two great kids during that marriage, and I wouldn't trade that for anything.  

You are again correct that anyone can bring back a Russian hottie and marry her.  No big deal to accomplishing that.  The real trick is to find someone that you love and loves you back.  Please note that there is no "Ken & Lena" website and that I don't normally send out photos of my "trophy".  (I have shared a photo or two with a few guys I was more comfortable with here)  I don't brag endlessly about how young or beautiful Lena is, I do tend to brag about the love we have found with each other though.  I won't apologize for that.  There is no way to verify what the future will hold for us, but I wouldn't bet against us.
KenC
ps (I didn't take your post as a slam in any way.  You brought up some very valid points)

... in response to Re: Hmmm....., posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

....Thanks for not taking it the wrong way. I wasn't saying what you did was wrong or that it wasn't right for you.

I was simply saying why I didn't do as you did and was amused at the corelation between your experience and the many others who seem to want to duplicate it. It only reinforces the public perception about MOB in some ways that men go to the FSU for young women they cannot get here. (Thats nonsense btw, most men can date much younger women here if they just have the confidence to try it.)

I don't wear my relationships with younger women as a badge of honor, my meaning was that these experiences have left me with a different outlook on the subject compared to your's. I'm not "proud" of these relationships one way or the other, thats just the way it worked out. It s not intended to be boasting. I'm only pointing out that relationships with younger women aren't all they're cracked up to be as I have lots of experience in that area. My relationship history has been somewhat unique compared to most and I'm offering that up for what it's worth.

Two of these women pursued me. I did not want to get involved with them, but even I sometimes don't learn from my past mistakes. It's not ego, it actually gets old dealing with it sometimes. The grass is always greener, and all that.

You are correct in that I meant your marriage was a failure in definition only. I didn't mean to imply it was a waste anymore than "mine" were. Had I choosen to countine the enviornment that I'm used to (living togethor unmarried), I would not consider it any different than a marriage. Remember, it's pretty much all I've known, the marriage thing is new to me and I was a bit uncomfortable with it.

Yes, I know you don't exhibit the trophy thing, I was just pointing out another example of how I view things differently than the majority. Again, I'm not saying to do so is wrong, I'm saying I personally don't understand the motivation. Btw, I've seen your photos even though you didn't send them to me, once out there you have no control and thats my point. lol, Lena is very pretty and you clearly look a charmer. What happened to her posting? lol, I think we all would like to hear "her side" of your adventure togethor.

As for betting against you? Sorry, I do. We will never agree that you are living on borrowed time. Maybe not divorce but there are other issues you simply can't escape or have control over. I hope the value you receive will be worth the tramua in the end. Again, no offense, but I would not want to be in your future shoes. lol, I'll admit its a pretty good deal at the present time though isn't it?.

Again, thanks for understanding my bluntness as only my attempts to effectively communicate my opinions and not as a slam. Tact is not one of my strong points but there is no malice behind them and very technical people are often cursed with this weakness. Hey, at least I'm aware of it.

... in response to Ken...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

You're right. About the time KenC hits the age of 70, there may be some problems. It's genetic. Look at James Doohan(Scotty of Star Trek), he fathered a kid at 90. But what the hell. Have fun and a good life while you can.

-blm

... in response to Yep... If you're betting on old age and ..., posted by BarryM on Feb 9, 2002

n/t

... in response to I'll take 23 years of happiness-anytime ..., posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

...when I say I consider it somewhat selfish.

What then? What about her? She'll be what, around 50?

Alone and in pain, having to start all over again when it won't be so easy. Or worse, forced to spend her golden years alone, when she will need you most.

Ask any couple the best part of their long relationship and they'll tell you it's growing old together. Sure, you're both growing older together now, but thats not what I mean.

And this is assuming you maintain your health up to the end. Ever had to care for a dying parent? A long painful process that culminates in even more trauma, it's not pleasant.

Imagine how that will be with a spouse. And all this doesn't even address the other practical issues
involved with a large age spread. There will likely be problems even before that, when you're pushing 65 or so and she's mid 40's. Think about the possible problems, it boggles the mind.

What about children? Is she gonna forgo them for you? If she's like most women (who want them) and does so, you will have robbed her of the experience you so treasured, the one you had before. And if she does have them they will be be college aged when you are what, 70?

Of course, she seems willing to accept this, or a least ignore it. After all, it's years away and who knows what'll happen. She's young and the young look at the future as light years away. But if you plan on sticking it out to the end you'd better be prepared, if thats even possible, for the outcome.

She was depending on your age and experience to have the wisdom to see what she could not. In your zest to have a beautiful young wife, you didn't feel you let her down? This doesn't strike you as selfish?

Borrowed time I tell ya, borrowed from her.

Or stolen, you decide.

Just food for thought.

... in response to Thats what I mean...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

LP,
You have to understand that we have discused these areas many many times.  Our plan is for Lena to have a life "after Ken".  I would be remiss in my responsiblities to the woman I love if I didn't have a plan for this.  I am sorry that the rest is just too personal to share with others.  Just know that you have not brought up any new subjects.

The "zest for a young wife" comment is a little out of line though.  As I have said many times here, I didn't go shopping for a wife in Russia (young or otherwise), things just happened.  FWIW, the only negative I found in Lena was that she was her age.  I didn't "steal" anything from her either, except maybe her heart.  Thanks for your point of view, it is a valid one.
KenC

... in response to you ask a lot of good questions, posted by KenC on Feb 9, 2002

....general comment Ken, using your situation only as an example. The post was directed at people who may not have your foresight.

Regardless of your planning, it will still be traumatic, but I suppose thats the tradeoff for the years spent together.

Thanx for the perspective.

... in response to Thats what I mean...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

I think KenC is doing just fine with Lena. She knows what she is in for. You have a very narrow, cynical, and sad view of the world, but the world doesn't revolve around you and your views. Reality goes on despite your skewed view of it. You can't perceive what is in the minds of others, especially KenC and Lena. Your life is yours, and I don't think the way you are living is right, but how do I know what you think or really how you live. What you post here is quite a cynical and harsh criticism of people who are happy. That is not right. They have already made their decision about life. You should be happy for them and you should wish for a long prosperous life for them.

-blm

... in response to You can't steal what is given to you..., posted by BarryM on Feb 9, 2002

.....Barry. My view is logical. The reality is that what I wrote about will most likely happen in one form or another as they have no control over it. For you to dispute that shows you are the one who is lacking in the perception of reality.

Like you, my perception *is* my reality, and my world *does* revolve around it. I (and you, in your case) wouldn't have it any other way. Besides, my "view" of the world is far more complex than I've ever presented here.

It is not my intention to critsize anyone, only to cause people to consider all the ramifications of their actions and to make them think beyond the present. My post was using Ken as an example but was directed at those who haven't made that same choice as yet.

I do wish Ken and Lena a long and happy life, they have made the commitment and have accepted whatever price they'll end up paying. Not my place to offer any opinions on what they should do. Of course they are "doing fine".....now. I wasn't speaking of now, was I?

As for narrowminded, you qualify for that in a big way. There are none so narrowminded as those blinded by faith. Religous zealots are *the* definition of narrowminded and  have resulted in 98% of the world's misery throughout history.

As for living my life "right", it's been darn good and only because I'm in charge of it using logic and intelligence to achieve my goals, not wandering lost and forlorn hoping something will happen to change it. How bout you? In charge are ye? By narrowing your choices down to practically nothing? By demanding your mate share *your* belief and value systems? If anyone here should be concerned about time, its you.

Your method is to use emotion and oogabooga. You have, and will continue to, be here a very long time. I'm done and couldn't be more tickled. If I was such a bad guy that wouldn't have happened, nor would I be in the other positions I'm in today. How does your faith explain that? lol, Good things happen to bad people?

Take a tip from me: Worry about changing your *own* life as much as you worry about others and you'll do much better with it.

... in response to Ya got it all wrong....., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

- just realistic - perhaps the truth sometimes seems cynical

... in response to Ya got it all wrong....., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

Hey, you have to live your own life. It's not up to me to tell you how to live. Logic and reason is quite a wonderful gift from God. If you think about it, it is all logic and reason, just that there are things beyond our understanding. It is a neverending chase. The more humanistic science tries to prove that nature is by random chance, the more evidence that nature is divinely inspired.

-blm

... in response to I have it right... believe it or not..., posted by BarryM on Feb 10, 2002

Good post!

... in response to Ken...., posted by LP on Feb 9, 2002

about younger women.  Almost a year ago I first wrote a letter to a girl in Ukraine who was 5 years younger than my self-imposed limit.  The only reason I wrote to her was I simply had an impression or intuition that this was a very high quality girl,  of course I could have been wrong on that.  She was good looking,  but not a knockout in the photo.  Our communication began and proceeded very slowly because we both have very busy lives.  After the first 4-5 letters I knew I was talking to a very deep thinking girl with a very high intellect and of excellent character.  We never got into all that lovey stuff---just a great communication of each others lives and thoughts.  I realized she was such a nice girl,  but too young.  I told her this and asked if we could continue to know each other,  but as friends.  She agreed to be friends and she was sorry that I considered her to be too young and too inexperienced for a relationship.  Over time I realized we had just an incredible communication on everything...just incredible and somewhat unexpected on my part.  And of course we are very warm in this friendship.  It is to me quite unexpected.  I don't know just where this will go to in the future...but,  now I would not be very surprised to find that we are together.  I nearly scrathed her off,  because of her age.  And then I would have missed this great friendship.

... in response to Hhhmm! a point in point, posted by tim360z on Feb 9, 2002

Was that a typo? Or do you think a woman five years younger than you is too young?

I gotta tell you... I think five years is nothing.

My dad was 6 years older than my mother. I was 5 years older than my first wife. I was 8 years older than my last girlfriend, 7 than the one before that, and 11 the one before that  -- these were ALL AWs...

I have NEVER felt old in any of these relationships. (The one who was 11 years younger took regular naps, and was always wanting to slow down. Maybe she needed more iron in her diet?)

Anyway... Five years? Are you kidding me? If that is the only thing holding you back from committing to a wonderful woman with character and integrity...

Sheesh man... what do you want: A woman who shares your same birthday???

... in response to Because of FIVE years?, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 10, 2002

Yeah Mark,

  OIC.  With any girl it is so easy to paint these borders...sorta like a self-imposed limitation based on various ideas stormin' around in the brain.  One can always be unexpectedly and pleasantly surprised by reality.  Thats all I was trying to post here.  When you begin to know a very remarkable girl---ya gotta throw all those convenient misconceptions out the window.  Life is life.

... in response to Because of FIVE years?, posted by MarkInTx on Feb 10, 2002

ie, if his lower limit was 30, then that put her at 25... etc.

... in response to Mark that was 5 years younger than his l..., posted by BrianN on Feb 10, 2002

Missed that somehow

... in response to Hmmm....., posted by LP on Feb 8, 2002

This post of yours definitely requires some long thought.  You're obvilously the harder of the "hard arses" around here it seems lp, and I understand you very well.  More concrete "logically" based decision process, as a pilot would be... (airspeed low, altitude low... Extend FLAPS, no grey area whatsoever - as self preservation to prevent total destruction would be the order of the day).

And you go so far as to throw in the word romance.  In my opinon, "romance" is the by-product of an emotional behavior, not the root.  A guy doesn't start his day by being romantic, he just behaves that way with his lady, wife, etc.  The lady then considers this as a definition, as "romantic".

Like you said, "romance doesn't power a relationship on the long haul", it's actually the persons behavior to the other that does.

Maybe Ken has thrown out his swipes at you based on a misunderstanding of the man that you are, and your lack of diplomacy (extend flaps again, even though it's not PC), but that doesn't mean he's not right, for his particular situation.

Each man is different, but most pilots, will still fly the same plane, the same way, with the same set of procedures.

(oh, sorry!  Nothing against pilots!  just an ex tactical a/c... the community sometimes calls the a/c's pilot wanna-be's.  Only one pilot was ever needed in my family... my dad).

Helluva post though.  Lots of thoughts to entertain.

... in response to WOW,  what a post..., posted by BrianN on Feb 8, 2002

""Maybe Ken has thrown out his swipes at you based on a misunderstanding of the man that you are, and your lack of diplomacy""

Yes indeed Brian. I'm mostly misunderstood here. :-) But Ken is a sharp guy and has read enough of my stuff to know its just my poor social skills.  Those who *really* know me have no complaints. I beleive Ken when he says he didn't mean to slam me, same as I didn't mean to slam him. It's just his opinion, there was no "malice aforethought"

Ken is a nice guy, an all around gentleman. I hope one day I can be so also but it ain't lookin good. :-) I won't say he is thick skinned because that is different than being a nice guy. Being a nice guy is better.
lol, I'm thick skinned, but not such a nice guy at times.

Sure, I can be a jerk. Beleive it or not, I have to actually work at it though. The difference between me and some others is I can turn it off. :-)

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

if things don't work out with a western woman...its like things didn't work out...while with an FSU woman...shes a scammer 'cuz I went there and things didn't click.  Strange mindset.

... in response to I find this to be quite true...for some ..., posted by tim360z on Feb 8, 2002

I appreciate what Ken is saying but I do not think that the correlation of AW and FSU dating  can be compared to easily.

The word scamming is not one that I have really heard  by males in dating AW. This word only became a household term for me when I entered the FSU women scene.

I feel in part the reason we can not so easily compare the AW and the FSUW is the great differences in economics and culture and great distance involved between parties.

The average Joe does not have as  dramatic economic status difference from the AW that he dates as compared to the FSU woman (of course there will always be exceptions) and therefore there is not a much to scam for by the AW as compared to the FSU lady. Also because of the great physical distance lies are easier to hide and better scams easier to create. In other words there is not as much perceived reward by the AW.

Come on now, how many here have dated an AW who makes up things like illnesses, accidents, or other major reasons simply to get money. I have never met anyone where this happened. I am sure it does but, it is the exception versus a common occurrence. Very few AW are really trying to scam a guy in this nature. They are just like their male counterparts relative to recreational dating - wanting to have fun - willing to have the guy spend money - but the guy gets sex and everyone is happy. If the woman does not put out and only lets him spend money he moves on. It is not about scamming. It is how the game is played.

However, if an AW dated me, and while I was not attending my wallet stole my credit cards etc. with all planned and her not being interested at all - lying to me about caring for me then well I would say that I was scammed. Again, I do not hear of these things (yes I am sure they happen - but again they are the exception of the AM experience and not common)

I have never had anything like this happen to me here in the USA after dating many many women but in the FSU I experienced an event of such magnitude with the third lady that I corresponded with - fabricating stories for the sole purpose of trying to get me to send funds to save her while she told me how much she cared for me when such was not the case at all. She got me for a sum of money before I got wise. This was just not behavior that I was used to here in the USA.

Where I agree with Ken is that because of the extremes of scams that these ladies have been known for some guys get paranoid enough that they over react and call certain behavior a scam when the magnitude of what happened does not justify the label scam.

For any FSU ladies who read this, I acknowledge that there are foreign men who are trying to scam them for sex and attention when they do not have honorable intentions. We dishonorables on both sides of the fence. Both sides have to deal with it.

... in response to Can not easily compare apples to oranges..., posted by thesearch on Feb 8, 2002

Greg,

Just one comment - american guys have created the "rules" and image themselves ASSUMING that they HAVE to pay for translations, rents, fancy vacations, etc.  You don't HAVE to fly her to Paris, you don't HAVE to spend big $$ on hotels and fancy dinners. It would be much wiser and appreciated more to spend it on your wife's adjustment in USA, your future house, etc than on some girl you haven't even met. Unfortunately, when somebody falls into this trap, they have only themselves to blame.

Can't comment on AW and RW dating situation. But me thinks AW are much more shreud in spinning you guys in separation, divorce and getting hands on current assets and even potential earnings :) It still amazes me. Yes, you will have sex every day compared to Russian woman living overseas, but I don't think that comes out of idea "just" having fun :)
I am certain believer that everything comes with the price, it's just different payment terms :)

Otherwise, why would you even consider Russian woman?

Russian Wife

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

RW,

I am constantly amazed at your fluency in our language.

Your posts have better grammer, punctuation, and spelling than many "natives." (And dropping something like: "Methinks" shows a broad grasp of nuance.)

How long have you been speaking/writing English?

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

RW,

I completely agree with the idea that men create this situation for themselves. Part of that is the way we operate here, and we go over there with the expectations and concepts that we learned while dating an AW. I can easily drop $100 on a dinner here in the states. That's $3000 rubles in Russia, and it makes the date's eyeballs pop since she would NEVER spend that kind of money on a dinner. Women in Dallas barely even notice that kind of a first date.

But, I will side with Greg on the definition of a scammer.

My first wife got the house and all of our possessions in our divorce. But that was after 8 years of marriage, and she never ONCE thought that we were getting a divorce when we got married.

We were both sincere in our goals and both sincere in our attempts to make it work.

If an RW married a man with the same intentions and then it didn't work out, I would not call her a scammer. Even if she "upgraded" her lifestyle in the process.

A scammer is someone who lies, cheats and steals with no INTENTION of ever trying to have a happy married life.

There may be AWs who do this (Anna Nicole Smith comes to mind...) but as Greg pointed out, these are rare and few.

There is a HUGE difference between a scammer and a woman who was unfortunate enough to be in a relationship that just didn't work out.

Are there AW scammers? Sure. Are some RWs labelled scammers inapropriately? Absolutely.

But the basic premise that Greg laid out in his post is 100% correct, in my opinion...

... in response to it is the same game, posted by RWife on Feb 8, 2002

and many Aw's have such highly developed skills with language and expressions that most guys never even know when their pocket is being picked.  Just sit in on a girls-only session and you will be amazed at how the AW's really talk about you.  Their talents are so refined that you scarcely even know the true motivation.  You missed the moves.  The Rw's skill is not so well socially and culturally refined as Aw's who have lived in our society all their lives.  They do lack the skills at motivating in our culture.  A-girls have practiced these skills since they were little girls,  some are so adept that their skills are seen as seamless by us men...not even recoginized.  Barely perceived ever.

... in response to Yes,  I must agree on that, posted by tim360z on Feb 8, 2002

Don't ever underestimate them. That would be a stupid error on your part. Remember that RW/UW have more feminine behavior than AW these days. Because of feminism, TV, and the breakdown of the family, AW don't care as much. I would bet on the RW/UW to have more feminine guiles than the AW.

-blm

... in response to RW/UW have their own ways of social mani..., posted by BarryM on Feb 8, 2002

I know Rw/Uw,  as well as all women can spin a marvelous charm that can be irresistable.  I mean really Barry,  what are all these guys pokin' around this board for.  The Pl Board ain't exactly the fishing channel where we are discussing hooks and flys and rods and bait and chum and the 1 that got away and...---hey,  wait a minute---this is alot like the fishing channel.  Maybe we should have a Derby,  whattya think???

... in response to No underestimation intended,, posted by tim360z on Feb 8, 2002

....well,  of course we are gonna need rules.  And a criteria.  And officials and judges.  I think we'll make Jack and LP the judges of weights and measures.  The judges will be all the happily married guys and their wives.  Hhhhmmm!  this has possibilities?  Me and Stan get the concession license.  Hhhmmm!  food for thought....then again while a Derby is kinda cute---a pageant would be just unbeleivable...we'll peddle it to the networks...Fox will outbid all comers.

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

I see no difference between dating here and Russia other than the time and distance phenomena.  People meet, either through letter, email, personal introduction, social gathering or randomly.  They talk, learn about each other and decide if they like each others company.  This may occur over days, months, weeks, years etc. depending upon the couple.  They may meet face to face many times or infrequently over this period of time.  It depends upon the individuals.  Eventually or quickly they may decide to get married - now here is where it gets dicey - who lives where, how to get to the USA generally etc.  Dating is dating anywhere.  You go out and when you determine the person is not right, you move on.  Better to find out along the way than to be divorced.

... in response to Re: Re: Once upon a time (some sobering ..., posted by hockeybrain on Feb 8, 2002

If the only thing the girl intended to do was steal money from you in the process of dating then it is a scam - period ie. premeditated dating robbery.

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

Hello Ken,  we all have dated girls when we were young, kissing, petting and wanted to get in their pant.
You say you have dated AW, I dated FCW  (french canadian woman).  Where we scamming the girls, when we
told them that we loved them more than anything,  because we had a hard_n that hurt so much that we
sincerely believe, we would not have been able to walk home.
The girls all have lived this with us.  Do you think that they have forgotten all of this, no sir.
It is just that now they know what we are made of.  They do know that we are a lot of kid inside most of us,
still.  And they hope that some of us have grown a little.
Others have been scr&w in so many ways,  physicaly, emotionaly, materialy...etc.  that they are waiting for
someone to pay the bill for the others, when that someone will cross the lines.
So what is scamming,  everyone of us here and everywhere do takes his best shots, men and women.
Some for different reasons are not lucky and will never be.
Some people could not carry a tune, if they had it in a bucket.  But they do have hope, like I have.
You are one of the lucky guy, I lift my hat to you.

... in response to Re: Re: Once upon a time (some sobering ..., posted by micha1 on Feb 8, 2002

Micha1,
You know that my life has not all been a bed of roses either. I just choose to be an optimist. I believe that everyone will get exactly what they deserve-----eventually. Everyone here knows about how wonderful my life is with Lena, but I also don't dwell on the years of misery and the heartbreak I suffered with the break-up of a 20+ year marriage to an AW. That was then, this is now. I have a great life and a great wife! Best of luck to everyone.
KenC

... in response to Re: Once upon a time (some sobering thou..., posted by KenC on Feb 8, 2002

And... age police aside...

A sixty something man after a 26 year old hottie?

And she was not just in love with him? She was after more? Gee, imagine that!

Tania may be on to something...