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I have been watching this Board for sometime.
During this period I have noted a preponderance of negative posts about AM/RW relationships. Many I believed until my experience had been otherwise.
I will try to debunk some of the myths.
BTW; I am an ordinary guy, in my mid forties married to a 28 year old Russian/Lithuanian girl; I have given our photo links on this Board before. We will be celebrating the first anniversary of our being together soon. We both are very happy; it is like a new life for both us.

Myth 1. Majority of FSU women who want to marry AM are looking for a visa and a wy out of there country.

I did not find that to be the case; majority of women in FSU are looking for a good husband; not necessarily a way out of EE. I had to convince my wife to come here; she was  not that much interested in moving to USA; and she would gladly move back to Lithuania, if I agreed to live there. She had a good job there and did fairly well.

Myth 2. Most FSU women are scammers.

May be; that was not my experience.

Myth 3: One should not marry  younger women.

This is the biggest myth of all. I was married to an AW who was my age; the marriage did not last; we had troubles from the first day.
I think age difference strengthens the marriage NOT diminishes it; at least that is my experience. A couple gives each other what their strengths are. Young women are a breath of fresh air; without baggages from previous relationships. And an older man can provide for them the way a younger man cannot.

I have given this example before;  arguably the most admired American of all times married a woman 25 years younger than him; had he not married her, you would have never heard of him; you all kow him; his name is Ronald Reagan.

Myth 4: FSU women are lazy.

I don't think so, my wife puts in a hard day; much more than my AW ever did.

Myth 5: FSU women are unfaithful.

May be, I just don't have any indication that she would be; she is more modest than most AW.

Myth 6: She would leave you after two years.

Leave for where? And why would she leave if she is happy? Without going into details, we have addressed that issue in an agreement between us.

Myth 7; The process is time consuming.

It took me all of six months from the first time I first wrote her to the time she was in USA.

Myth 8; The process is expensive.

It cost me all of $2000, including my trip to Lithuania.

Myth 9: RW have no concept of money.

That has not been my experience. She understands very well, what to buy and where to buy; she learned that quickly.

Myth 10; RW require a lot of attention and help.
That is NOT a myth; if one is not willing to put in the effort to help the RW, they should stay away.

Myth 11: There are cultural differences that you would have to overcome.

That  is not a myth; that is absolutely true; there in my opinion lies the greatest problem, and  THE PRIMARY REASON when AM/RW relationships fail. RW are not Americans they never will be. They have little love for American culture. That is an adjustment you will have to make; some can and many would not be able to and that is why relationships breaks down. Case in point; I have never watched football since she arrived here; which she considers a sports for barbarians. I know a lot about Russian culture; something I never knew before.

I have given my experience; I understand that all experiences are not the same.

Mark

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Mark,
In a post below to Bubbagump you refer to a privious trip that you took as a tour with an agency.  Not to beat this $2K expense into the ground, but shouldn't you also include the cost of your privious unsuccessful trip?  I think your point should have been that one can hold down the overall costs to a more reasonable level by -------.

I also think it is a bit premature for you to be debunking a myth that RW will run at 2 years, when you have yet to reach the first aniversary of your wedding.  
KenC

... in response to quick question, posted by KenC on Dec 20, 2001

Ken:

I never went to FSU before on any trip or otherwise. I have to admit my ignorance, until not so long ago, I hardly knew where these countries are located.

You are correct about the future, I don't know; the possiblity that she would want to go back is there; but from what I know about her I don't believe that she would run if she still wants to live in USA; whether she still wants to live here remains unclear.

Mark

... in response to Re: quick question, posted by mdante99 on Dec 20, 2001

Mark,
Sorry for my confusion.  The post was "from" Bubbagump and not "to" him as I thought.

If your wife is anything like Lena, her critisms of America will become less and less as time goes by.  It really does take some time for them to understand America better and appreciate the good things here.  The most difficult topic for them to grasp (in my opinion) is how driven we are by money.  Some of their thoughts are right on, but others on this subject may come directly from the propaganda they grew up with in their homeland.  My thoughts are that after Lena visits Russia after her time here, she will have even more appreciation for America.  We will see.  Best of luck to you.
KenC

... in response to Re: Re: quick question, posted by KenC on Dec 20, 2001

Ken, it's interesting to hear your comments as well as Mark's.  I'm wondering if there are some cultural differences among different regions of the FSU that lead to a greater increase in "negative" comments or perceptions of America.  I met a woman from Riga where Mark's wife is from who was visiting the U.S. last year and noted the same "negative" perceptions.  On the other hand, although my wife loves the Crimea, she rapidly became a flag-waving American.  Even her mother wanted an American flag for Christmas this year.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: quick question, posted by Charles on Dec 20, 2001

Charles,
I don't know where the negative ideas come from.  Maybe big city girls vs. small town/village or economicly comfortable vs. economicly challenged, Russian vs. Ukrainian, blonds vs. brunettes LOL or maybe some do and some don't.
KenC

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Mark:

As you stated, you only spent $2,000 on the process of meeting and brining your wife to USA.  This is your out of pocket cost, not the total cost as you wife paid some of the expenses.  Could you provide an estimate of what your wife spent so that we can get an idea of what the total cost was for the two of you?

... in response to Re: Myths And Realities - out of pocket ..., posted by Richard on Dec 20, 2001

The total cost including our trip to Las Vegas and legal fees easily exceeded three times that amount.

Nonetheless my wife has been employed since the first week she was here.

A very important point to note, at least for some people is that she has been employed in USA for more than six motnths; and as such she can file her own Affidavit of support form 864A in addition to mine for AOS, making her responsible for her ownself financially, in addition to me. This is a technical detail, but a very important one, which you may or may not be intereseted at this time.

Mark

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

just the very very beginning.  Usually.  Afterward,  its a long and winding road with lots more zeros.  Oh!  And don't anybody start beleiving in some "iron clad prenup".  Spend a little time in court and those "ironclads" do many times sink to the bottom.  We got plenty of good hungry shark lawyers who just love to litigate....so you have absolutely no safety net in the prenup,  unless wifey wants to not litigate.  Probably,  you'll settle.  Ain't bulletproof.  If your lawyer is tellin' you that you got a bulletproof prenup....you should be seein' a better lawyer.

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Well,  Mark...the money thing from your experience is somewhat low.  I think.  Maybe you were lucky or something.  But,  it is very unrealistic for others to think they will have the same results.  My trip expenses would be considerably more.  But,  that is my preference since I spent a few crazy years traveling for business and grew very tired from it all.  Now,  I like great accomadations...no $50 a night apartment for me,  thank you.

  Also,  most RW/UW's know virtually nothing about American culture...until they live here a couple years.  They may hear this and hear that...but its 3rd person old wives tales that grow longer and more inaccurate in the telling.  The gossip.  The more intelligent and more educated they are....the more curious they are.  And more balanced of a viewpoint.  And even for those who are here a year or so...they still do not understand American culture.  Its like dumping me for a year in say Tomsk for a year and me thinkin' I really understand Russian culture.  Of course I don't.  Actually,  I have only encountered 1 girl who hated American culture and history.  University grad.  1st,  she drew her conclusions from not ever spending 1 second in America.  2nd,  her history education was so bad as to be laughable.  She was taught (shes 23) that America sat out WWI,  while the valiant Russians singlehandedly fought and defeated the Germans.  Oh! And America also did nothing during WWII,  Americans just made money,  while the brave Russians did all the fighting.  In Vietnam the coward Americans only dropped bombs on the poor civilians there.  And her coup de gras was that now we drop more bombs on innocent civilians in Afghanistan.  Well...the girl has been taught sh!t.  SSSOOOO!  Most intelligent girls do not have that view....they are more curious.  WE are more like a MYTH to them.

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

SO FAR??

Can you believe that someone would actually come out and suggest that a $2000 budget for this endeavor is anything close to realistic? Particularly stating it as "debunking a myth"!!

WmGO - if you see this, how's the deer population down in your neck of the woods this year? Need any thinning?? Rumor has it that deer thinning services can be arranged pretty cheap this year --smile--.

Cheers,

- Dan

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

First trip, about $4500. Second trip, about $4500. Third trip, about $4275. As I re-call on my third trip I ran out of money and had to have some wired to me in St. Petersburg just to get home. Fourth trip, about $4000, 5th, 6th, etc, etc,. In fact most of my two week to 17 day trips were from $4000 to $4500.

The longest trip I ever took was for 31 days and I left with $10,000 cash, returned with $300.

Today my 16 and 17 day trips cost about $2000 but this is due to what I am able to pay for visa's, flats and food and ofcourse it's not so expensive when your not looking for a bride.

PS. Hello WilliamGo, how are you doing old good buddy of mine also!

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I think typical costs are 10K to 20K.  I have not taken the cheapest route. If I get a good wife I think 50K would be worth it.  The expense is not a big issue for me.

... in response to 10K so far, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 19, 2001

I did not start out to scrimp on money; I do fairly well, thank you. I could have spent a lot if I wanted or needed to.
I just don't believe that more money gets you any better results.I was told beforehand that throwing around money attracts the wrong kind of women and it detracts the right kind of women.
I went there, found someone I liked and brought her here; and did not throw around  money... on purpose. Incidently I did not give her any financial information about myself until we were well ahead in the process.

Mark

... in response to MONEY.... MY EXPERIENCE, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

And tours don't get better results.  The Latvian trip wasn't expensive because I only paid a translator for 3 hours the whole time.  Several of those meals cost less than $6 and one of those was for 3 people.

I thinks Jack's agency would be cheaper, but you can save money on a tour by choosing girls that speak english.  That saves the cost of a translator and her dinner.  My translator was screwing me over on that first tour by having me pay more for everything.  

More money buys more chances.  If you go to Russia and the girl's not serious, which happens all the time, you've just blown 3K to 5K.  I don't think I'll every spend 50K, but if I got a good wife in the process the money would have been well spent.

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

...tell, as I dont track it closely, it's about $20K at this point. That includes everything. Phone, flowers, hotels, gifts, ect, and goes back to the *very* begining two years ago.

Recall that I have a habit of flying them to other countries since I hate the cold and they like the break alot. Also recall I fly for peanuts, so you can imagine how little I care to run up a tab like that. Then again, my flight privledges are offset in costs by flying them to other places.

I'm also sending cash on a regular basis to a few I've known for a long time who need the help even though I doubt anything will come of it. Yeah, yeah, I know, but it's nothing for me and much for them, so sue me.

Frankly, I don't see it as being too expensive at this point. I planned it in the begining as a two year venture and $40K total. lol...That leaves me another $20K after she gets here for all the other stuff before it goes over. I know it seems alot, but it's all relative and I'm adamant about taking the time to do it right. Heck, I blow 10K a year on the dumbest stuff you can imagine anyway. The da*n airplane alone runs about 20K a year, so FSU chix cost peanuts by comparision.

Hey, I wish I coulda done it for two grand and I could have if I took the short route. In fact, the very first one I met was keeper but she was so young I bailed on her. I'm still somewhat haunted by it today, but we remain in touch even though she married a European guy. Only time I wished I was younger. (lol, well, not the *only* time)

I'll quit when I run outta bucks or I find the right one, neither of which is likely to happen soon as I'm just moseying along these days. I'm not taking it too seriously because I've got a pretty sweet domestic deal now.
Unfortunatley, she's another kid so there'll be nothing longterm coming outta that, even though she seems to want it.

Like I said, it can be done on the cheap if that's the main criteria. Look at some of these guys who do it as cheap as possible by making one trip and picking one of the first ones to come down the pike. Up front, not much, but their "back end" costs are gonna be something when it blows up in their face.

Fankly, like in all things, me thinks ya gets what ya pay for.

... in response to Near as I can...., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

LP, we don't always agree but you make your points in a much more cordial way. Hence I am happy to respond to you.

There are a couple of posts from RW, here, read them, we all can learn something.

I made only one trip; my costs were under $2000; almost one year has passed, we are very happy; who is to say that if I would have spent $10,000 and two years searching I would have done any better. The way I did it, I don't know how I would have spent more than $2,000, and why?

With regard to your statement of you get what you pay for; I beg to differ; LP the next time you take an airplane flight; look to your right and then to your left; both the persons paid a different price; depending upon where they bought the tickets from. You probably know same flight, has dozens of rates, for exactly the same seats. The same goes for the hotel rooms, same room more than a dozen prices depending upon who is paying.

I had some specific requirements, RW understood them well, under those circumstances I would be hard pressed to spend even two thousand dollars.

There is certainly no limit to what you can spend; to each his own.

Mark

... in response to Costs, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

...the entire problem boils down to this:

Your situation was unique. You quickly met one you thought was right and then she helped defray the costs in a big way. Thats not typical, by any measure. So far so good. But while your situation was unusual, and you did specificaly say those were only *your* experiences, you posted them under the guise of debunking "myths".

Myths imply a generalized situation while you admited your's are your own experiences. This does seem to me to be at odds. Me thinks the way you choose to title the post caused the issues to surface. Sticking with generalities, 90% of us are not going to pull off what you did unless it's a "go to a social and pick one" kinda thing. I understand your intent was to give us sage advice but it just didn't come out that way. I know you meant no harm in it.

I understand Dan's point of view also. Maybe he's had a bad day or, more likely, it's some latent issue from a past posting of your's that he takes exception too. I can't speak for him but something clearly has him tweaked.
Yes, you're right about RW. While me thinks she exhibits some typical women's dreamer's behavior, (not all bad to be sure), I'm consistantly surprised at her perceptivness in these issues. She's no dummy, thats for sure.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on spending more time in looking. It just stands to reason that, in such a large pool, there are better fish to be had if one fishes longer. Of course, one can spend all their time and come up short but I feel I can't just be with the first one to strike my fancy. If it's for keeps, and it's supposed to be, why would you make the decision so quickly no matter *who* she is?

Makes no sense, unless you were desperate to get it over with asap, as many are. She may well be the one, but how could you get to know someone in so little time? To me it's not a cost issue, it's a knowing her issue and that takes much time, money and many trips.

lol..I understand your cost comparision, even though I pay the same for every flight and there is no one on my right, only on my left, and he pays the same as me.

It all comes down to how you can marry a woman with so little exposure to her. Six months and one trip is nothing. Then again, there are some real idiots who think they've found true love after a week and no one could make them see the foolishness of this either. These guys try to cover up how desperate they are by saying some really bizzare things to rationalize their poor decision making. The problem is they allow their desperation to overule common sense but you'll never get them to see that. As I've said before, you can't argue with a drunken man and believe me, they'll likely pay for it down the road in a big way. Oh well, when ya pay to learn, ya learn.

I absolutely agree about dealing with girls who speak English and have computer/Internet access, I've tried to stick to this since day one.

So you see, for me at least, it's not really responsible to make newbies, who are most likely desperate and overwhelmed by the agencies and websites, think that this is such easy an venture. The odds are it will be nothing like your experience, and if it is, you'll forgive me for thinking they rushed it. I wish you luck, but if you made one trip, met her once and brought her home in a total of six months, than that isn't so far off from just going to a social and picking out Sveta #22 in blonde.

The risk is simply to great, even if it cost you more, to give the impression to others thats all there is to doing this. Time may be money, but in this game there simply is *no* substitute for time spent with her before making such a command decision. Emails and phone calls help little in determining if she's right for you, only time spent together will do that and to blow that off until *after* she comes is, imho, dangerous indeed.

... in response to Mark, I think...., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

LP: I would tell you something that may have been instrumental in my decision.

My parents hardly met each other until they married; they were happily married for over 50 years until my mother died.

I lived with my ex wife for years before getting married; mine ended in a divorce.

The lessons I learned from my parents was that it is commitment that makes a marriage last... not how well you know the person before marriage.

You know the stats in USA; research has clearly shown that people who profess to " know " each other well, before marrying by living together have a HIGHER divorce rate.

One thing I noticed in the first meeting with my wife; she was committed. Time has proven that my judgment was right.

You can spend the rest of your life looking for a better fish.
Mark

... in response to Near as I can...., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

...made me look a little closer. I was high, it's closer to $16K.

Were you asking only about the FSU?  I think not, I bet you were asking about the costs of finding a mate abroad period, regadless of the country. I included trips to Spain and Greece in the first total as I've never limited it to the FSU.

I'd say FSU costs only are about $13K at this point.

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Hey Dan,

Yes, I have invested a lot more than two grand and agree that it would be an unrealistic "budget". I have invested over six or seven times that amount, although I am able to conduct each subsequent trip cheaper than the one before as a result of learning the ins and outs of the venture. Although everyone is different, and anything is possible in terms of how many trips it will take to meet one's match, I think that ten grand would be a reasonable *minimal* amount to consider for a two year search.

Yes, the deer need thinning. I have a new email address and send you a message.

Rock-n-Roll,

WmGO

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Certainly more then $2000 total, but I haven gotten the trips down to a reasonable $ amount.  My last trip for three weeks ran:

Airline $875
Apartment $270
Train tickets: $60
Bus tickets: $18
Interpreter: $70
Expenses to include laundry, restruants, food, taxis, angecies, yada, yada, yada: $600
One night in Amsterdam: $90
Great time: priceless

Mind you, the whole trip was in Kharkov where prices are cheaper.  If I had stayed in Kiev, you could double to triple the apartment bill, and add about 50% for the restruants and other misc. stuff.  So it's roughly $2000. But this is having a friend there arrange everything and finding a cheap apartment.  My trip in April which lasted 4 weeks and involved Kiev and some socials ran about $3500 total.  My first trip in '98 (two weeks) which was soley arranged through an agency (I didn't know any better) ran over $4000 but the tickets were $1800 of it as it was prime summer and the agency kind of screwed me by saying they could get me tickets cheaper so I waited until the last minute only to get stuck with them for $1800.

But none of this includes the numerous telephone calls, letter translations, yada, yada, yada for all the preparation and stuff prior to and after the trips!

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

First trip: Airfare Wyoming to Moscow $1189.00 (August 2001)
           Airfare Moscow to Anapa  $176.00
           Visa and registration $ 170.00
           Lodging with meals 25 nights $500.00
           Airport Transfers (three) $105.00
           Hotel 3 nights in Moscow $318.00

Second trip (planned for this January/February:
           
           Airfare wyoming to Moscow  $749.00
           Airfare Moscow to Novokuznetsk $295.00
           Visa with registration  $170.00
           Hotel in Moscow 1 night  $65.00
           Airport transfers (three) $105.00 (total)

           Total so far  $6203.00

I did not include any entertainment expenses, meals in restraunts, cab fares, etc. because I did not keep track.  I would gues another 1000.00 during my first trip.

Granted I could have cut expenses by processing my own visa app,  taking the metro between airports, etc.., but I did not live extravagantly.  My lodging in the Anapa area was a small single room with bathroom/shower. There was no TV,air conditioning and the like.  

I did not include cost of lodging in second trip because I do not know for certain what it is going to cost. Probably around 20 - 30 a night is my guess.

I am planning another trip this spring or early fall.  All of these costs will occur before I even begin the k1 process.

 
   

... in response to Re: LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto ..., posted by Philb on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I din't keep real close track, but airfare from Hawaii, room, interpreter, car & driver and spending $ for 12 days was $2500. Then $ for english lessons, so that she could speak better when she got here, $ to help her family, $ to get her to Warsaw, air tix for her and Katya to Hawaii...
makes it an endeavor that shouldn't be for the budget conscience.
Besides if you plan on giving her a 'better life' you best not be in the position that your counting on her getting a job right away, so that you can make ends meet, or she'll feel like she was better off where she was, as at least she had friends and family there.

... in response to How Much Has It Cost You, posted by Stan B on Dec 19, 2001

Even though *you* were apparently successful with a single trip - do you advocate others to establish this as the norm and expectation??

Admittedly, my particular case is much different in that I have business in Ukraine. I travel there principally for business, and was fortunate to  stumble into finding my wife. In the process, I've met many western guys traveling to Ukraine hopeful of meeting someone. In fact, short of Jack, I've probably actually *met* more of the posters on this board than anyone - some of them in Ukraine. Anyway, my point is to say that I could describe how much I've spent, but it would not be an apples to apples comparison for most on this board.

I do believe, however, that this dating process is not all that much different than dating a gal in the US. Yes, there are cultural issue and geography issues and sometimes language issues - but people still need to get to know one another and there is no substitute for time together. The selection process plus time together once nearing a final decision dictates several trips. Several trips cost far more than $2000, as your example illustrates.

- Dan

... in response to And That Was For A Single Trip  - Wasn't..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

And yes I got very lucky to meet the girl of my dreams on my 1st trip. I could possibly go over 10 more times and never even meet anyone like her, so no I don't think anyone should count on going just once.

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

That's actually what I do for living :)

Anyways, Dan, I don't understand what's a big deal. Mark stated that it was HIS experience. I think everybody here is smart enough to realize that it does not apply to everybody, especially for the process itself.

Heck, somebody posted before that the whole process + 4 year marriage costed the guy $120,000 (I still can not figure out how). But, does it mean it cost you that much?

Regards,

Russian Wife

... in response to cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

I have/will spend well over that in the next four years on my marriage. What is so out of line?

First was finding my fiancee, then the visa process, after that was getting her here and settling things that she was leaving behind. Next will be a wedding, a car, clothes, etc. Later we can start on the dentistry and other health problems.

The bottom line IMHO is if you are pricing a relationship that will bring both of you a lifetime filled with happiness you are defeated before you start.

... in response to Re: $120,000, posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

Rags wrote:

The bottom line IMHO is if you are pricing a relationship that will bring both of you a lifetime filled with happiness you are defeated before you start.

Richard replies:

Agreed.  However, people do need to be aware of the magnitude of the cost involved as well as other things that they might be getting into like dental work.  I read this board for quite a while before I went to Ukraine this year.  I remember reading a $15,000 to $20,000 price tag many times.  It didn't really sink in until I actually started incurring these costs.  

And, YES, I am glad I finally went and would recommend it to anyone.

... in response to cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

RW - What does the title "Myths and Realities" mean to you??

I do not mean this as a rhetorical question. I am sincere. Perhaps it doesn't translate across well, but you are sharp enough to recognize the arrogance implicit in the title. It suggests the author is going to separate those issues that are "myths" from those which are "realities" - and the author counts themselves credible enough to execute on that claim. This arrogance is exacerbated when he goes on to make the claim of "debunking myths."

For a new guy reading this board for the first time - or even one that has been here a while and has not seen Mark's idiotic professions of statistics when he first appeared - and more of his idiocy over on another board, it would be easy to consider him credible on the basis fo the fact he is already married, hence, achieved something that many others are still aspiring towards.

Now, if that same person buys into the idea that a budget of $2000 to pursue this endeavor is reasonable, he may well begin the process of making contacts, writing ladies and even beginning to form bonds with some of them.

The REALLY big deal Number 1. I've been in Ukraine when I've received a call from a guy who contacted me through this board and he was in Kyiv and had run out of money. His flight was not scheduled for some days off, but he had badly underestimated the costs to live in Kyiv based on some crap posted on this board. I recalled having seen the posts he used as his basis, and I didn't challenge them at the time because I didn't have time for it. It caused an enormous amount of tension and fear and inconvenience for several people to resolve this problem

The REALLY big deal Number 2. More than once, I have been introduced and gotten to know some of the ladies in Ukraine that have entered into communications with a guy from another country (not always America) and they had begun to feel 'bonded' to these guys, only to have the rug pulled out from under them when the guy starts to do a little homework and discovers just how much the endeavor is going to really cost them. In a few instances, it has caused more than just a little annoyance, I know one lady that was still feeling pretty heartbroken after several months.

All of this can be simply avoided by factual and representative information being portrayed.

If Mark had offered his commentary - as he so often does on so many different boards - under the heading of "My Experiences" or anything that did not serve to suggest that he HAS THE ANSWERS - then my response would have been mild disagreement or even silence.

Does that explain "the big deal"?

BTW - I also think he is FOS with his comments about all FSU ladies feeling "contempt" toward America and American culture. Sure, there are differences - but I have know a fairly large number of RW (from Ukraine) including women I've dated, their mothers, mothers of my friends and colleagues, etc., etc. - and I've had many discussions on this exact topic. I can count on one hand the number of women that I could describe as feeling anything close to "contempt" toward America. Yes, they will often feel a close link to their native country, and they will often ask questions based pon numerous misinformation including Soviet propaganda - and Melrose Place on television - but it is certainly not contemptuous. However, as this latter subject is a little less black-and-white, I'll allow for some validity in his view. I *do* however, submit that I would have never considered a woman that felt "contempt" toward America a good candidate for marriage and relations TO AMERICA. Adjustments to another country are difficult enough without compounding those with a contemptuous attitude. Just as you have advised people to consider ladies from a higher strata of society and with English skills - wouldn't you agree that men should not seek ladies with "contempt" toward America --smile--??

- Dan

... in response to cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

It is a big deal to make a misrepresentation of the cost.  Now we find out that he only made one trip and the girl paid a lot of the expenses, which is highly unusual.  It is a big deal for two reasons 1) men will think this is a relatively inexpensive process and will start writing women and spending money on that basis and 2) the women who want to meet these men will be disappointed and disillusioned when the men don't visit because they thought Mark's $2,000 figure was realistic.  That is Dan's point, and I think it is a good one.  Had he not challenged him on this, the newbies would think you can do it for $2,000.

... in response to Re: cost savings analysis, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

that the girl can't afford (like Mark's girl did) to pay all her expenses.

... in response to Re: cost savings analysis, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

Well, in this case we should go and slam Rags because he got his INS papers approved in 13 days. That is very misleading because everybody would think they could do their papers so fast.

And so on....

By the way, he actually DID it and seems to be happy. Is he claiming less money than he actually spend? I don't know why would he. Still beats $120,000 number.

And too many guys actually are already writing ladies, fighting with intepreting the correct meaning, sending money to cure sick cat, planning the trips and would never actually make it over there. Who is more misleading?

... in response to Re: Re: cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

This is not a case of someone carefully managing his money or just getting lucky with the first woman he meets.  He made HER pay for the medical examination ($100+), her flight to the U.S., and other expenses even though she was reluctant to come to America.  He also left out some other expenses he incurred, such as legal expense for his iron-clad prenup (or maybe he did that himself or found a free lawyer, now there's an oxymoron).  I've never heard of anyone even suggesting that the woman pay for substantial expense - it's certainly not mainstream - yet he had no problem representing that it was a "myth" that this process was expensive.  That's a lot different than someone advising that his K-1 visa was processed quickly.  The 13-day post about the visa wasn't designed to debunk the "myths" of this process.  Had Mark not been slammed by Dan, new readers would have concluded that the many estimates far in excess of $2,000 were a "myth."  He deserved to be slammed and the length of this thread shows  the fallacy of his position on this point.

... in response to Re: No, He didn't do it.  She did., posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

My first requirement was that the girl must be doing well in her own country, not looking to come to USA at any costs.
It is very likely that such a girl would have her own money and will offer to contribute.

I see nothing wrong in that.

Read RW posts again.

Mark

... in response to Read My Posts Carefully RW Read them You..., posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

... in response to Re: Re: cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

I can take it. (Nothing seems to bother me lately :)

I only stated what happened in my case and I believe that I included each time that I posted that I filed with the CSC which is considerably quicker.

Newbies take heed, READ THE ARCHIVES on subjects that you are interested in and don't take any one persons word that things will work for you as they did for someone else.

... in response to Re: SLAM ME Baby!  :), posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

I think you and RW have stated very clearly.
Mark

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Dan,
Easy, buddy, you're gonna blow a gasket!!  Mark has a "style" about his writing that used to get under my skin also.  The "$2,000" cost estimate is waaaaaay off and we all know it.  I spent much more than that on phone calls to Lena!!  LOL  My cost per trip was more than 2 grand.  When I went I didn't have all the great info on flat rentals that can now be found here, so I paid more for hotels.  Even without housing I would consider $2,000 cheap for A trip ($1k airfare & $1k spending money).  Although I was hard pressed to spend $500/week in Tver, Moscow more than made up the diff.  LOL.  

As for the negetivity towards American culture and society in general, I would have to agree more with Mark than you.  The Russians & Ukrainians I have met here have more than a few negetive statements about that.  I have seen Lena's own negetivity towards American culture become less and less over time.  I think it is only human nature to poke fun of something that is different from what your norm is.  Over time the good things become more apparent and the "odd" things become more acceptable.  Have a great holiday!
KenC

... in response to Dan, Dan, Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

With Mark, it is more than just a stylistic issue. Is is his blatant arrogance.

Yes, I agree there is more validity to his comment about negativity. However, consider your choice of words as contrasted to his. He used the terms "contempt" and "disdain" and "detests". Strong words, indeed, and vastly differnet than a simple occasional negativism.

My Olya - much as your Lena - really feels a strong bond to her native country. We own an apartment there and will likely spend substantial time over the years in Ukraine. It is entirely possible we will live there for some periods.

However, this is a love of homeland and vastly different than a contemptuous attitude toward the new country. One really needs to examine the wisdom of bringing a woman to America if she feels a contemptuous attitude toward America. Adjustment is difficult enough without that additional issue to struggle with. Actually, in my case, adjustment has been an absolute breeze - so maybe I could have dealt with it --smile--. But I wouldn't have wanted it anyway.

Cheers to you and Lena too!

- Dan

... in response to Hi Ken . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Dan,
Mark's arrogant attitude used to get my goat when he was telling everyone how to marry a RW BEFORE he was married.  This is a little different.  Now he has actually married a RW and is relaying HIS experience.  I understand that his $2k number is whack and you are doing the newbies a favor by clarifying the true costs.  I remember jumping on WSBill about spouting his FSU travel knowledge BEFORE he even went.  There are a lot more harmful and misleading posts here from Yahoos that don't have a clue (or a woman) on how to find, romance and marry a RW.  I personally cringe when I hear guys justifying the excessive money they sent to save some RW's babushka, mum, aunt, sister or child (pick one). Mark IS married to a RW and his input is valid even if it is misleading at times.  I took a very different route than most here and I "broke" a TON of rules.  Yet, I consider my relationship with my wife to be a great success.  The difference is that I do not advocate that the actions I took will work for everyone.  We have far too few "experienced" poster here as it is.
KenC

... in response to Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

... in response to Dan, Dan, Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

Ken, I know you know the $2,000 figure is wrong, but for those who are not as experienced as you reading this "Myth and Reality" post would come to a different conclusion had Dan not jumped on his horse.  Dan's persistence in requiring Mark to explain where the $2,000 figure comes from as well as the tide of more realistic estimates, including yours, provided a valuable service to the users of this board in their evaluation of seeking a RW.

... in response to Re: Dan, Dan, Dan, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Do I count my "learning curve" in Moscow or can I just start after I hooked up with Jack?

... in response to Re: LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto ..., posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

Actually, the actual amount isn't terribly important - just whether or not you see it as a responsible act to be promoting $2000 as a reasonable budget for people considering this endeavor?

Cheers Rags,

- Dan

... in response to No, No, No - Let's Be Honest --smile--, posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I agree that $2000 seems a bit unrealistic and I would hope that nobody would use that as a guideline as to what their costs would be. Heck, that wouldn't even cover my airfare and lodging for two weeks. Some people can go a long way on a buck but I think $2000 is stretching it a little.

I would estimate (NOT including my "schooling" in Moscow) my expenditures to be in the neighborhood of $10,000 and I got lucky and found my dream bride on my first trip. That includes six weeks in Ukraine on three different trips, the visa process, and airfare for V and her daughter to get here.

Finding a woman well beyond your wildest dreams...priceless.

... in response to Re: No, No, No - Let's Be Honest --smile..., posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

Of course I had to buy some other non-essentials that I wanted to have on the trip just in case.  I should think that a reasonable amount would average in the neighborhood of  $4,000 - $5,000 for a two week stay but that is livin' kind of large while there but you know that I saved all year for a one month stint overseas so I wanted to have one hell of a time and not be limited in funds in any way.  I imagine that most men could go over for less than that but I always allow for a buffer for expenses I might not plan on.

Jim

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

....and I agree with most of your input although I do lack your RW marriage experience.  There are different types of girls there,  just as here.  And different men will have a different experience depending on their criteria and preferences.  And which head they are thinking with.  $2000 was your experience and I just gotta congratulate you on that.  Many will spend more,  no doubt,  but I think you did your homework and maybe you were a little lucky too.  Oh!  I also do agree with your criteria too.  A girl who can read and write in fairly fluent English and is quite intelligent and is doing fairly well in FSU....would,  I think stand a far better chance of doing well here and fairly quickly.  Because she already has the tools in her toolbox to make many adjustments.  Tim

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

I don't watch American Football either - I don't get it :) But I like barbeques, Christmas holidays, politeness of people - I can go on and on. There are good things about American culture too :)

On the other note - and considering all the comments, even before you started to write all the myths, you should have put a disclaimer: "married to RW who spoke a very good English before we met, had a good career in her country, etc, etc"

She could speak English - you did not have to pay money for intepreter. Plus, could actually learn more about HER instead of trying to read between the lines or using electronic translator.

She had a good job and career - she wants to work in USA, you don't have to babysit her and I am sure she is enjoying all the support you are giving her with business. It only strengthens the relationship instead of opposite.

That's why all the myths come to be not true. You chose high standards and you went for it. Unfortunately, not many men want to do it. I don't know why - whether they are afraid to reveal more about themselves, don't want to find a "real" partner or just "blind"? From my little experience of "matchmaking" - there are much higher percentage of men just buying addresses of young pretty girls who don't speak any English rather than going with introduction to ladies who do speak English, have good education, careers and would not settle down for one-week "deal". I am trying to convey advantages of communicating with ladies who speak the language, have computer access, can travel, but it's all in vain. I still don't know why.

Go figure...

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Myths And Realities, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

Very perceptive clear headed post that brings greater perspective to all of this.

... in response to Re: Myths And Realities, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

You are absolutely right RW; I never bought any addresses from anybody; I only communicated with women who had a working knowledge of English and access to their own computers.

I brought my wife here with a very specific promise, that I would make her a successful business woman in America. I help her every day and that strengthens our relationship. She goes around town on her own. She started working almost from the very first week she was here.

Mark

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Mark,

I used to be a regular poster on this board up untill about a year ago -- now I only come to visit periodically, hence it's rare that I'll post something now. But here I feel I must, regarding the age thing. Though it's been discussed over and over again at this board, no one ever seems to get really sick of it so I'll put in my two cents:

20+ years age difference may seem somewhat trivial now when you're say 50 and she's 25, but you have to be thinking in terms of the long haul: What's going to happen when you're 75 and she's 50? She'll be ready to travel and conquer the world and you'll be just about ready for the old folks home. And if you're sick and in failing health as you may very likely be at that age, the last thing she's going to want is to stay at home taking care you when she could be off on a cruise to the Carribean!

I'm not trying to be faceitous, It's just something you should think about!

See y'all in 2002!(maybe)

Niall

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

but I feel that you were being honest and speaking fromt the heart. And yes you did use a disclaimer-your experience. In reality everything that is said by anyone, at best, is their experience. With the exception of the true freaks who give advice with no experience at all-they usually give the most advice. :)
my experience
cost 20k +
wife does not care for America-did not relay message to INS
does not want to go back and live in FSU but would like Europe
did she just want a way out? yes-out of her situation.
do we just want a way ou? yes it is just a matter of circumstance.By the way how many of you would go to Austrailia and live if you got a good job with good pay and a free ticket-I thought so.
So what is wrong with a woman wanting a good husband, a good life, and a free ticket-what is your desire?
By the way-Never has an AW cooked bread for me, ironed my shirts, taken care of me the way my wife has.
Will she leave? I have no idea.
Do we get along? most of the time.

lets put it another way. how many times in your life have you searched for something only to come back to the first thing you found? and last how many times have you looked back and thought, I should have? How many wish you would have bout Yahoo stock and dumped it?
anyway all frivolities aside. everyone I know who has gotten married or is in 'LOVE' and have questioned my expediency, all said they were sure fo their mate from the first moment. I ask why they waited. they gave no response.The only reason we wait is to look for something better. Just hope that you do not get worse!Because they are also wanting the best bang for their buck-I will call it emotional symantics
Joe

... in response to even though I have not always agreed wit..., posted by yoe on Dec 19, 2001

Joe: yes you and I have not always agreed, but I appreciate your comments.

In my case it took me less than six months from the time I wrote her and the time she came to USA; including my one trip to Lithuania. I found her on the internet, with her own computer and therefore so small a cost.

I am the first one to admit that one year does not mean much for a successful marriage, even though the first year is very telling year for any relationship. But as I have said here, it has been a very happy year, and even if ended tomorrow, I would have been better for it.

Like you said, will it last? I have no idea.

Like your wife, my wife prefers her own country and culture; and I don't blame her, I try to make her as comfortable as possible.

Can anyone else do the same?

I don't see why not. I do not have some kind of extra ordinary talents.

Mark

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Thanks Mark,

I was getting bored.

The thing that is interesting to me is that everyone's experiences, and therefore opinions, vary so radically.

I guess that's just natural. We all come from such varying backgrounds... we're different ages... we have had different experiences with women in general -- now add a "country" the size of the FSU, and all of the varying cultures, etc there... We're bound to disagree...

It's like the old story of the four blind men who were trying to describe an elephant by the part of it they could feel.

Let me pick one thought, though...

Worst case scenario

I always look at worst case scenarios in major life events. So, what's the worst case scenario here? (I mean... really, what's the worst case... Discounting everything the agencies say in their marketing, and everything the trolls make up in their fictional "I've been scammed" stories...) What is the worst thing that can happen?

Seems like worst case scenario is you have a bad marriage that ends in two years. (I live in Texas, Land of the Free, and Land of no Alimony... so that's the end of it for me)

Hopefully, with a little bit of discenrment, you wouldn't have two full years of misery. Hopefully, you and your wife have at least enough in common, and enough maturity, that over the two years, you have some good times, some bad, and in the end, decide that the bad outweighs the good.

Shucks, guys, that's not so bad, is it?

I guess it's because I've been married and divorced twice (to AW) that I have a new feeling about all of this. I used to believe in love that lasted forever... but to still believe in that would mean discarding my life experience.

My second wife and I were in Love. We had a three year marriage that was a lot of fun. The divorce was painful -- for both of us -- because we realized that even though we enjoyed each other, our famiies (children) weren't "blending."

I can see a very similar thing happening with an RW. Maybe things are great, but in the end the sacrifice of her leaving her home and family is just too much. Would that be painful? Yes... Understandable? Yes? Anything you can do to avoid that? No... The cultural difference will always lurk out there. (Which is what I think Mark was saying... I think he was saying: "Look everyone worries about the age difference and the scammers -- that's not the problem...) It is the cultural difference that will probably get you.

Does that "suck putty balls?" Yep.

But since when was life perfect? And if life is imperfect, how can we expect Love to be perfect? Isn't Love just part of Life?

So, I guess I have lower expectations. People tell me that if I marry a woman fifteen years my junior that she will leave me when I'm sixty.

I say... "Just when I'm sixty? Hey, great! That's twenty years of happiness... I'll take it. Hell, I'll take ten -- having never seen a ten year wedding anniversary... that would be pretty all right with me."

Don't get me wrong... I'd love a "Happily Ever After" kind of love. Somewhere, deep inside of me, there is this romantic who still sorta believes in it...

But if I get a ten year marriage to a smart, beautiful, and caring woman... that would really make it all worth it.

I'll worry about 60 when I am 60...

... in response to Nothing like a good Myth Discussion, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 19, 2001

Why did I leave.  What was I thinking.  I'm telling all my friends.  Texas is the promised land.  Move that b1+ch to Texas and divorce her.  I should read up on these divorce laws.

... in response to Nothing like a good Myth Discussion, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 19, 2001

http://www.planet-love.com/wwwboard/show.php?asian/archive00052/messages/19227.txt

-- Jeff S.

... in response to Yup!, posted by Jeff S on Dec 19, 2001

Your experience should be worth reading for all.

Mark

... in response to Nothing like a good Myth Discussion, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 19, 2001

Mark,
Another good post!  Reaching a 10 year (or in my case a 20 year) milestone in a marriage is way over rated!  Other than my children,whom I will charish for a lifetime, I would gladly trade the 20+ years of marriage to my first AW for the last 3 years with Lena.  Maybe it takes a mature man to understand that the quality of life is a most precious commodity.  My life with Lena is making up for many many lean years I wasted in my youth.  LOL.  Take care.
KenC

... in response to Nothing like a good Myth Discussion, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 19, 2001

You are absolutely right Mark in Texas.

What is the worst case that can happen?

That she decides that marriage was not a good idea. We have already spent almost one year together; the happiest year of my life. Even if it all ended tomorrow I would have been better for it.

For me there has been very little finanical costs from the get go.

I am NOT a vindictive guy; if she wanted to go back, I would help her regain her previous life. There is no point in bearing grudges. We both recognize that cross cultural marriages are not easy and have agreed to part amicably if it does not work out.

Where is the rub? At least I don't see it.

Mark

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Myth no. 9, did gave me a good laugh.   Women, money and shopping. ohlala.

Everyone knows about the bell shape curve, right.
Well in North America, in our century, this is how it goes.
15% of the marriage will go on very well, forever.
15% of the marriage will go wrong, right from the word go.
For the 70% left of the marriage.  This is how it will go.  From the first day to two years, she will be listening to
you.  From two to five years, you will be listening to her.
From five to seven years, the neighbors will be listening.
From the seventh year on the lawyer will be listening to the both of you.
Then the judges will be listening.
It is only a fact of life, a reality, it is the hardest thing in the world to have two of the finest machine made, work
together in harmony.
I can only repeat, what I have said many time before, here and everywhere,  when you are wrong admit it,
when she is wrong keep your mouth shut

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

Wife 20 years your junior.

Is that your message Mark?!?

Hardly responsible advice ace.

- Dan

... in response to So - For a Mere $2000 and 6 Months Inves..., posted by Dan on Dec 18, 2001

I am impressed as to how he did this.  The visas and AOS alone cost $500.  I guess he chinched on the ring as well!  I think you should plan on spending more.  It is very premature to judge a marriage a success after knowing someone for only a year, but it's nice that they're happy at this point.

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

$2000!  Sounds like you got a great deal on the Russian antique road show.  I'm at $10K and counting.  

Handling money should be no problem.  Tell her to add 1 or 2 extra zeros to everything.  

RW's comment on her friend's success rate was comforting and so are the experiences of guys on this board.  I assume none of them are in a trailer park.  

Most scammers are not good at it and nothing to worry about if you have some common sense.

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

especially the last part and anybody with a RW/UW wife knows exactly what you are talking about. I'll be in touch with you for a 2 tickets from the east coast to Kiev for late April. Let me know of any deals:)
regards!

... in response to Myths And Realities, posted by mdante99 on Dec 18, 2001

well said mark I should have all my freinds read this bcause they think I am crazy and that my girl is just trying to get here. I know different Rcik

... in response to Re: Myths And Realities, posted by snowwego on Dec 18, 2001

...other's experiences are different. Unlike Mark, I *firmly* believe the vast majority of these women's priority is a visa. I have little choice but to believe this because so many have confessed that to me after the ball was no longer in play. Yes, they want a good man but they have all told me the priority is to *get* here first and if it doesn't work out they may have other options. Options that are non existent as long as they stay there and they are willing and able to assume the hassle in the new country should it not. After all, it's way better than what most of them left behind.

They ain't stupid, these chix. For me, to say the visa is not the first priority for most (not all, but most) is bordering on humorous. I long ago simply accepted this, knowing it's the largest part of the equation for most. Better than to bury your head in the sand about it, at least she and you will be clear on that point. I really don't see a problem with it as long as you're aware. Besides, it's simply one less game to play with her and certainly doesn't mean you can't also be in love.

Expensive? No, one can do it on the cheap. Go over on a social, pick a girl and bring her back. Would you boast about doing that? Considering whats involved, six months seems not so distant from it, at least to me. Whats that you say? Why waste more time when you just "know" she's "the one"? Hmmm...I shouldn't have to explain the problem with that logic, nor could I to someone who is blinded by that situation.

So you just *know* your girl is not trying for a visa? How could you possibly know for sure? Ya, I know, it only happens to other guys, right? Never would *my* sweetie stick it to me, it's not possible. Me thinks maybe you be a tad blinded by her light.

Younger women? No thanx, I've had nothing but younger women for 15 years and they are hands down no good for the longterm. As always, people talk  about the present, no one wants to think about the future ramifications of marrying a young one. It's living on borrowed time, sacrificing the longterm future for the sake of the short term present. Your day will likely come, sure as the clock ticks. I'll admit, they sure are fun for awhile though.

I also don't believe the majority are scammers, if you mean they are workin you for some cash. Have to define scammers, they *all* are scammers in some ways, as are the rest of us. lol..Personally, me thinks they are all evil, they simply chose not to be evil on certain days.

Other experiences? They *are* unfaithful, especially with their own kind. Best keep them well away from FSU guys after they come, I have close experience with this. They can also be the best liars known to man, they know how to work a man who's in control and self confident. Imagine how well lost souls (imho, the majority of men involved in this), can be manipulated. Look at the translated letter in the post below. Nuff said...

I agree with Mark on most other things, except that success is not measured in a year. Every one who marries today swears it'll last. Every guy here who married an A/W probally swore together with her it would last on that day also. Nuff said there also.

Mark seems to have gotten a "good one" but then again, how would he know for sure? I've known some who were better at deception than that, one who planned the entire thing from day one. She was successful too, and left alot of carnage in her tracks.

Dont't get me wrong, they aren't all bad. Like Mark, I could go on and on about the good traits they have but good seldom hurts anybody. Better focus on the bad because that's what'll do you in, and there's *lots* of bad about those there, trying to get here. The odds of duplicating Mark's "success" at this point pretty good for most of us, lets talk about 5 years down the road.

lol..Course, those are only my experiences, your's may be different. However, simply considering the odds is all it takes to see a bit more clearly. If I were you, I'd be afraid, and for good reason. Don't let a pretty face or some coy words push that fear aside or you'll be circling the drain even sooner than you thought it possible. There really *is* one born every minute, and to think you could never be one of 'em is just plain loco.

... in response to Like the man said...., posted by LP on Dec 18, 2001

I think that there is no doubt that the "Visa" is part of the package.

I also think that the better off a woman in the FSU is, the less the Visa matters.

However, I want to add this point...

One thing I have learned through my marriage(s) here in the US is that the "package" is always what you are judged on.

My ex told me that she loved being my wife... but she didn't want to be my daughter's mother. Those are harsh, and yet truthful, words.

She loved me, she said. But not my daughter.

Here's the problem: My daghter is a part of me. You cannot really love me without loving my daughter. So did she love me? The point is that you have to love "the package". Life does not permit us to order ala carte... you have to order the whole blue plate special.

OK... so, whether we want to admit it or not, the Visa is part of the package. Part of what makes me appealing is that I live in America, and make what is perceived to be a lot of money, etc.

I don't see that as a bad thing. I'm not misreprsenting my life. If she looks at the life and thinks: "It would be great to be a part of that" then I say, great, finally I have the package working for me, rather than against me.

So, I don't think the Visa is a bad thing. I consider it one of my "Good Qualities". My age, perhaps, is a bad one. Or whatever. The point is that in the end, for all of the talk of pixie dust and magic, it has been my experience that Love and Marriage is transactional:

Does it meet your needs: Physically, emotionally, and spiritually?

The more it does... the happier you are, and the more time you spend "talking with the angels."

The more it doesn't... the more you'll be likely to be talking to the lawyers...

IMHO

... in response to The Visa Thing, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 19, 2001


.. "Life does not permit us to order ala carte... you have to order the whole blue plate special"

-- Jeff S.

... in response to Like the man said...., posted by LP on Dec 18, 2001

LP,
Good post.  I also like the one below about the foiled windows too!  LOL.  Some thoughts and questions for you:

Visas being the priority- I agree that this may be the truth for most RW involved with agencies, but not all.  Don't you think there is a direct relationship between the amount of desperation of the woman's life and her "need" for a visa?  Mark's wife, as did mine, had a good standard of living back home, so their "need" for a "better life" was much less important than most RW.  I have always maintained that "desperate people do desperate things."  I don't feel that this is an exception to that rule.  I can only imagine how tempting ANY AM might be to a RW trying to live on $200/month.  Now if you factor a child into this situation, the "desperation factor" could go off the charts.  Maybe the better the standard of living, the less tempting the visa?  Hmmmm.

On Scammers- Pretty obvious for any man that has a fair amount of experience with women in general.  No scammer could ever compare with an AW.

On "lost souls"- (Great reference BTW)  This is where this "process" really gets screwed up.  You take a desperate AM and match him up with a desperate RW and who knows what will happen?  The man is desperate for a woman's attention, emotional support and sex and the woman is desperate for financial support and stability.  This type of match is a total crap shoot at best.

On "success" at 6 months-  I agree with you that it is way too early to declare a marriage a success at that point.  The first year of marriage is usually a very difficult adjustment time, and even more so in the case of a RW married to an AM.  It sure is nice to hear positives coming from Mark while he is in the midst of these "adjustments".  My wife and I will be sharing our third Christmas together and we have to be getting past the age of your oldest pair of underwear.  LOL  Take care and have a great holiday season.
KenC

... in response to Re: Like the man said...., posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

...Sometimes when I later read my stuff, I think "Man, this guy is a jerk"...lol. My posts have a sharper edge than what I really feel because I'm not very good at expressing myself.

I will say that most of my experience is with Ukrainians, and that most of them turned out to be the "lower class" (for lack of a better word). Low paying or no jobs, economicly challeneged, ect. I'm sure this has skewed my opinions.

I don't feel there is really anything wrong with that. I can't blame them for wanting out if life is tough. I mean, who doesn't want a better life? Just because they want out doesn't mean they can't be in love with you for being a good guy. This entire visa/money/love thing doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, it isn't neccesarily one or the other. Guys only needs to weed out the ones where it is, thats the real trick, and accept the rest as simply reality.

I neglected to mention I know several, including a few Russians, who are not very desperate to leave at all. You're right, it seems to be associated to how bad they have it at home. My long relationship with a Russian doctor is a good example, she's not nearly as desperate as some Ukie's I know and her focus seems to be the appeal we have as husbands vrs whats availible to her at home. She really is a sweetheart, I must be loco to let her go but thats another story.

I'll also say I've met a few who are pure gold as people, but they are in the minority. Again, the doc comes to mind. The point is, if they were all so rotten to the core I would've moved on long ago. It's these few that keep me interested. It's the old diamonds in the coal mine, the old needle in the haystack thing that keeps me going.

I'd also like to say that being a lost soul is not meant to be a slam, we all have to deal with it at times. I've been there myself and although I'm happy now, it taught me some very valuable lessons. As long as it doesn't screw up one's thinking *too* much, it's a normal reaction to stress.

As for the common thinking of "I'll be happy with 10 years with a younger woman and worry about 60 when I'm 60" logic, my problem with that comes from the three multi-year relationships I've had with younger women. After you've been through those failures and all the stress they cause, it makes you look at it a different way. (No wonder I'm a tad cynical, eh?)

I think many guys here don't really understand how bad it can be, they haven't been smacked around enough by multiple attempts at a large age difference. Again, my experiences at work and I doubt a youngster from another culture will make any difference. In fact, it'll probally make it worse. The bottom line is that I want a woman to be the last one, not the next one, I've had enough of the games the young one's eventually all play.

Three years, eh? Good for you. Hmmm...It's getting to where I'm gonna have to move you into another catagory, the cutting of slack one. lol....Not many make it there.

Btw, in my line off work the underware seldom makes it past a few weeks. :-)  

Happy holidays to you both....

... in response to Err...thanx....., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

did the ghost of FSU past, present and furture come to visit. Hey dude why don't you come anmd visit for the holidays. But do not come to Lafayette or you will be a 100 miles off track-I am glad to see you have relaxed and enjoying yourself much more. Merry Christmas dude. I guess I must find another whipping post.
Your buddy
Joe

... in response to what happend to you man........, posted by yoe on Dec 19, 2001

.....are ya babblin about now yoey? Nothing "happened" to me, I'm the same guy I've always been. lol..Unfortunately, so are you. :-)

Just as relaxed and enjoying myself as before. If anythng is different, it's not something I'm aware of. (Besides, if I was "different" and it ever got around, I'd deny everything.

Be my guest and continue to whip away, you be an novice at it anyway. (Ya just ain't got it in ya soul like I do. lol...don't feel bad you're lacking in that area, it's a good thing.)

Sorry, it has to be Lafayette. I don't get to say where the bus goes, I just drive it. I'll make it out that way soon, and leave the 100 miles to me. I'm pretty sure I know where to find ya. lol...It'll be you and me, in a dusty street at high noon.

Merry Christmas sport. :-)

... in response to Like the man said...., posted by LP on Dec 18, 2001

I would like to elaborate on the last part; it will be more obvious to those who are already married to RW.

There are some major cultural differences between AM and RW; more importantly RW have a contempt for American culture. The flag waving American simply nauseates them. I did not mean to imply that marrying a RW is a piece of cake. Most of the AM will be unable to accept such disdain for America and American culture. Most of these women were raised in Soviet times, when USA was the enemy.
I agree with LP that true test lies when a couple has passed at least five years; but as I have said the first year is usually very telling, if you have a good relationship then, the chances are good.

The point I have tried to make that it is a tough road ahead but not for the same reasons that most people think about like age, desire for visa etc.

Living with someone takes compromises, and it takes special compromises when she detests your culture; age is an irrelevant factor at that point.

Mark

... in response to Some Elaborations, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

You're talking out of your ass buddy.

I know dozens - maybe hundreds - of RW (from Ukraine) relatively well. Except for 2 of them - in their late 40's, I can think of none that express "disdain for America and American culture" or "detests" our culture. Sure, many of them will express an opinion - and sure, sometimes that opinion has been formed by the propaganda of the Soviet system - but it is miles away from deteestation! Mostly, it is a healthy curiousity and wanting to be sure some of the problems of their society do not cary over to America.

My experiences with RW sure are vastly different than yours are.

- Dan

... in response to Horse Manure, Mark . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I agree with you, Dan.  Those women, and there are some, who disdain America usually don't stay long and few of them will even go through the K-1 process.  My wife loves the Crimea just like Mark's wife apparently liked living in Riga, but after she came to America she was very happy.  When she returned to Crimea to care for her mother after a stroke she couldn't wait to get back.

... in response to Horse Manure, Mark . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I stated from the get go, that I only describe my own experiences, knowing my wife, and other EE persons living in the area. Someone else may have different experiences. I don't pass judgments ; I describe them as I see them.

Mark

... in response to My experiences, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

I must agree with Dan that despite your "experiences" the $2,000 figure is disinformation.  The visa/AOS process alone costs $500 in INS fees, and I bet you didn't include the cost of the lawyer to draft your iron-clad prenup you have boasted about on several occasions.  If you're going to give the cost of this process, be realistic and, if you had the exceptionally frugal investment that you claim in finding your wife, explain what your expenses are so someone evaluating a trip to the FSU can make an informed judgment whether to pursue the process.  To do otherwise is not fair to the men evaluating such a trip or the women who are waiting for them to visit.  I thought I was cheap in that it cost me $5,000, including using frequent flyer points.  That doesn't include costs that you should incur if you marry an AW, such as ring, wedding, etc.

... in response to Re: My experiences, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

I found my wife through Absolute agency; cost about $100.

I took a trip to Lithuania for two weeks; cost about $1500.

Additional costs for K-1 visa.

My wife paid for her ticket to USA, and for the physical exam in Warsaw. She was well off, if she did not have the money I would have paid.
She  started working from the very first week she was here and contributed towards the balance of the expenses.

I have repeatedly said that every one follows a different course; mine may not be the best, or even advisable, but you should take for whatever you can learn from it.

It has worked for me and my wife, we are happy with it.

Mark

... in response to Costs, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

Allow me to remind you - and, of course, anyone else that may be reading this - as to EXACTLY what you said, as follows:

Opened with "I will try to debunk some of the myths."

Then:

"Myth 8; The process is expensive.

It cost me all of $2000, including my trip to Lithuania."

All under the heading of "Myths and Realities"

So - is it really such a leap to interpret Marks's meaning to be:

"This process is NOT expensive. It only cost me $2000."

He also states, in another post, that he believes anyone can do it for this figure.

THIS IS *DANGEROUS* MISINFORMATION. It is based on a data point of ONE. And it can lead both the men that believe it - and the women they contact - down a painful and unnecessary path!

I am now coming around to believing he is promoting misinformation for one very self-serving purpose.

If Mark were truly posting according to this comment: "I have repeatedly said that every one follows a different course; mine may not be the best, or even advisable, but you should take for whatever you can learn from it," - then we would never have seen a post arrogantly entitled "Myths and Realities" and the assertion of "debunking myths." Plain and simple.

Are you really unable to discern the difference Mark - or are you just funnin' us??

- Dan

... in response to No - That Was NOT What You Said Mark . ...., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Dan; I don't know how to get through to your skull; I don't want to get involved in a shouting match with you.

You have only one agenda, to tackle people so that it makes you look big.
That comes from insecurities as a child, you probably never kenw your father, or your mother... they did not have much time for you.

This is a public board; so unfortunately an ideal medium for displaying your own shortcomings.

I have watched you in the past doing the same thing with others.
But I have no desire to respond to you.

You disagree with me? Fine, start your own experiences on a separate thread.
Why I have singled you out as a bully? Just think about it.
Most people on this Board knoe how to express their disagreements.

LP disagrees with me more so than you do, but you don't see me asking him to get lost. I am glad to respond to him.

You are disrupting the rest us.

Mark

... in response to You Don't Know How To Read English, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

Hi Mark,

Most would say that my English skills are just fine - thank you. I *do* on occasion have a typed word I misspell. I attribute that to a lack of attention and unwillingness to worry about it for *some* audiences.

As for the disruptions - yes, I suppose you would see it that way. So long as you are arrogant and simple-minded, you will probably ALWAYS see it that way.

I don't care Mark.

I see your misinformation as vastly MORE disruptive. In fact, it was a guy sort of like you that spewed some drivel on the board a few months back and it caused me a whole lot more inconvenience than a little disruption.

Live with it Mark. It ain't goin' away!

- Dan

... in response to My experiences, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

You claim in your initial post you are "debunking myths" - under the heading of "Myths and Realities." Then you go on to state in your next response to me - without qualification - that FSU women feel "contempt" and "disdain" toward America and her culture.

You are blowing bad advice out your ass Mark, and other readers need to know about it.

First - to suggest that someone has a reasonable chance of finding a life-partner in 6 months time and for an expenditure of $2000 is just out-and-out wrong - and it is irresponsible of you to be putting it out to the board as "debunking a myth."

Is it responsible to suggest that someone can find a life-partner in a single trip?? What are the odds of this happening? Sure, it is possible to make more than one trip on a $2000 budget - but only if you separate the trips by a year - to take advantage of off-peak fares - AND - you live a pretty spartan existence while there. So maybe 2 trips. Do you think people stand a high probability of finding a life-partner by making even 2 trips (separated by more than 8 months)??

I do not. And anyone that seriously thinks through this process will not agree with your silly-assed assertion either.

How much time have you actually spent in the countries of the FSU Mark??? When you make such ludicruous and idiotic blanket statements about contempt and disdain - don't you think you should qualify your comments by advising of your experience (that would be - lack of) level???

Do you really mean to suggest to people that a woman that feels "contempt" and "disdain" towards America would be a good candidate for relocation to America?!?!?

D@mn you write some idiotic drivel at times!

- Dan

... in response to More Horse Manure Mark . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Time and time again I have noted, this Board becomes an attacking field, becoming distasteful to many readers. I don't want any part of it. I don't know who you are nor I care to know. I also don't care to teach you manners that your parents should have taught you.
When you have something to say in a civil manner I would respond; until then I have nothing to say to you.
Fortunately you are the only one on this thread that I need to say that.

Mark

... in response to Lack Of Civility, posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

Make you a deal Mark - you put out some genuinely useful and meaningful information (with a modicum of accuracy), and I will assuredly respond in a most civil manner.

Deal???

- Dan

... in response to Re: Lack Of Quality Information . .., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

I don't want to continue this ad infinitum with you.

I related my experiences, deduct what you want from them; there are several posters who disagreed with me; I welcome disagreements and I am glad to respond.

I just don't care to hear from you again; end of dicussion.

Mark

... in response to Re: Re: Lack Of Quality Information . .., posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

It doesn't surprise me a bit that you would not with to hear from me Mark. I don't support your idiotic arguments - and I truly do not care a twit if you respond back or not. Your response is not my objective.

Let me offer additional perspective (to others Mark) on this subject of "civility" that Mark brought up.

Is it "civil" for someone to be given the advice that they can find a life-partner on a budget of $2000?

If someone is naive enough to believe this is possible - and they initiate the process of contacting people - and maybe they even go so far as to focus on one person - if they later discover that a more realistic sum is much higher that they cannot afford - is it "civil" to be promoting (through misinformation) the ensuing damage to BOTH participants??

Is it "civil" (or accurate - or the least bit responsible) to purport to be "debunking myths" on the strength of a single trip to the FSU?

Is it "civil" to mislead people simply because you were fortunate or intelligent or defied the odds or Providence smiled on you to overcome normal odds - in one singular circumstance?

Why is it that we do not see other, more responsible posters, such as Ken C - who also defied the odds by connecting in a single meeting - presenting this as "debunking myths"?

It is "civil" to accuse an entire population of expressing "contempt" towards America and her culture - is that a civil behavior towards the women of the FSU??? Were it true, that would be one thing - but because it is not . . . . .

There is a HUGE distinction between someone feeling a love of country - and feeling "contempt" (Mark's words) towards their new country.

I feel offended when I read things on the board, such as this thread of garbage from Mark - that I know to be untrue. The initial post had a few good and meaningful points contained it it - but it also had several dangerous and outright WRONG points in it.

I have seen too many people hurt by following misinformation - indeed, some from this very board - to sit idly by and allow it to happen to someone else - so, if my responses appear a bit crusty, it is a result of seeing the damage that may be caused. I have been in Ukraine, on more than one occasion, when I received a call or an e-mail from someone there that had gotten into trouble. I have been introduced to numerous ladies that have suffered through the heartbreak of actions from men that started into this process believing the sort of crap that Mark slews around and later discovering they didn't have the funds or the heart or whatever to continue.

Finally - I wonder if anyone has considered the agenda Mark may have for wanting people to believe his line? I hope it is not true, but as I read this crap and I suspect Mark to be of reasonable intelligence, I cannot help but wonder why a reasonably-intelligent guy would want to spread such misinformation. I have settled on a possible answer - but everyone reading Mark's 'stuff' should at least cast a suspicious eye towards his motives and answer this for themselves.

- Dan

... in response to Fair Enough - For Others, On the Subject..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

gauranteed to land-one way or another? Hey Dan, Ihave busted your and LP knads many times and have been given teh same- You actually can get a wife for $2000 maybe even less if you can get to her to pay-does it happen often-once with Mark :). But it can happen. Can guys like me get a break and find teh one girl with a sense of humor and fire in her crawl that can handle the YOE? it can happen - verdict is still out. I will let you know in 5 years. But hey dude I know you got more class. He!! look at LP he is so soft I want to put him on my pillow and snuggle up with him! :) These new guys need strong objective discourse and guys like you and LP are good for blowing away the smoke-while guys like me and some of the others are the cloud kings. But hey it is Christmas. Be happy and kiss someone you love-even if it is your own ass. :) could not resist.
Peace dude
Joe

... in response to Are you suggesting Dante's inferno airli..., posted by yoe on Dec 19, 2001

Unfortunately, that's not how he explained the $2,000 figure.  Maybe he was extremely lucky and got the girl to put up the money for part of the "investment", but that's not what he says in his post and someone reading it for the first time would think that for $2,000 you can land a supermodel 20 yrs your junior.  To suggest that's likely to occur is a true myth.

... in response to Like the man said...., posted by LP on Dec 18, 2001

You know you're a cynical old fart don't you LP? But for the most part I have to agree with you. The only rebuttal I have for you is that it's better live life and take a chance than to hide in fear. Sure bad things can happen if we venture out of our hiding spots. But bad things can happen even if we spend our whole lives hiding. Seeing some of the world and maybe getting burned beats living the life of a hermit.

But then I think you already know this. If you didn't you wouldn't be here. You just like to ruin other people's fun(lol).

... in response to Re: Like the man said...., posted by Zink on Dec 18, 2001

...to avoid being burned, it get us all on occasion and the more me burned the more cynical me gets. Been a long while since I've been burned and I attribute my, ah, attitude to that. I do agree with you, the trick is not to hide from it but to exercise more caution, mainly because you and I are the only sane ones left. (lol...and I'm not so sure about you. :-)

Remember, for all I say, I'm still involved in this little adventure. I'm only reacting to my experiences and some detailed observatons with what I consider a decent sample.
Just takin it slow while I enjoy what I have at the present, but me thinks my day with one of these females is likely coming. Ya know, there is something about 'em.....

To be truthful, I often wonder why I'm here, but it's not to ruin anyone's fun I assure you. There's always more than one way to look at things and being cautiously suspisious (OK, cynical) has saved my butt more than one time.

lol..Besides, reading this stuff is sometimes better than covering all the windows with aluminum foil and sitting in the glow of a TV in a darkened room cleaning my UZI.

... in response to Yep, there's no way...., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

That I'm sane, then I know you've lost it it. I don't have the experience to give a decent sampling. But here's what I was told.

One woman who immigrated to Canada on her own told me the visa is the first priority. The ladies who were interested in me told me it was love. The young 18-20 year olds that are just friends said they were more or less fooling around. They were just too young to seriously want to get married.
But from what I saw in Russia these women weren't falling over themselves to get out. They were just trying to find the best options. The desperation factor isn't as strong in the ladies I know as what some people have said. I think that many of the ladies are as cynical and calculating as you are.

... in response to Yep, there's no way...., posted by LP on Dec 19, 2001

don't forget you aluminium captains hat!
Happy Hodiays sport. :O)
Joe

... in response to I always knew you had a heart.........., posted by yoe on Dec 19, 2001

.....Happy Holidays also.

lol...I wish I was a captain, they won't allow me to scare people like that. These days it's flying "boxes", as they say in the package delivery biz. Computer parts, people parts, who knows whats back there. It's OK because, unlike the "self loading human cargo", the boxes never complain about delays, the ride, cabin temps, ect, ect. lol..They also don't get shtifaced on board.

Never met a box capable of taking the airplane away from me either. The boxes themselves are nice, it's the danm box cutters ya have to watch out for.

The trip to Purdue was cancelled and will be rescheduled so don't worry, our time is still coming. :-)

... in response to Re: Myths And Realities, posted by snowwego on Dec 18, 2001

Just tell your "friends" (ahem), this:

Don't judge my abilities by your inabilities.