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Title: FINAL SAY Post by: EARL on January 12, 2002, 05:00:00 AM MARK H. I read your rebutal and quite frankly it doesn't make sense. First of all if indeed you met a wonderful girl, notwithstanding what all happened to you, you should be floating on air not coming back pointing fingers. (Red Flag #1) I hope you did meet this wonderful girl and if you really did..... BE HAPPY!!!!!! and forget about the rest buddy.
Your comment that "its difficult to communicate through an interpreter" is ridiculous and deserves no further comment. (RED FLAG #2) As far as Jack goes, some of what he says seems about right, some of what he says I take exception to, so I am no stooge with this Jack fella. But if I stood someone up, I dont think I would be standing on any kind of moral ground. (red flag #3) Get a keg of DAB beer. Tap that sucker and get drunk and have a good laugh and better luck next time!! :-) Title: Re: FINAL SAY Post by: John F on January 12, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to FINAL SAY, posted by EARL on Jan 12, 2002
This type of discussion should not be taking place on this board. It is a business dispute between a business owner and a client. Years ago I belonged to a local boating club. The membership contained adequate representation from the boat dealership and boat repair businesses. Guess why? That's why Jack is here. Jack is a business. Understand that if he does not treat his Ukraine connections properly then he will have no business. Jack should also understand that due to the type of business he's engaged in that his clientel require a certain amount of flexibility. John Title: Re: Re: FINAL SAY. Business. Post by: NW Jim on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: FINAL SAY, posted by John F on Jan 12, 2002
John, I think this was an interesting story and exchange. It illustrates how agencies and their clients interact, the importance of communications and how it finally boils down to caveat emptor. Jack has handled this exchange much more diplomatically than some of his spats in the past. He's learning that business owners have to be good diplomats. Contrast that with the recently banned "mdante" who's wife has a travel agency focusing on Eastern Europe, but he was busy venting and flaming at potential customers. Who wants to do business with somebody like that? Jack and Mark have both been valuable contributors in the past, and hopefully they will continue to do so. Title: mdante was banned? huh... I missed that Post by: MarkInTx on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: FINAL SAY. Business., posted by NW Jim on Jan 13, 2002
I guess I'm not surprised... but I missed that one... Was wondering why he wasn't adding his two cents on this whole thing. Guess that explains it... Title: Amen....and Post by: Mark H on January 12, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: FINAL SAY, posted by John F on Jan 12, 2002
your post rings true. Guys take trips all the time and guys speak of their experiences all the time. It's no surprise that when someone doesn't "click" with Jack they're viewed as whining or crying, etc.... I came back and simply posted a portion of my trip. Regardless of whether I met a nice girl or not, his operation was too small for me. I would have liked to have met more serious girls. That is all. As for his and my personal beef...no beef on my end. Classic Jack all the way bashing anyone who doesn't bow to his throne. As in my first post I said I had no beef with his company or employees and actually recommended them. He starting firing across my bow and I think I've done fairly well in not lowering myself to his level. As for his little cronies trying to score brownie points, they can kiss my arse as well. This DE guy, whoever he is, has his head so far up Jacks rear end he can't see the light of day. It's funny to be on this side of Jack's BS. Also, as for being scared to go to Dnep? Get real. Once again, I stood no one up. As far as I was concerned there was nothing to stand up. After the fact jack says I stood up half of ukraine. Hmmm. Still Smiling, Title: Re: This DE guy...... Post by: DE on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Amen....and, posted by Mark H on Jan 12, 2002
hey pal, dude or what ever you want to call me doesn't have his head up Jack's ass. In fact, I've used several agencies besides Jack's in the past. They all have their good and bad. But your whinning and crying speaks for its self. Maybe if for a moment you took your head out of your ass, you might realize that you indeed screwed up your own trip accomodations and relationship with Jack. It's just a matter of taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions rather then blaming others for it or crying over it. I've been on Jack's bad side too, but you won't find any posts by me crying about that or how an agency was to blame for my decisions or choices, and believe me, not all of my choices were good ones. (.) Title: Re: Re: This DE guy...... Post by: Mark H on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: This DE guy......, posted by DE on Jan 13, 2002
Man, You are just one loud mouth guy, seems to always be running also. I love your posts, they are so insightful and well scripted. Taking responsibility for my actions? Of course I do. Relationship with Jack? What relationship? I've never met him, emailed him time to time, spoke on the phone. No relationship, it was business. I set up my trip and did what I want. No crying, you are the only one crying. I'm sure you do alot of it behind your little keyboard. I simply posted my thoughts and experiences with an agency and now you say that is crying. I had a ball. I'm not sure where anyone has ever said my trip was a "disaster". A "failure". I just said Jack's agency was too small to accomodate my tastes. That's all. Where do you get crying from that tough guy? I'm sorry if you have a little Buddha statue of jack on your mantle that you rub and pray to, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. You directed your slobber at me, not vice versa. I never bad mouthed Jack or his agency until he started firing lies and cheap shots across my bow. Then you show up running your mouth. I know your type, the little weenie who stands on the side lines of a fight saying "get him". Your a puss. Mark H. Title: Mark, please explain Post by: Jack on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Re: Re: This DE guy......, posted by Mark H on Jan 13, 2002
Mark, I made my two post's to you, one to tell the other side of the story, in which you didn't do, with your first post. And my second post that allowed me to counter each of your claims. After those two I feel I didn't need to post anymore to each of your many bashing post's and statements. But now I have no choice to post again. In your post above you mention you didn't start bad mouthing me until I started firing lies and cheap shots about you. Mark, you started bad mouthing me and my company with your very first post! Now Mark, still trying to conduct this forum with you in a civilized post, you say I started firing lies towards you in these most recent exchanges. Lies certaintly would mean more than one. Mark, will you please tell me what these lies where? In my two replies to you over your most recent successful trip, what are the lies? And secondly you have stated that Jack's "vending machine", Jack's "selections" were empty. Mark, again, how can you say this? Jack's fully stocked "vending machine" and many "selections" were in Dnepropetrovsk! Where did you tell me you were going to go to? Where did you tell me that you wanted to meet MANY ladies from? It was Dnepropetrovsk! Was I suppose to have a stocked "vending machine" for you in Kiev? Was I suppose to have many "selections" for you in Kiev? Well you and I know the answer to that is no, look at all the e-mails you have saved and read them. I would have thought that the selection of seven ladies in a city where you are spending two days would have been enough of a selection. Your real selections were in the city that you had told me to concentrate our efforts, Dnepropetrovsk. Again, if you forgot this go back and read all the many e-mails you have saved regarding this trip. So Mark I would like to hear from you about all the lies I told you, I would settle for just one lie I told you in any of the, now three, post's I have made in response to your one-sided story. And secondly I take great exception to your statements that the "vending machine" was empty and there were no selections for you as you never even went to Dnepropetrovsk to look at the "fully stocked vending machine". Title: Jack Jack Jack... Post by: x on January 14, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Mark, please explain, posted by Jack on Jan 13, 2002
Your main problem is you lie and abuse people... this pisses most people off and well flames... stop the abuse and stop the lies and well we might begin to appreciate you and support your business... untill then sink. Title: MAx, MAx, MAx Post by: Jack on January 15, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Jack Jack Jack..., posted by x on Jan 14, 2002
Your main problem is you lie and abuse people...this pisses most people off and well, starts flames...stop the abuse and stop the lies and well we might begin to think fondly of you when we talk about you in years to come...until then pay your debts you cheap bastard instead of leaving good people who make little money by your standards to pay your debt. Title: Final post to you........ Post by: Mark H on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Mark, please explain, posted by Jack on Jan 13, 2002
Jack, You asked the questions and I'll provide the answers. I have reread the emails and they are plain as day. Let's see if you remember some of them. Lie: The BS about Milena. In your post you state that "many men have met her and think she is legit and wonderful". I have the email where you state "two other guys are writing to her but none have met her, you'll be the first. You have the edge in going over and meeting her while the others just sit on the fence". Remember that one? So, what is it...had others met her or not? Lie: We had you all set up in Dnepropetrovsk with many girls who wanted to meet you. You abandoned these girls and left Galina high and dry. Sorry Jack but I have 4 separate emails that anyone can view if they wish where I specifically asked you about girls in Dnepropetrovsk. I asked about agencies, Galina's website, etc... You said it was coming in mid december. Never happened. As far as I knew when I got on the plane from barcelona...I wasn't sure what was going to happen. Lie: "you bashed me and my company in your first email". That's a lie. I prefaced the entire email with the fact that firstdream.com did everything they promised. I also recommended anyone going to see one or two girls to use your company. What I didn't recommend was using your company to visit agencies because I felt the contacts you had for this type of visit was weak. That's it. How is that an attack? That was honesty and you took it as an attack. That's when you came back with your response that I had left half the population of Dnepropetrovsk high and dry. That's what upset me. I didn't have a freaking clue about Dnepropetrovsk and if there was a way to know...I'd bet it's all BS. It's easy Jack to come here and NOW, in hindsight, state what a wonderful setup you had for me in Dnep. Where was on December 23rd? Dec 24th? Dec 25th? Where was it? It wasn't there, if it was you sure didn't inform me about it. Once in Kiev, I made a decision based on the information I had to not go to Dnep...to stay in Kiev. I was VERy unsure of what was waiting for me and I didn't wish to waste anymore of my time. I ALWAYS have fun in Kiev but am not sure my future partner will come from this city. Who knows. BUT I ALWAYS have fun in Kiev. So I decided to stay. It's that simple. Then you send a scorching email that upset everyone around, my interpreter, etc... Poor kid couldn't sleep worried about it. I thought that was crappy of you also. If you have a beef with me, contain it with me, don't go threatening your staff over there and upsetting these people. Tell the board about your threats Jack, go ahead? I have the email if anyone wants to read it. I think your behavior was very unprofessional. You didn't ask me why I stayed in Kiev, you didn't do anything but send a threatening and scorching email. I made sure I didn't attack you or your company. I stated my opinion which is what this board is based on. You got pissed and started trying to make me look like a monster leaving Galina on a frozen train platform, standing up single mothers for dates, and whatever tripe you spewed. None of it true and YOU KNOW IT. Recommendation: In the future, inform your clients AHEAD of time if you have something set up, especially if they have asked REPEATEDLY. Don't worry Jack, you'll come out of this smelling like a rose due to the fact that many guys are insecure about traveling abroad and need your handholding, and I personally don't care what anyone thinks of me. I NEVER needed you, our so called friendship was based on something other than apartments and traveling...so I thought. As I've said before, this ain't my livelihood. but I'll be darned if I will sit around and watch you spin BS into making me sound like a heavy for not going on a trip I didn't want to take. Think about it, what fool would not go on a trip as you describe? Problem is, you describe it AFTER the fact. Readers will think what they want. YOU AND I KNOW the truth. This all started in October with the TOUR. You did the same thing to me, perhaps not to everyone else and maybe it is true that you have a different operating style with me...I don't know. But, the same thing happened with the tour. I wrote email after email asking about flats, costs, etc.... You never had anything concrete and could tell me nothing. You told me how you would make it so cheap on me and cut me so much slack because "gosh darnit, you're a nice guy and people like you". Then I get on the plane from Kiev to Pittsburgh and one of your tour boys was sitting across the isle from me. He didn't have nice things to say about Firstdream and your organizational skills either. But I kept it to myself and didn't say a word on the board. I could have. I also find out his price was the same low wonderful "you're my friend" price that you gave me. What a scam. But before the trip, no information. That's why I decided not to go, no information. You did it again with the Dnep trip. At least one guy stayed in Odessa and didn't go to Kiev because he met a girl, did you scorch him? Did you tell everyone that he stood up half of kiev? Where's the consistency. I simply didn't go to Dnep, no big deal but you have made a big deal out of it. You created this mess with your stupid email while I was in Ukraine. You want to have a problem with me, fine. We have a problem but don't add lies and BS to it trying to gather the cronies on your side. It's not necessary. I don't care what they think, never have. Anyone who has seen my posts over the last 3 years knows I don't sweat insults and flames. Best of luck to you, you're going to need it. Mark H. Title: Promise, .... the final post from me regarding this.... Post by: Jack on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM ... in response to Final post to you........, posted by Mark H on Jan 13, 2002
My final post on the matter I promise you Patrick, I just think it is only fair I be able to address Marks typical BS response. Mark, I have received several e-mails from guys on the P-L who have asked me to just ignore you. Most people know you for what you are, just a big blow hard who has never been wrong in his life and will always do things his way, right or wrong. I replied back to many of these guys, thanking for there support and telling them I had no intentions of dragging this little conflict out. However when you start to say that what I have written in my three replies to you is a lie, or lies, then I respectfully asked you to tell me what I have written to you in any of these responses was a lie. In your response below under the subject title Final post to you you rant and rave, as usual and I dont see where you have proved I have told you any lies! Please Mark, you have my permission, not that you need it, but please feel free to share and publish all the e-mails between us over the last two months regarding your trip. I have nothing to hide and in fact took great pride in the actions and things we did on your be-half to insure you a good trip. Please share all these e-mails, I have no problem with it and although it wouldnt be necessary to do from the feedback I am getting, I think it would further prove that you just plain fukced up, although God forbid from your mentality, not YOU! Mark Jack, Now Mark, lets cut thru the bull sh!t, did you get such an e-mail from me, yes or no? I asked about agencies, Galina's website, etc... You said it was coming in mid december. Never happened. Mark, in all those e-mails you have again please feel free to post the information that I told you about the agencies in Dnepropetrovsk. In case you accidentally omitted this message let me remind you of what was said. I told you there were about four agencies in Dnepropetrovsk and two of these agencies we would not use or recommend because we felt they were scam agencies. There were two agencies that we will escort clients two in Dnepropetrovsk but as Galina is a formidable competitor in Dnepropetrovsk due to the many clients we take care of here, these agencies would not want Galina going into there office. Again Mark, please feel free to release this e-mail. Regarding the website Galina is building you are absolutely correct in that I told you that at the earliest we thought the website she was building would be up by mid-December. I think I also wrote you in this same message that the website may not be completed before your trip, but I am not sure of that, but I think I did. Will you double check your e-mails regarding the discussion about our Dnepropetrovsk website? Because of the un-certainty about the website being built that you could see all our ladies from Dnepropetrovsk, Galina proceeded to contact the ladies individually and tell them about you, and I will ask you to refer back to the earlier e-mail I sent you in which I told you Galina was amazed about how many ladies were interested in, and excited to meet you. And I encourage you to post that e-mail, but if you do, then maybe you dont look so good now, do you Mark? Hummm, Mark, well myself, and a few others, feel these comments were certainly aimed at bashing FirstDream. These comments were from your first report, and you dont think they are tilted a little towards the bashing side? The apartment was nice but quite far from Kreshatik (spelling?) No Mark, certainly no bashing of FirstDream here, none whats so ever. And of course with your next 15 replies you continued to bash even more and worse! That's when you came back with your response that I had left half the population of Dnepropetrovsk high and dry. That's what upset me. I never said you left half the population of Dnepropetrovsk high and dry, those were your words. I did say that I felt very embarrassed for Galina having to call the many ladies who were hoping to meet you and telling them you would not be coming. Dont try to put words in my mouth and dont try to mis-lead when you fukced up and it is quite apparent for ALL to see. Mark, please my boy, read the e-mail in which I told you Galina could not believe the response rate she was getting from ladies who wanted to meet you. You keep eluding this e-mail, I think you want to forget about this e-mail, dont you? How could you not have a freaking clue about Dnepropetrovsk when you receive an e-mail telling you that the response rate for ladies wanting to meet you is great! Once in Kiev, I made a decision based on the information I had to not go to Dnep...to stay in Kiev. Ok, lets get this straight. We greet you at 12:30am on the morning of the 27th, we take you right to your flat and you get to bed as you have a busy schedule that we have mapped out for you during your one day in Kiev as you must make the 10:30 train the night of the 27th to Dnepropetrovsk. You wake up you have a few dates, you meet ladies from the agencies. You like some of these ladies a lot, as your e-mail to me said, Jack, am having a wonderful time, Thanks for everything, met three wonderful ladies, will not be going to Dnepropetrovsk. Will have Ilya call Galina and tell her I am not coming. Hummmph Mark, now lets see here. You had received my e-mail telling you about how many ladies were excited to meet you in Dneprop. And now you get to Kiev and you meet three wonderful ladies, as you say to me in your e-mail and you are staying in Kiev. I wonder if one of these ladies convinced you that you would have more fun with her if you stayed? So I decided to stay. It's that simple. Then you send a scorching email that upset everyone around, my interpreter, etc... Poor kid couldn't sleep worried about it. I thought that was crappy of you also. If you have a beef with me, contain it with me, don't go threatening your staff over there and upsetting these people. Tell the board about your threats Jack, go ahead? I have the email if anyone wants to read it. I think your behavior was very unprofessional. Mark, let me make this perfectly clear, you can publish any and all e-mails between us regarding this matter. I am not ashamed of anything I wrote you. You keep saying you have the e-mail, you have the e-mail. I hope you do, you say this as though you are threatening me and please Mark, I have nothing to be ashamed of. In fact if you have all the e-mails you say you do many people would wonder why you didnt go to Dneprop? Regarding the scorching e-mail that upset everyone, well, everyone is your term. Lets discuss this e-mail. You send me an e-mail the night you are to leave for Dneprop. And you say, Hello Jack, am having a wonderful time, things are going great. Met three wonderful women. I will not being going to Dnepropetrovsk, will have Ilya call Galina and tell her I am not coming. To which I replied to you, (not quoting but paraphrasing) Mark, I am glad you are having a good time in Kiev however I am upset that all the work and effort we went to for you in Dnepropetrovsk was in vain. I feel very bad for Galina in that she will now need to notify the ladies hoping to meet you that you are not coming. Mark, for the remainder of your stay in Kiev I assure you that Ilya and Rostick will give you 100% of there effort and will be very professional. After we see you off at the airport FirstDream will no longer offer you any of its services, support or personal. If any FirstDream personal wants to work with you in the future they will do so not as an employee of FirstDream. I hate that it must come to this Mark but in my opinion if you can do this once you could do it again and I do not want to subject my employees or these fine women to such a situation again. Now Mark, that was pretty much the contents of the scolding e-mail you are referring to. If you have it, sure, feel free to print it! Mark Jack Mark I made sure I didn't attack you or your company. I stated my opinion which is what this board is based on. You got pissed and started trying to make me look like a monster leaving Galina on a frozen train platform, standing up single mothers for dates, and whatever tripe you spewed. None of it true and YOU KNOW IT. Jack Well Mark, I think I pretty much showed how you bad mouth FirstDream in your first post, and of course your later posts only got worse, so much for you not attacking, huh! I never said anything about Galina being left on a frozen platform, more of your spin of words Mark. I was able to call Galena after getting the message you were not showing up, I was able to reach her at her flat, she did not have to go to the train station. I had the delightful chore of having to tell her you were not coming, although she also heard from Ilya, but she had the difficult job of having to tell the ladies and although most the ladies we found for you did not have children, I understand a few had a child, so you are right in that a few single mothers were essentially stood up by you.
Thanks Mark, I am sure it wont hurt to have a little luck on my side. Title: Whatever n/t Post by: DE on January 13, 2002, 05:00:00 AM |