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I have noticed some posters( most recently JohnK) saying that their RW’s are critical of America and Americans. I wonder if these attitudes are formed after the lady arrives or does she come with some preconceived notion of America, namely

a)Russia and its culture is superior
b)Life in America is like a Hollywood movie.

In the first case a. Why would a woman advertise in a catalogue for a foreign husband if he is from an inferior culture? Case b. The woman become disillusioned after discovering that money doesn’t grow on trees in the US. Ok , we know that RW wants to leave because of  economic factors and drunk, wife beating RM, or as some ladies put it – they just want a good man – age, nationality, physical appearance etc are irrelevant. Surely it is up to the RW to consider if she is willing to give friends, family and country to be with a foreign husband, to do the possible and impossible to blend in and adjust to a new lifestyle. Its up the AM to be supportive of RW during her first few years when he must practically babysit her before she can venture out alone. So we have to take a new factor into consideration when choosing an RW. A young woman who has never left her mother’s home or travelled beyond her own city might have more difficulty in adjusting.

So what exactly are these criticisms of America. JohnK’s RW speaks of Americans wearing masks. Is being polite and considerate( or at least pretending) to your fellow citizens means you are wearing a mask? Or would you rather deal with a stone faced Russian clerk or bureaucrat who expects to be bribed to do his job. JohnK’s RW speaks of Ukrainians being more ‘opinionated’. Hey, I travelled to about 40 countries and the loudest, most boisterous and who speak their minds are Americans. Now I have lot of Latino friends who are critical of America but they are in no hurry to leave. Neither are the Russians of NY and San Francisco I suppose.

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

Hopefully this won't be taken out of context again, but here are a few ideas based on my wife's perceptions:

1)  America was exactly what she thought it would be and less:  My wife grew up watching "Santa Barbara" almost every day.  Apparently, it was quite the popular soap opera in Ukraine for a number of years.  It's still running, but Ukrainians have less of a fascination for it now.  Other American shows also abound in Ukrainian television, including a number of "Grade B" television shows that never made it beyond cable here.

Marina's first impression when she arrived was almost surreal.  She felt almost as if she was in a television show at times.  Everything she saw on TV, she was now seeing here.  The only thing was that the context was now skewed for her.  Things that were big in the viewer's eyes were common here and the little things she ignored turned out to be important.  

So, there are indeed preconceived notions of how America is like for most Russian women arriving here.

2) America is exciting, well, maybe not:  Television is meant to be entertaining all the time.  Real life can often be boring.  Marina's beginning of her American life started in Iowa.  Does the word Iowa bring excitement to your heart when you hear it?  For most people it doesn't, for good reason.  Iowa has mostly a laid back culture, and as such, it certainly took its toll on my wife's patience.  When you leave a city of 2.5 million and move to an Iowa "city" of 150,000 you leave certain big city benefits behind.

3) America is rich, isn't it?:  That is one of the largest misconceptions that Russian people experience.  Many Russian people believe that all Americans are rich.  If a lady is known to be dating or married to an American man, she and her immediate family come under a lot of pressure and criticism.  Apparently, the russian family is automatically considered immediately "well off" through their association with the American man.  Consequently, people make their lives harder, simply out of jealousy, perversity, or both.  Also, they come under a lot of pressure to "share the wealth", by their friends and relatives...

Hopefully, that will give some of you some concepts to mull over.  American culture precedes us, and our Russian counterparts know us much better than we know them, even if the looking glass is warped.  At least they have a point of reference to begin with...

Other old timers please feel free to add to these perceptions/myths...

... in response to Some more info to ponder, posted by John K on Jan 9, 2002

My aim in reposting your original post above was to give the guys some insight on a RUSSIAN perception of America, so that they would take the necessary steps to help their future wives in the process of adjustment. Unfortunately it was interpreted by some posters as an attack American culture. Anyway thank you for another good post and keep posting.

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

Here are a few items that I've noticed from talking to various Russian/Slavic people:

1) American "distance":  Americans distance themselves from each other.  In Russia, everyone knows their neighbors and often neighbors rely on each other to resolve problems.  In America, we often hardly know the person in the apartment next to us.  Distance also occurs between two people interacting in public.  Small talk is common, but little beyond pleasantries is exchanged.  Consequently, Americans are seen as having a "mask" on, hiding the real person behind it.

2) Culture.  Sorry guys, but the average Russian turns on the TV here and what do you get?  Jerry Springer, Oprah, Tic-Tac-Dough, brainless sitcoms, 400 different "reality" shows, and the Public Access channel.  Hmmm, I really don't think that is going to impress them.  Yes, there are cultural events you can go to if you want, but the general public usually doesn't have an interest in it.  The latest episode of Ren and Stimpy or Southpark is more appealing.

3) Provincialism: Russians learn about all cultures while going to school.  They know their own history, European history, and American history.  Students usually study one or more additional languages during school.  They watch television programs and movies from different countries all the time.  Then they come to America and find that all we know or care about is America.  How do you think that affects our worldly image?

4) Exercise/Fitness:  The average Russian walks countless miles/kilometers a day, doing their normal course of business.  We get in the car to run to the grociery store a block and a half away.  Sidewalks exist everywhere in Ukraine, but most towns/small cities have little for walking, unless you are downtown.  What's the first thing that happens to a Russian when they come to America?  They gain a lot of weight.  But I've noticed that Russians are quick to start losing it, once it becomes noticeable.

5) Self Image:  Russians pride themselves on looking good.  They dress well, if they can.  Women wear makeup.  They go to the gym and work out.  They come here and see fat slobs running around in blue jeans, tshirts, and a baseball cap worn backwards.  Or some punk/goth idiot with hair in three different colors, ears, nose, eyebrows, lips, and tongue pierced.  Gee, I wonder what that makes them think?

6) Youth and manners:  Russians work hard to raise their children to be polite and respectful.  Then they visit here and see our children running amok, without any parental supervision.  Life among the heathens certainly doesn't seem to appealing to them for some reason...

7) "In your face" cultural influence:  Walk down a busy street and you have some kid drive by with the windows down, stereo blaring some rap tune while the subwoofer rattles the city block.  Turn on the tube and you see Jerry Springer talking to the dregs of society, who use gutter slang to talk about their "exploits" as if it were something to be proud about.  Well, me and my "homies" ain't makin' sugah happenin' for the roosky types.  Ya hear what I'm sayin?

Need I go on?  What we seek in Russian women is a salvation from the things they are going to hate once they get here.  We bring them to cultural hell to save us.  Do you think they are just going to thank us for it?  And we wonder why they don't like America...

Just something to think about.

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

Think about it.  Say the Russian economy was as good as the U.S. - where would you rather live?  

Freedom - I still say we would have alot more.

Security - when someone knocks on your door in the U.S. it is not the police coming to take you away, but it may a criminal.  In Russia it increasingly may be both.

Race Relations - By the year 2020 there will be more non-whites than whites in the U.S.  By the year 2050 America will be closer to Brazil than the U.S.  By the year 2100 at current population trends the U.S. will be closer to Africa than anything else.  Russia will be white.

Future - where do you think the best place is for your gene pool? In defense of the U.S., the world is becoming increasingly smaller.  Still, I feel any thinking white man is looking back to his roots.

Culture ie. art, balet, theatre etc, - it is just as good in New York as Russia (though without the history), but you have to pay through the nose for it.  Washington, D.C. is like a second class Russian city, San Fransciso is like a third class Russian city and the rest of our country is a cultural wasteland to the average Russian.  Movies, Disneyworld, football, chain restaurants and parades are not culture.

Society - mobile car in the U.S. vs urban / small city / towns in Russia.  People can get to either and like them both, so I say it is a wash.  It just may be a tough adjustment at first for the Russian / Ukrainian lady.

Environment - If it is the West or South it probably is much different than she is used to.  Still, like society it is just a matter of getting used to.

Believe me, Russian women are thinking about everything.

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by Bobby Orr on Jan 5, 2002

I only wish I could have written what you did in your post.
When you say, paying through the nose, it is for an elite class.  you are right.

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

http://cooltech.iafrica.com/technews/514559.htm

... in response to best places to live........., posted by yoe on Jan 5, 2002

out by Norway!  Be thankful that your neighbour sets such a good example (and offers wonderful value to it's US visitors). Come visit us and bring lots of money!!
The warm winter has depressed our Natural Gas sales.  :-)

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

I think what these woman think when talk about not liking America etc. The are referring to the culture.  I mean this is also why most of us want a RW/UW because of the culture they bring to our lives.  (Tight families, commitment etc) Lets face it most of us do not like American woman because of their values but we all still want to live in America.  These women do not understand the culture issue until they get here then they see what we have been seeing and freak.  I feel as most of us men do, the country is good but the people are, well still have some things to learn.

Ryan

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by Ryan on Jan 5, 2002

I went to a movie the other day that was extremely offensive.  It was portrayed as a teen comedy film in advertisements.  There were a lot of lesbian and homosexual images in the film and I was offended.  I also noticed that in a Jim Carrey movie I watched on TV a few weeks ago.  Who thinks this cr@p is funny?  I am concerned what a Russian woman will think if I accidentally take her to one of these movies.  

I think our culture is becoming more debased and the culture gap between the US and Russia might just be getting wider as we get even trashier.

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by Ryan on Jan 5, 2002

Ryan,
Just what is your experience when it comes to RW in America?
KenC
ps (Please take more time to write more legible posts.  They are confusing with all the typos, spelling and grammar errors.)

... in response to excuse me, posted by KenC on Jan 6, 2002

It was my point of view of what she might have been feeling not my experience.  I didn't think that was a requirement for all posts.  Why don't you just chill-out?  Why is it that you never have an original post you always have to comment on other’s posts?  Someone said that “perceptions is reality” in your case and your buddies I think this is so true.  You give the perception that you are so experienced and know it all threw actually having done it that your some sort of expert.  Please stop with your attacks, it is getting old.
Ryan  

... in response to Re: excuse me, posted by Ryan on Jan 7, 2002

Ryan,
You are paranoid with your "attack" claims.  I have nicely stated that you are guessing at your answer without any experience on the subject matter.  And yes, in this case, I am much more experienced than you.  The point is that you are stating uninformed opinions as though they were factual.  This particular post of your's is off target.  As for my original posts; they are many and are ALWAYS based on actual experiences.  Please refer to my post above regarding RW at the movies.
KenC
ps (Please use a dictionary as your grammar/spelling is shameful for an ex-teacher)

... in response to I hate America, posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

You are right and you are wrong.  All is not as clean cut as you suppose things to be.
It all does not depend in the country, but the education the person as received and how the person lives with what
she acquires.
The USA is a nice country, that's all.  As far as been rich and having it all, it way down the list.
Germany, Suisse and the Scandinavian countries are way ahead in every department for their citizens.  The rest of
westen Europe is doing pretty well, also.
When people travel in search of the rarest and dearest commodity on earth, LOVE, they should be very modest,
perhaps the people accepting them are doing them a favor.  Not the other way around.
This post is not meant as a put down for you or anyone else.  It is my personal view of life.

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

Hold on a minute, pal. Although I've never been out of the states, I must dispute the idea that Germany is way ahead of the USA in every way; because I have a German aunt (by marriage). My uncle, (not the husband of the aunt in question), is moderately well off and travels to Europe fairly often. My aunt is very demanding that he bring over various items which she says she cannot get in Germany. In other words, she is saying that she cannot obtain goods of the same quality at home. From what my uncle has told us: it is not an issue of cost, but rather of lack of availability.

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

Germany, Switzerland and all the scandinavian countries combined don't equal the US's wealth. If you combined Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland, the combined GDP is only about 25% of the US's GDP.

The big difference is that these European countries don't have regions that are almost third world to drag down the per capita GDP and other economic measurement statistics and ratios. A good example is the Rio Grande valley of Texas. There are still colonias there with no running water and substandard housing.

Since we are putting our personal opinions out there, let me give you mine, a lot of Canadians have an inferiority complex when it comes to the US. I can count numerous posts on various message boards where Canadians seem to have little snide things to say about the US. My country is like my brother, he has faults and I tell him so, but if anybody else has any negative things to say about him, I am going to take up for him.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to You are wrong, posted by Reagan on Jan 5, 2002

....and your attitude classicly shows what is wrong with Americans in general.

America may have some wealth but in general it also has an arrogant, uneducated, uncultured population who thinks the world revolves around them. Not to mention the scum who run the government and ignore the peoples wishes, political correctness that makes me want to vomit, and absolutely no common sense when it comes to caring for either it's elderly or young people.

This "country" can be defined four ways: It's land, it's people, it's culture and it's government. Everything else derives from those four things. The land is great, the people fat, dumb and lazy, the culture non- exsistant and the current leaders should be jailed as the criminals they are. (Or worse.)

Besides, the very fact that these so called educated people would elect your namesake for 8 years and then hold him up as a great choice is enough to prove my point. (Lets not even mention the moron currently running the show.)

No wonder the world hates us, it's people like you that are the problem. That and our arrogant, interfering politics. I don't agree with Osama's methods, but I sure understand his and his peoples hatred. We made this bed and now have to lay in it.

In general, America is a far cry from the best and it's mostly only good for exploiting. If it weren't for the weather I'd take Canada or Norway *anyday*. The people of these countries alone make Americans look like the true chumps many really are.

... in response to No, you are wrong...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

First of all, Reagan is my middle name and I was born in 1964, way before Ronald Reagan was elected. I used to post by my first name, but someone registered it when Patrick changed the board. By the way, he will go down in history as one of the greatest Presidents. What is your claim to fame? George W. Bush has a really tough job right now and I doubt he cares that a nobody like you calls him a moron. A lot of liberals have called him worse and I have yet to see him use petty name calling to answer their insults. Jealousy, envy, and namecalling are first cousins.

All you do is offer up generalizations. Saying everyone in America is arrogant, uneducated,..ect is like saying everyone in Canada says "eh" everytime they ask a question. There are lots of jerks and morons in every country in the world. Good god, how old are you anyway?

No country is perfect. As I said before, I get tired of dripping faucets, nagging women, and the tired old anti-American hyperbole and whining that Canadians and radical Americans like you like to spew.

Why don't you move to Canada or Norway? While you are at it, why don't you renounce your American citizenship and never come back. I doubt anyone will miss you.

Cheers

Kevin R as in Reagan Jones.

... in response to More unprovable generalizations, posted by Reagan on Jan 6, 2002

....Me thinks that Stetson you be wearin is a mite too tight partner, it's squeezin your brain.

..Reagan will go down as one of our greatest presidents? lol, Now *thats* a perfect example of how ignorant many Americans are.

You forget he ran the show in California and messed it up real bad also. History will show his terms to be one of the greatest financial disasters ever perpetrated upon the American people. His foreign policies were a joke, his wife was a serious piece of work, and his choice of a VP showed just how stupid he really was. He was good at one thing: BSing people like you. Now he's drooling someplace and can't even function. Of course, how could we tell the difference?

In addition, he never ran the country. The people who ran *him* ran the country. In fact, he was such a puppet I can almost forgive him. lol, I always expected him to break down during news conferences and start malfunctioning, like the Lincoln exhibit at Disneyland.

Old George W has a tough job right now?  Yeah, it takes a *lot* of leadership to pound a third world country *forward* into the stone age. America is good at that, beating up on places like Panama, Grenada and Iraq (in a not so covert attempt to protect "our" oil.) One day we'll have to face a real enemy and we won't do so well. Hell, we couldn't even beat the Vietnamese thanks to another of your "folk" who refused to let us fight properly and he only came to power because Texas couldn't provide adequate security for JFK.

Bush is clearly an uneducated, money grubbing capitalist with little leadership experience other than screwing people outta their money in his prior oil dealings. While I like his no nonsense approach, he's a continual embarresment to watch in action. His shucks, golly, geewhiz demeanor is laughable and reflects poorly on the leader of the most pwerful nation on Earth. And if you have yet to see him resort to name calling, I suggest you spend more time watching him. At least he's harmless and won't do near the damage Ronnie did. Fwiw, he's the lesser of the two evils, considering it could have been Gore.

All I can offer is generalizations, same as you. The difference is the world agrees with me while only narrow minded rednecks, Bubbas, hog farmers and coal miners agree with you. If you had traveled as much as I have you wouldn't be so quick to defend this sorry ass place. Course, the studies that showed Canada to be the best place to live for six straight years were done by idiots who had never hunkered down at Billy Bob's BBQ, right?

No country is perfect and this one is going down the toilet because of people like you who can't even see how manipulated they are. In fact, I bet you were out at Waco cheering them on, huh? Geez, how can Yanks have appreciation of the world outside their own borders if they can't even see the problems within them?

Spare me the "love it or leave it" crap, it's just another indication of your backwater perspective. I payed my dues and served my country when you were still a toddler, and did it when I didn't quite believe in doing so. How bout you? Done anything other than watch King of the Hill reruns and pound down Budwieser at the local Hooters? And if ya don't mind, I'll stay, someone needs to protect America from the likes of your kind. lol, I bet in a former life you were a British citizen during the late 1700's.

*I* get tired of rednecks and uneducated smucks who don't know anything about history and spend all their time waving the flag just because they have a job, pickup truck, a gun, and a case of Coors.

"Reagan will be seen as a great president". lol, Sure he will, just like Clinton and the other yokels who continue to screw us while sipping mint julips out by the ceement pond.

If I were you, I'd change my name and move.

... in response to Yeah sure...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

You make all kinds of assumptions about me and the US that you can't prove. So far you are batting 1000 because you haven't got anything right. You are only capable of hurling insults. Anyone that makes fun of a man that has alzheimers has issues. People like you are scary because they shoot their mouth off without thinking. As for being uneducated, you are obviously talking about yourself. Anyone that has taken a freshman philosophy class can tell you that your arguments are full of fallacies.

I am sure this will prompt you into writing another rambling, frothing at the mouth diatribe with more of your unprovable BS. As for all your provincial comments, at least I have the balls to say where I am from which is more than can be said for you.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to Yeah sure...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

:-)

... in response to wow, I'm glad I never got you that 'work..., posted by Stan B on Jan 6, 2002

...I'm not worked up, its only a friendly disscusion between Tex and me. He can take it, them good ol' boys down there have thick skins.

Only Yoey has worked me up and that was only one time when he was being a thoughtless weenie. (lol, normally he's just a weenie.)

But I should know better, you know what they say: Two things you should never discuss are religion and politics.

Me thinks I'll add a third one to that: FSU Women! :-)

... in response to Nah..., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

.....was wrong Stan! lol, he ain't so thick skinned after all!

"Frothing at the mouth"!...lol, he's good!

... in response to Guess I...., posted by LP on Jan 7, 2002

complement. As for your frothing, don't feel bad, dogs do it to when they get excited.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to No, you are wrong...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

I couldn't have said it any better.  We think that we are a powerful country, but really we have no control over anything.  The people really in charge are the wealthy.  The presidential election should prove that.  Our country is less corrupt than areas like Russia, but we still have a lot of room for improvement.

... in response to You are correct,, posted by Jeff on Jan 6, 2002

Surely you are not this naive.
The "wealthy" are in control of every country on earth. They always have been and always will be--unless God takes over.
In America the rich are held in check more than they are in most countries, though.

... in response to You are correct,, posted by Jeff on Jan 6, 2002

In North America a "special interest or lobby group" may just happen to have a condo in Bermuda, Bahamas or Aspen "vacant" for a few weeks, and of course being such 'good friends' this is offered without charge to a 'bureaucrat' who is able to 'assist' in the organizations achieving it's goals.
Naw, never happens in North America?? Of couse not!!!!!
Is there any true difference between such a scenario, and one where a briefcase full of money is taken by one person into a 'negotiating room', and exits in the care of another?

... in response to No, you are wrong...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

older (and hopefully a little wiser) or I'm becoming cynical as all get out.
But, over the past while I find myself agreeing with you more and more - scary stuff!!  :-)
Keep it up (the posting I mean!!).  :-)

... in response to Geez, G***, I'm either getting......., posted by Del on Jan 6, 2002

.....cynicism are inseperatble or at least there is a very fine line between them. Well, I suppose  one can be cynical in their youth, but most of the older folks I know are pretty "wised up".

Everybody has an opinion and it's *sometimes* colored by where they're from and their experiences. For example, I have nothing but fond memories of dealing with "you people" during dozens of trips made many years ago. I still cross often into Canada by private aircraft and your Customs Officers in particular could teach ours *alot*, they are such a pleasure to deal with. (Ours are rude thugs with the opinion that everyone is smuggling dope.)

From dealing with cops in Quebec, lumber folks in Halifax and BC, oil people in Calgary and the NWT, pilots in the Yukon and everyone else in between, I found your people to be a kind and understanding lot. Sure, they had some complaints about us, but they never held it against me in the slightest way and were unflinchingly hospitable. In fact, I recently had to deal with the firearms people in your government and found them exceedling polite and helpful. Here, I would have been given the third degree. American freedoms? Yeah, right.

Reagan is just waving the flag. While patriotism here is rampant these days, I'm stunned that more heads are not being lopped off. Seems most Americans don't understand cause and effect, another sign of arrogance induced blindness. Also, you were dealing with a Texan and, like other places in the US (the South and the Heartland come to mind), they are known to be excessive flag wavers. I like Texan's no BS attitude but they always think the US is so great. Hell, they typically think Texas is the best place in the US. Of course, the rest of us know different and Texans are sometimes a tad too sensitive about the image they know most other Americans have of them.

Besides, I'm a Californian. Texans and Californians can reach critical mass if they get within 100 miles of each other, it's like matter/anti-matter. (Actually, I'm was born and raised on Cape Cod, Mass (Kennedy country) so I'm really skewed.) FWIW, I have little good to say about California also, you won't find me defending it's image in America. It's justified and, although I've escaped it twice, I keep coming back for the money and WX. Since we're so mutli-cultural here in Ca, that may be why there is less flag waving in general, at least in the urban areas where it long ago stopped resembling any America I remember.

(lol, I'd like to try Texas, but I'm afraid of being tarred, feathered, and strung up when they found out I was a Californian *or* a Yankee, I'm screwed either way.)

At any rate, if it weren't for the WX, me thinks a house on the Frazier (near Prince George), or even around Edmonton would be very nice. Sadly, the winter would kill a me in short order.

... in response to lol...age, wisdom and...., posted by LP on Jan 6, 2002

around Calgary.

... in response to You are wrong, posted by Reagan on Jan 5, 2002

Reagan, while I do respect your opinion very much and understand that you have a right ot it.
You are way off base.
If the US had any wealth as you say, medecal care would be free, so would be schooling all the way to university,
the per capita for people in jail would be so much lower and on and on.
Let say that the US are populated by very good (naive) people, but the place is run by a bunch of thieves.
Let say that the anglo-saxon world is about dead.
On something else, Germany can buy the Us for cash tomorrow and sell it on credit the day after.
In Switzerland you can leave your car unlock almost anywhere and nothing will be stolen.
In some sandinavian countries, they pay you to go to college
Very few countries in the world can say that all children go to school every day, eat every day and do get the
health care they need.  Cuba is one of them.     It is not because some thiefs are rich in your country, that it does
make you rich.          It is not personal, this post, it is only that most american are school by t.v. and have a very
narrow view of the world.
I do thank the USA for all they did for me, but I left, because what is the use of having money, if you are always
eating big Mac, no matter which you slice it.

... in response to Re: You are wrong, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

No medical care is free. How do you think Canada pays for healthcare? It's called taxes. I knew before I read this post that the healthcare thing would come up. Why don't you explain all the Canadian license plates at Doctor's offices in US border cities? Why don't you explain why a recent flu epidemic in Canada resulted in deaths from the common flu because hospital emergency rooms were overwhelmed? So much for your vaunted healthcare system which is headed down the same road as the NHS in the UK.

You are off your rocker. Cuba, give me a break. Cuba has great healthcare, but for some reason, everyone is broke in spite of all the Canadians and Europeans on sex tours. It's called communism. Educated women, including doctors, sell their bodies to Canadians and Europeans because the Cuban healthcare system is so great. What a country!

As for a country being run by thieves, well your country so happens to have politicians also.

You don't back up anything with provable information, you just insult my country with your own biased opinion.

As for your Germany envy, the US has a per capita GDP of 33900 while Germany's is 22800. (Time Almanac 2002, p.709)

As for your theory that most Americans are educated by TV, what a joke. Where is your documented proof of that? That silly statement goes hand in hand with the theory that only 20% of Americans have passports, well that is still more than the entire population Canada. In addition, the US has more overseas diplomatic representation in more countries and territories than any other country in the world.

As for a narrow view of the world, what do you call the laws in Quebec concerning the use of English on commercial signs? Here in America, there is no such narrow law.

The problem with most America bashers is that they are just jealous and don't have their facts straight. America is not perfect, but neither is Canada.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to Re: You are wrong, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

Micha,
There's no such thing as free medical care. Just like there's no free lunch. If there is a national health plan like Canada, there has to be taxes to pay for it, right?

If medical care is run by the government, then it gets politicized and inefficient, next thing you know we have to have a major medical center in Moose Jaw as a sop to the member of Parliament from that area. I'm not saying that the U.S. has the best medical system, just pointing out that there are problems when we try to find utopian solutions.

Free schooling is a bad idea and is part of what's wrong in America. Parents should have to pay a direct fee proportionate to their income. People don't appreciate and demand quality in the services they're receiving unless the money comes out of their pocket. Sure people pay taxes to support the school, but there is no direct exchange that says I'm the customer and I want the best for my money. If you're not paying, you can't complain and demand changes.

Sorry, think we're getting off track. Just remember there's no free ... anything--- as the Russians have learned.

... in response to Re: Re: You are wrong. No such thing as ..., posted by NW Jim on Jan 5, 2002

If it wasn't for decent medical care in that city I would have died 4 years ago. It's more than a sop for the MPs. For some of us it's a matter of survival. Just because I live in an area with low population density, doesn't mean that I should have to forfeit my right to basic necessities.And if we had US style health care my family would have went bankrupt to pay for my surgery. I don't mind paying taxes when they are put to good use. To me hospitals and schools are a good use.

I disagree with you about how people only appreciate things that they had to pay dearly for. Free education(or tax subsidised if you prefer) would be a good idea. But only if you showed that you were willing and able to learn. A high price tag doesn't always indicate high quality. Sometimes good people can't afford to better themselves and need help. I've been dirt poor most of my life. I sweat and bleed for every penny I make. Now things aren't so bad financially for me. But at times I sure would have appreciated a little help.

As for public schooling being poor. Is that the fault of the system or the fault of people who won't try to correct the system? We all have the right(supposedly) to complain if we don't like what we see that the government is doing. Theoretically we control the government. So we shouldn't complain about the systems unless we've been fighting to change them. I agree that too many major decisions are made for purely political reasons with no regard to what is really best. And unfortunately I don't think that will ever change.

You're right that there's no free ride. But way to often people sit and b!tch and never actually try to change what they don't like. That's what is best about life in the west. If we work hard and have a little luck we can make our lives into whatever we want. Some places people don't have that opportunity.

Yes, we're a little of track here but it's better than what's been posted here the in last week.

... in response to Re: You are wrong, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

South Florida is full of people that fled Cuba out of fear.  A person can be thrown in jail just for listening to a US the radio station.  Kids are asked to spy on their parents.  Their income level is only about $10 a month for amenities.  Kids are allowed 3 gifts at Christmas and only if you're a good commie, can you get a bike.  If you got rats, you feed them cement because you can't get rat poison.  Sure medical care is free but it sucks.  We could do as well over the counter.  They still use US cars from the 1950s. Over 50,000 people flee from Cuba to the US every year.  A lot travel by raft and it is a lot riskier to take a raft to the US than people realize.  The Gulf Stream current tends to take them past Miami into the Atlantic, police can shoot at you from the shore and of course there are sharks.  Don't ever bring up Cuba as an example of a good country.  

Even if health care is not free here, most people in the US are healthy and don't have to worry about it.  Hospitals cannot refuse people who need emergency care.  I have read that health care is free in Canada but people get put on waiting lists for important surgery and thousands die every year while they wait unless they can afford to come to the US and pay for it.

... in response to You are wrong, posted by Reagan on Jan 5, 2002

And many Americans have a superiority complex. Canadians can laugh at ourselves. We know that everything is not perfect here. Any time somebody says anything slightly off about the states an American will be happy to ram "AMERICA IS THE GREATEST THERE IS AND EVER WILL BE" down our throats. If you tried to insult a Canadian by saying, "your country isn't the best on the planet", we'd just laugh at you. It really isn't that important. We just get tired of the chest thumping and think it's fun to tease our southern friends. Believe me it's very easy to get you guys going.

And the truth is there are many negative comments that can be made about both our countries. To deny there are negatives just because it's your home is a little foolish. If an American says something bad about the states it's treason. If a foreigner says something bad it's because we're jealous. Maybe there really was something bad there?

You should realize that you can't make people believe in your own greatness by continually telling them how good you are. Just think of this in the context of one person instead of a country. Do you like to be with people that can only talk about how wonderful they are? Doing great deeds makes people great. Not telling everybody about those deeds every chance they get.

... in response to Re: You are wrong, posted by Zink on Jan 5, 2002

Some Canadians have superiority complexes and some Americans laugh at themselves. I just get tired of Canadian mental insecurities and their constant US bashing and whining and I like to tease my Northern friends. Canadian anti-American whining is like a nagging woman or a dripping faucet, it gets old quick.

Your post is nothing more than your personal opinion. You do nothing but generalize about a country and people you obviously don't understand very well. Maybe you have met some American braggarts, or the liberal American media comes off as if they are bragging. You are probably like most Canadians and base your opinion of America off the image presented by the CBC or by Hollywood. America is not as good or as bad as the image provided by those two sources.

I have traveled to Canada many times and I never bragged about my country's greatness or prowess or whatever. I have tremendous respect for Canadians, especially those who gave their lives in places like Normandy or Caen, so people like you can speak English and/or French instead of German. So why don't you thank God for your brave soldiers get off that tired anti-American horse.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to More unprovable generalizations., posted by Reagan on Jan 5, 2002

But I'm bored tonight.

As always my posts are only my opinions. I never claimed they were anything more than that. You are tired of Canadians making snide comments! I'm tired of Americans that think they did everything themselves. You seem angry about what I said. It kind of proves what I said about what happens if someone criticises anything about the US. It was not intended to offend you. I was just trying to point out the major reason why some people don't believe the US is the be all and end all.

You mention Caen and Normandy. I have an incredible amount of respect for the men who were there. But to hear some Americans, Canada and the rest of the Allies sat back and watched the Yanks win the war. I personally know vets from the the Canadian, American, Russian and German armies.

As for understanding the US... History is my hobby. My family came to North America in 1650. We fought on the American side in the Revolutionary war. My family fought on both sides of the Civil War. My family fought on both sides of the Indian Wars. My family served in both the American and Canadian armies WWI and WWII. I know Canadians who volunteered to fight for the US in Vietnam. I almost signed up for the Gulf War but it ended to quickly. I know the US indian reservation system because some of my cousins still live in a hell made by the US government. One of the men who has been a big influence on my life was a career sergeant in the US army. He served a tour in Korea and two in Vietnam.

I have travelled in the US. For the most part the people were very good to me. But there were incidents and comments made that I won't bother going into. And the people who made these comments were blind to the fact that they were condecending and insulting. I am sure that you feel my comments are the same. The only difference is that I understand my point of view might be distasteful for you. I just ain't very good at sugar coating my opinions.

I base my opinion of the US on my experiences and those of my family and friends. I live in Canada because My grandparents drifted for awhile and then ended up here. It wasn't because they hated the US it was because land was cheaper here. I did not say that the US was totally bad or that the people who live there are. I just said that maybe some Americans should tone down their overwhelming need to insult the rest of the world.

I am sorry if you took my comments as a personal insult to yourself. Tolerance is a skill that we all need to learn.

... in response to A rebuttal(way to long and pointless), posted by Zink on Jan 5, 2002

You are very nationalistic, so why are you whining about Americans that are nationalistic?

As for the reservation system, there are no fences around them. The US government does not force the alcoholism and incest upon the Indians, they do that themselves. Having worked on two reservations in North Dakota, I can tell you that the Indians have a welfare system that most Americans don't have and that Canadians would be proud of.

As far as being angry, I am not angry, it's just a dripping faucet or a nagging woman or insecure Canadian whining gets old quick.

Cheers

Kevin

... in response to Stop your nationalistic whininng, posted by Reagan on Jan 6, 2002

You are missing my point completely. I thought that it was possible to have intelligent conversations about the pros and cons, similarities and differences between Canada and the US. I never claimed that I or other Canadians were inherently better than Americans. I was just pointing out that we have different methods of expressing our nationalism. But you want to say I am an ignorant whiner. Your welcome to your opinion.

If you want to talk about the wonderful life that our governments have supplied the natives write me an e-mail. I know many people both native and white who are trying to improve things in Canada and the US for natives. Maybe you know something useful for them.

... in response to Re: You are wrong, posted by Zink on Jan 5, 2002

The problem faced by men on this board whether they be American,Canadian,European etc. is how to be sure that their RW can adapt to a lifestyle away from her own country. A woman that comes over from the onset with a negative attitude is bound to have more problems with her marriage. Of course we are aware of the vices and virtues of our respective countries, that is why we are seeking a foreign bride. The mind frame of an RW much be such that she can accept her new homeland with its good and bad. A popular saying is – Lord help me to change those things that I can and to accept those that I can’t change. The last thing any of us here want is another failed marriage due to RW  failure to adapt or of our own failure to help her through the process.

... in response to Its not about America vs The rest of the..., posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

CW,
Think you and the guys above are dancing around the answer. The Russians are from a recently fallen empire. Remember Russia/USSR was an expansionsist power for almost 1000 years until their defeat in Afghanistan.

With an expansionist empire comes arrogance and belief among its citizens that their culture is superior, and why not?, if you're on top it must be because of your culture, religion, race-ethnicity, love of freedom, etc., etc.
It takes several generations for reality to set in after an empire has collapsed.

Course as Zink and Micha note the same description can be and is applied to citizens of the U.S.

This is one of the reasons I decided not to pursue Russian women. Choose a lady from a country who likes American culture and wants to adapt to it, even though it clearly has flaws that we and others see clearly. By choosing the MOB route we are also shaping the culture--hopefully with more stable marriages, and kids that aren't screwed up by divorce.

... in response to Its not about America vs The rest of the..., posted by Cold Warrior on Jan 5, 2002

I know the Serenity prayer. I try to live by it. The trouble is the last part about grant me the wisdom to know the difference.

Both sides need to keep very open minds when trying to have an international relationship. Dealing with our own preconceptions about our countries as well as hers is a part of this. We have to learn to look honestly at ourselves and what is around us. Once we do that then we can try to work on our partner's notions. You are very right when you say it is all about willingness and acceptance. We all have our opinions, both positive and negative. And sometimes we need to be able to change those opinions.

But my point is that it is even more difficult if one person forces the superiority issue. Russia is a messed up country. Even Russians will admit that. But I don't think that telling people from there how much better your country is will improve things. The ladies I met wanted an equal partner not a man who felt they were superior.

And the truth is I see many of the same problems here as they have. Their problems are just more advanced.

... in response to Re: I hate America, posted by micha1 on Jan 5, 2002

my point is that if seek love from a foreign land then you must be willing to adjust to a new enviroment wherever your love resides.WILLINGNESS  is the keyword. These problems also occur within  same countries. A Northerner marrying a Southerner for example.