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I've been reading on the differences between Russians and Americans trying to prepare myself for possible issues. Problem is, everything in writting seems to be about Russians. I can't find much on Ukrainian society. My question to those experienced with both is how different are they? It seems to me Ukraine is a little more advanced and it's women are more modern. Any helpful comments?

Troll comments are old news, don't waste your time.

... in response to UK vs. RW (Oh No, Could Be A Troll!!!), posted by coaster881 on Dec 14, 2001

My only frame of reference is between Moscow and Kyiv (men AND women). IMHO the difference is like New York (pre 9/11) for Moscovites and Kansas City for Kyiv. I preferred the later but this is no knock on Moscow where I found many good people (whom I consider to be friends).

Just an observation. Moscovites seemed to me to be more "westernized" to me and thus more like the AW that I was trying to distance myself from.

My sincere apologizes if I have offended anyone with this post. As I have stated, it is only my opinion with an admitted limited exposure (six weeks) in each location.

... in response to UK vs. RW (Oh No, Could Be A Troll!!!), posted by coaster881 on Dec 14, 2001

Not necessarly Coaster, The two are close historically and they share quite many other cultural things ..from culinary..ww2-fighin` hand in hand together against nazis..soviet era economical interdependence..quite many Ukrainians speak russian in big part of Ukraine ( especially East part )..mixed marriages..just to say few.  GPC is higher in Russia than Ukraine..not much of a middle class ( but Russia  is such vast territory..statistics may mislead you  )..Less than 10 %of  middle class..mostly in bigger cities, e.i.Moscow, Kiev ..well, you go to any village in Russia or Ukraine or Belarus they all look the same to me..many of  them are very hospitable..they would share with you whatever they have = food ( part of slavic culture ). Back to your point, there are around 50 million Ukrainians and 3 times that Russians (.. not sure about exact figure )..it seems to me that Ukrainians live kinda in a shadow of "Big Bear Brother" ..politically wise, at least ..as people, they `re pretty close with one another..women are very fashion consiensous in both countries ( again - big cities ..in general )..there is less "Banditism" , mafia typo activities in Ukraine than in Russia..in general you feel safer in Ukraine ( they cleaned up their`s " street  mess " few years ago.. most at least..Woman are modern in both countries ( again big cities )..the point I`d like to make in that matter is, many FSU women would spend their last rubels or gryvnas  on clothes, cosmetics ...to look beautiful, rather than many other things..so , from my past experience doing business  with both countries, dating women in both countries, both are very similar..just my two kopeykas   Johny

... in response to UK vs. RW (Oh No, Could Be A Troll!!!), posted by coaster881 on Dec 14, 2001

First - you should be aware that the majority of residents in Ukraine would consider themselves Russian. This is largely owing to the effects of the Stalin Purges as well as his dekulakization campaign during the collectivization years.

If you look closely at demographics in Ukraine - as evidenced by the voting records, at least - Russian-centric issues continue to win majority share of the votes, hence the reason that Kuchma retains a power base. He carried the heavily ethnic-Russian sections of eastern and central Ukraine - and badly lost the ethnic-Ukrainian west. I suppose the primary reasons for such a strong Russian representation are:

* The industrial and coal-rich Donbas region was intentionally populated with ethnic Russians when Stalin and later communist leaders decided to exploit the energy belt there.
* Crimea, which is an incredibly-beautiful peninsula in southern Ukraine, is still considered by many Russians to be a Russian vasal. Never mind the fact that Kruschev handed it over to Ukraine in the 60's and by then the native Tatar people had all been relocated to central Asia in favor of ethnic Russian residents.
* To a very large extent, Russia has coveted the agricultural and mineral (coal) wealth of Ukraine and has considered Ukraine to be one of mother Russia's core provinces. In fact, even today you can find Ukraine mentioned on the Russian Embassy website as representing one of the 3 colors of the Russian flag!
* Finally, in case people are unaware - the Russian empire that became the Soviet Union had it's start in Kyiv! The first great Slavic empire was formed before the turn of the first millenium and was considered to be the most glorious of empire states. The nobility of the Kyivan Rus escaped the Mongol invasion to the north into what is now Moscow and extended their empirical tendencies once safe from the invading hordes.

So . . . . all this historical perspective to make the point that many in Ukraine will claim their ethnic Russian heritage before their Ukrainian citizenship. I know my wife, Olya does - and so do almost all my friends and colleagues in Ukraine - exceptions being those residents of western Ukraine near Lviv.

I cannot make direct comparisons to ladies from Russia and Ukraine because my direct experience with Russian women is restricted to several that I've met here in America. My Olya tells me, however, that she considers Russian women and Ukrainian women - and Moldovan women and Belarusian women - and nearly all women of ethnic Russian descent - to be largely similar in terms of culture.

It is worth noting, however, that many Russian women may not feel this same sense of 'sorority' with their Ukrainian 'sisters'. Rumor has it that women from Russia - particularly Moscow - seem to have an air of superiority. I know from first-hand experience that there is some of that in Russian men when discussing Ukrainian men.

Caveat - many of these comments are generalizations, which I acknowledge are universally inaccurate. They are offered as context and impressions (mine) only.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

... in response to This Could Take Some Time . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 14, 2001

Good post Dan,

I agree with your analysis, comments and observations. There is really little difference between Russia and Ukraine. Same culture, same lanquage (except for pockets of Ukrainian speakers in the West as you point out), shared history and Slavic blood. As you  point out, Kiev is the "Mother of all Russia Cities."

Regards!

WmGO

... in response to UK vs. RW (Oh No, Could Be A Troll!!!), posted by coaster881 on Dec 14, 2001

...advanced??  More modern??

Yeah, they're more advanced at trying to snag a ticket outta Dodge. I've met many from both countries and while I like the Ukrainian gals more in some ways, I find they are more desperate to find a way, any way, out.

Ukraine is a mess in most places, far worse than Russia in many ways. The girls are different in that they seem a tad
less sophisticated and more devious. Doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're better at hiding their real agenda. Of course, thats only been my experiences based on continuing contacts with many no longer trying to make me cough up a visa. You wouldn't believe the stuff they'll tell you when the ball is no longer in play. lol...Say, maybe you could get lucky and find a doctor.

Was that helpful? Believe me, it should've been.