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I'm interested in people's opinions on alternative ways of contacting the ladies. I'm not fond of agencies but I see them as a neccessary evil. How else are we to find so many women so quickly?

HEre's my list of pros and cons of an agency.
Pro
Large selection.
Translators available.
Easy access.
Local contacts for travel arrangements.
Advice on selecting a suitable lady.

Con
Expensive services.
Possiblity of them hijacking your communications.
Possibility that ladies aren't real.
Possibility that the info is out of date.
Very difficult to have a meaningful relationship when going through a third party.
They are a business. Money comes first over the clients.

Now with a good agency most of the cons are not a problem. A good agency can be your best friend. A bad one your worst enemy.

Now the thing is how can a do it yourself person cut the agency out of the picture? If it's your first trip over I think you should have an agency to help. For those who have never been there it isn't like driving to the next city over from home. You will need an incredible amount of support. Where do you sleep? Where do you eat? How do you hire a taxi if you don't speak the language? It may cost more but the agency will find these things for you. I took two trips without any agencies. But I was able to do that because I had a great family who did all the local support work for me. I was never more than a few blocks away from home without adult supervision. And I definitely wasn't trying to travel around a strange city all alone.

Meeting the ladies. Honestly how many guys would go if they didn't have at least one very interesting girl to meet? The wander around until you meet somebody on the street theory isn't good. How well does it work in North America? Don't expect it to go better in Russia. Success using that is very dependant on luck and personal charm.

I've tried to get around agencies for initial contacts. But many of the so called "free sites" are really just free advertising for the agencies. I speak some Russian but I'm not comfortable trying to use the entirely free Russian websites. My grasp of the language isn't good enough to write decent letters entirely in Russian. And the ladies quite often over inflate their own level of skill in English. I found that basic English meant equivalent to my knowledge of French. I can count to twenty, say a half a dozen phrases and understand many words. A two year old native speaker could have better conversations.

If anybody can tell me a method to provide all the support that an agency does without the costs I'd like to hear it. The only way I know is to have a support network of friends in the city like I had in Volgograd. But it took me months and a trip with an agency to develop a very small network. And my network has crumbled because my main contact moved and didn't give me his new adress.

So my advice for people planning first trips is stick with an agency or a recognised tour group for arrangements. It may be expensive but it is less risky than being on your own in a strange country.

... in response to The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

I placed personal ads on a on couple of Russian sites.  I made English a requirement (did not answer letters that were not written in English).  I did get a few letters that were written through agencies but they were easy to spot. I made all of my travel arrangements on my own with some assistance from the girls I was writing to.

Now I don't have anything against agencies, I just thought that I could save money by doing it on my own.  I am not so sure that I actually saved all that much money.  Also, there was almost certainly a bit of luck involved as far as the girl I went to meet.  Things could have just as easily not worked out between the 2 of us and I would have been stuck.  An agency would certainly be able to assist with back up plans.

Also by bypassing agencies I disqualified a lot of girls who do not have access to a computer or the internet.  Again, this seems to have worked well for me but just as easily could have not worked out.

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing, posted by philb on Jan 14, 2002

A good travel agency, or a good introduction agency is going to save you some of the time and headaches you can get when planning things on your own. Having assistance overseas is a good insurance policy for the unexpected problems you can run into. A couple of things come to mind such as illness or running into trouble with the authorities. Having someone to do some legwork and get you out of a jam is invaluable. It's worth the extra money on that aspect alone.

-blm

... in response to Re: Re: saving time, solving problems, posted by BarryM on Jan 14, 2002

Good point concerning the time issue.  When time is short I think that saving money becomes secondary to accomplishing the goals of your trip.  If saving money is the primary goal then it would be best to postpone the trip until money is of a lesser appointment.

I use a travel agency for intra-airport transfers in Moscow even though I could take public transport and save a bundle.  Again, it comes down to time vs. money.

... in response to The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

Maybe I was just lucky but I went independent my first trip and spent less money then had I decided to take a vacation in florida for 3 weeks.( which was how long I was in Russia )

I used a translator, and chose a big city ( Moscow )for the begining of my trip, but ended up staying there and not traveling to meet the women I met for free over the internet. Sure it was possible some of those girls could have been scammers ?? I never went to find out. If I had to do it over I would make them come to Moscow to meet me, and thus weed out the scammers.

I have heard of guys going into Russian chat rooms or other places and use this translation link ( copy,and paste )http//:translation2.paralink.com and make contacts, and basically doing some networking, make friends,get info,meet girls, and so on as a way to cut out the middle man. It is possible to take this link and look into Russian personal adds on Russian web sights and take a few shots in the dark.

If you take the time to make plans and do research, and be a little creative it is not such a big thing to fear. All you need is a little effort and time, and always have a back up plan. I know by doing this you will most likely spend much less, and I personally would rather meet a small time girl then one using an agency. My wife says they make jokes about those girls in Russia. Sure some are honest and really good girls, but to Russians they are usually girls with some problems ?? ( I really don't mean this as an insult )

Mike

... in response to agree to disagree, posted by Mike on Jan 14, 2002

I'm not disagreeing with you. What you say is possible. The only thing is most people I know wouldn't take the time to research things the way you did. Actually I wanted to hear opinions like yours on how to get around the agencies. You sound like you were well prepared.

Please, just don't tell me to hang out at McDonalds to pick up women. I don't even like to go to McDonalds here. Burger King is better.

I've just started trying to do the chat room thing. I thought it might be an interesting way to go. Where did you find all the girls for free on the internet?

... in response to Re: agree to disagree, posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

I too dislike McDonalds, but hey, I wanted some coffee and to set and watch chicks ( I'm glad I did now! )
anyway, I used things like classifieds2000.com and point blank told every girl on my first e-mail that I was on my way there and if they wanted to meet just e-mail me. I got many of those agency replies in the begining and began to learn which girls had access to the internet ( usually at their job )and which ones were using a service. If I suspected they were from  a service I would include in my letter that I'm not interested in girls using a service that requires me to pay for their e-mails and translations and so on. I also went into some Russian web sights and God only knows how I found them , and then I would write to those that used english in their personals. I even wrote to some that were in Russian and I could only make out their age and their stats, and wrote them in English and was very surprised to get some good replies! My wife tells me that the majority of younger Russians may not speak English but most understand some of it. ?? anyways good luck on your hunt!

... in response to The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

Zink,
I think you have a good handle on the situation.  Agood agency can be extremly valuable in two areas, one as an introduction agency to "meet" a large number of women and two, as a travel coordinator.  What are your goals? To meet the right woman.  The numbers game of agencies are sure better odds of finding Ms. Right than wondering the streets aimlessly in a country that you cannot speak the language.  Once you have found a woman or a group of women that has your interest you will need some help in coordinating your stay.  Hmmm, an agency can do that also.

I never begrudged the money I spent on the agency I used.  Sure I could have rented a flat much better and much cheaper.  I could have hired an interpreter and a driver for less.  But at the time, I didn't know enough about the city or country to do so.  Oh, and just what is the value of meeting, romancing and marrying the woman of your dreams?  They would have been a bargin at twice the price!

Too many guys here worry about the nickle and dime crap and forget what their goals really are.  (I am not talking about you Zink)  So you save a couple of bucks on a flat and don't have a successful trip.  What have you saved?  What is the value of your wasted time?  Are you going for a vacation or to meet women?  I traveled to Russia to meet one woman in particular.  I also met a few other women as a back up plan.  The agency I used was responsible for getting Lena and I together.  That alone was worth whatever they wanted to charge.  
KenC

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing, posted by KenC on Jan 14, 2002

One of my favorite Russian sayings and I have seen this happen many times here.  Going there,  it may be a very good idea to have a little expertise and service waiting for you when you arrive.  Sure,  its going to cost you a couple of bucks.  You're on vacation,  not the coupon clippers..." Russia on a Dollar a Day Group".  A good travel agency that has set this up a thousand times before can keep the travel smooth.  And a reputable Agency over there will make it easier for the first timer to meet a variety of girls.  Now,  maybe someone has the idea that they can hang out at a McDonalds or a street corner with their pidgin Russian and meet and begin a relationship with a high-quality RW/UW girl...I think you gotta be nuts or feelin' lucky or both.  Maybe if you have very fluent Russian and can keep a 5 minute conversation going in native Russian...and you are lookin' good.  Otherwise,  I think all you are gonna catch is chum.  Then again,  maybe you're feelin' lucky.....personally,  I think,  this is not the way to go for the first time do-it-your-selfer.  IMHO

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing, posted by KenC on Jan 14, 2002

My personal experience with agencie(S) has been very good. I met a girl through friendfinder who was using the Internet Cafe ( Agency ). We were having communication problems as she had an arrogant attitude. I pointed this out to the Agency and they suprisingly had another girl write to me saying she would like to meet me. I visited this girl in November and we have been corresponding ever since. I will note that I used First Dream for my travel itinerary from Kiev to Lugansk. So I diversified my trip between two different Agencies. Being inexperienced in a foriegn land I felt the money was well spent for security and knowledge purposes. Who wants to take a 14 hour train ride "alone" after an 18 hour flight? Anna from Lugan-Girl was very sweet and escorted me as interpreter. I learned about the language and other things on that train ride. I do believe I could handle the train ride alone on a second trip but would use First Dream to escort me to the Kiev train station and purchase the train tickets. I also would need someone to meet me at the train station ( my friend ) or a service as how could I speak to the Russian speaking taxi driver and hotel clerk? You see unless you speak Russian and know the area you will need someone to help you. And lets say this girl who I was introduced to turns out to be a great friend and a beautiful wife? What kind of price tag would you put on that? I suggest before anyone gets involved with this they should write down a plan listing all the expensives required. Unless you are comfortable financially with this you have to reconsider if you want to seriously get involved. Also if you are paraniod and cannot give someone your trust without it being broken you might not want to take the risks involved. I think anyone who is cautious and patient will be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Actions speak louder than words and that goes for over 90% of what you will read on the board. My two cents worth.

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing, posted by KenC on Jan 14, 2002

I've never posted what I spent. It's a little embarrassing. It's way up into the thousands of dollars. Just think average cost per trip $2-3000 x 3 trips. I know that doesn't even cover all the costs. Almost every spare dollar I made in over a year went into this. And I'm back at the beginning again. Most was in travelling expenses and helping my lady and her family. My agency costs were about $1000 at the one and maybe several hundred more at all the others. There is no cheap way to do this.

I've learned a lot in the last 2 years. The only bad part is now I'm even more choosy on the women than before. When I started I was kind of overwhelmed that these women would be interested in me. I would have settled for anyone who gave me some attention. I had some success with an incredibly pretty, very amazing woman. I don't want to settle for less than she was. If anything I want even more than she was. This isn't going to be easy. The ladies have more than a little say in the matching. And it'll take a special woman to put up with me on a daily basis.

I am very independant. I like to do my own thing. But I am smart enough to know when I'm out of my league. Finding somebody that you like and can work closely with would be good. The old fashioned Yenta maybe? The most personalized agencies are by far the most expensive. But if you're serious maybe they'd be worth it. But right now I'm enjoying trying to do it myself.

... in response to Re: Re: The Agency Thing, posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

You've probably said before...

But what happened to the "pretty, very amazing woman?"

... in response to So... What happened?, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 14, 2002

I took her to Sochi in October. We had a series of very stupid fights because we're both hard headed. We quit talking about anything important. Then her sister came and moved into our room with us. After that we never had a chance to talk at all. Her sister was sick and I didn't want to throw her out to solve my problems. And my lady wouldn't leave her sister for more than a few minutes at a time. We were always too busy to talk.

She also did a couple of things that finally drove it home that she didn't want me. Before this I thought it was outside problems causing the tension between us. But it was us. I tried to get her to tell me why she was even with me if she didn't like me. She kept putting off the answer. I ended up leaving Russia never knowing exactly what went wrong or what I did right to keep her attention for so long.

We decided to stay friends and kept in contact until Christmas. After that she missed our scheduled contact times. I haven't heard from her since. I wanted to ask my friends about her but they moved and I don't have their adress.

So that's the end of a 19 month long love affair for me.

... in response to The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

Zink,

I understand your questions, but I think the first important thing is SAFETY. The next one is the QUALITY of your trip. You can have a very-very cheap trip, but it might take you a dozen of those to get to the desired result.

My very first suggestion would be either to select a person who you are comfortable to work with or the city. If you select a person (owner of the agency, agency representative) - make yourself comfortable working with that person. Don't jump in, ask questions, have many conversations, if you have doubts - move on... When you reach the level you feel comfortable discuss the business and costs associated. Decent businesses will not charge you much upfront and hold their fees till you are satisfied.

The other approach would be to select a city and make it your "work" territory :) I would advise to select a city which has a US consulate or wide representation of foreign companies. If you are smart enough to go with the city which has US Consulate, you can get a list of intepretors, compaines providing accomodations, etc. US COnsulate will assist you with registration and any other questions you might have.

That is my outlook at it. I am sure it would not suit "desperate" person or someone who aims for a minimum cost.  I think your approach of going by yourself or doing it on your own without agency or anybody'a help is good for someone who lived in the country for a while, has personal contacts and aware of all the realities.

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

When will your agency be up and running?

... in response to Your agency, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 14, 2002

It is actually running. I just work ONLY on personal basis and I am too busy to update my website. I have a full-time job, serve on Tacoma-VLadivostok Sister City Committee organizing cultural events and exchanges, so I am capable of taking only a couple clients a year whom I help starting from introduction to filing documents for adjustment of status. Catalogs are not my style...
So yes, "matchmaker, matchmaker make me a match" :)

BTW, I just saw that show last week too :)

"if I were a rich man....."

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

I never thought about the consulates. Canada only has two in Russia, ST Pete. and Moscow. But the US consulates would probable offer the same help to any western traveller.

Here's a question for you. How do you find any business in Russia? How do you search for contacts if you are already on the ground there with no internet access? In Canada or the US I'd use a phone book's yellow pages as a start. I never saw a Russian phone book.

My lady was able to find anything I wanted in Volgograd if she had half a day to look. But she usually did the searching when she wasn't with me. She did use classifieds from the newspapers some. Other than that it seemed to be a lot of call a friend who knows a friend who knows a company. Even if I spoke fluent Russian I don't think I could find businesses as fast as she did.

And one last question. Do you know reliable agencies in and around Vladivostok? I'm thinking of going back to Russia in June and haven't decided where exactly. I might go back to Volgograd but I doubt it.

... in response to Re: Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

Zink,

I worked for US company in Vladivostok before coming to US, so I have pretty good contacts established in the community - I worked with the company who would bring US consultants to work in the Russian Far East so we had to provide them with accomodations, interpretor, driver, etc.
There are a lot of Universities in Vladivostok, so we never had any problems with interpretors. It is also a big port city, so foreigners are not a big surprise there. Infrastructure still desires a lot of improvement, but it's still much better than in many other cities in Russia or Ukraine.

Vladivostok has a number of post office (especially downtown) which has a room with computers connected, so it's not a problem to get on Internet. US Consulate in Vladivostok has a good contact list printed out in their office as well as on the website. What do you mean by the business your lady was trying to find? You mean the one providing translation services?

If you need contacts in Vladivostok, e-mail me. I am planning trip to Vladivostok in June myself (though I will be going with different group, Tacoma is Vladivostok's sister city so I am involved in that a lot).  But that does not mean that you can not come along and have your own agenda.

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Re: Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

That's the best offer I've had in awhile. I'll e-mail you later. I'm going to do a little research on Vladivostok. I only know a little about that city.

Actually I've never hired an interpretor while I was in Russia. I did occasionally hire somebody that spoke English(tour guide, museum curator, taxi in Moscow). My lady spoke some English, I speak some Russian. With occasional help from a dictionary we were able to understand each other. My Russian is pretty bad but when you've spent as much time talking together as we did you start to understand. Sometimes my lady had to translate my Russian into proper Russian for her family.

The types of businesses I had her looking for were certain types of shops(hunting, computer and I forget what else), an internet cafe, travel agency and tour company. She also had to find apartments for me. We did our own arrangements for travelling from Volgograd to Sochi while I was in Volgograd. It was cheaper than me doing it from here. I was just curious about how a Russian would find businesses in general.

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

Yes, Ken C and Russian Wife, it would be good to know which agencies really meet the definition of honesty, competency, and support. I feel sometimes I spend too much time scouting for small, personal agencies in mid sized cities, hoping the field hasn't been diluted too much. The small agencies, however valuable they may be, are hard to find, and many may be just scam shops waiting for passing fish like me.

Other than Jack's service, any others that really shine?

... in response to Competence and The Agency Thing(long), posted by ChipShot on Jan 14, 2002

I did not use any local agencies to make female contacts for me, but I did use a local travel agency to take care of my accomodations and local travel the first time I went over.  It was called Triada Travel, and the agent assigned to me was quite efficient in taking care of my needs.  If you search the web, you can find them pretty easily.

The second time I went over, I used a local over in Ukraine named Dmitri Pugach, who used to post here.  His service was very good but he was also very expensive, compared to the travel agency.  At times I felt like I was getting soaked for whatever they could get out of me.  Still, his contacts were good and everything I requested was done exactly to my tastes.  He does have a slightly jaundiced view of Americans, but given what he's been asked to do by various men, I can't say that I blame him.

As far as setting up dates over there, I had my date set up long before I went.  While I had all my eggs in one basket, I wouldn't recommend it for most people.  My lady and I were intimately familiar with each other's thoughts and feelings before meeting, and so I wasn't too worried.  If it hadn't worked out, I would have treated it as a vacation and arranged for some sightseeing.  I wouldn't have counted it so much as a failure as a learning experience, and also a unique adventure.

I think having two or three contacts set up is a better route to go, and stick to those contacts.  Don't let the first girl steal all the time.  Have some willpower and at least spend one day with each of the other ladies you have arranged to see.  You'll be more sure of your choice if you do so.

As far as setting up meetings with girls after you get over there, well, I really think that the odds are going to be stacked against you.  You will not find the girls you are looking for, or else likely get hooked up with professional daters.  I strongly suggest that you have your dates lined up and fully qualified before you ever step on the plane.

As always this is simply my 2¢ and strictly my opinion.  Your mileage may vary...

... in response to Competence and The Agency Thing(long), posted by ChipShot on Jan 14, 2002

Chip,
I had very good luck with Lifetime Partners.  They are more expensive than most, but very sincere people.  They also offer some unusual "perks" like videos and free email with interpretations.  The higher expenses come once you visit as there daily charge is high.  There are more than a few people within their organization that consider themselves very good matchmakers.  I will also say that the weakest eliment of their business is the photography.  Keep this in mind if you visit their website.
KenC

... in response to Re: The Agency Thing(long), posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

You probably told us before...

But how did you meet your husband?

Did you go to an agency? And, if so, how did you choose one?

... in response to BTW, Russian Wife, posted by MarkInTx on Jan 14, 2002

As I posted above in my reply to Zink I worked for US company before coming to US. One of the consultants I worked with introduced me to my future husband (he is a very good friend of his Dad). We communicated for a while, than this company sent me to US for two-weeks training and we finally met. Couple months later, my husband come to Vladivostok and after he left I found out that I was awarded scholarship to come to USA to attend Univerisity. I came to USA in august of 1998 and went to school on the East coast. We got married on June 1999 and after I got done with the school moved to the West coast. About a year was spent fighting for legal adjustment (these types of visas have a special clause that you are required to return to Russia for two years after graduation), but everything worked out pretty well :)

That's our story very briefly. We have been married for 2,5 years by now and have known each other for about 4 years now. We are very happy and I don't think we even had any major disagreement or fight :)

... in response to Re: BTW, Russian Wife, posted by RW on Jan 14, 2002

Kind of coincindence...my good friend, Bob, has a fiancee named Ludmilla who lives in Vladivostok and works for an American company. She visited Houston last year for several weeks. She is planning to visit here again next month on a medical visa.

Sound familiar?

-blm

... in response to Hey RW..., posted by BarryM on Jan 14, 2002

As I mentioned there are many US companies in Vladivostok and there are many students majoring in English, so I might know her or might not. Hard to say without knowing her last name and what company she works for.

That is actually really cool in Vlad - having Consulate in the city, plus working for US company there are much more opprtunities to travel.

... in response to The Agency Thing(long), posted by Zink on Jan 14, 2002

If I was going to embark on a search I have come to the conclusion that Jack would be the guy to call.  Pick a city or two and go.