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Today on Russian TV (NTV channel, probably some of you have it, the programme is called “To be continued…”) they said that from every 10 marriages RW/Foreign men 8 ended in divorce. That means that only 20% of such marriages are successful…

Tootsie

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

I would be very leery in relying on these statistics from NTV without finding out the basis for the data. NTV was taken over by the state because it was repeatedly critical of Putin's continuance of the war in Chechyna and other aspects of the Putin administration.  Russia is clearly concerned about the fact it has a negative population growth and the large number of women seeking to marry foreigners doesn't help that situation.  So why not throw out an unsupported number to discourage the exodus.

I have read with some interest the posts claiming various "statistics" on these marriages.  While far from authoritative and certainly not the last word, the study done for the INS by the professor from the University of Florida - it's posted on this site - is probably much closer to reality than what was allegedly reported on NTV.

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

Well, I think it's time to try to make a conclusion. This reply is to all of you who as replied to my posts. I don't  have much more time to spend on this. It's more important for me to spend time with my wife this Sunday, and it's soon Christmas.

Sometimes it strikes me that some Americans are  very ignorant about the world outside the US. That doesn't go for all of you, but it looks it little strange for a European to see some of you claim that the USA are the most cultivated  country, the one that gives most opportunities and has the highest standard of living.

I referred to a report about the standard of living in different countries. In stead of arguments, the answer was I don't care about nonsense of the UN. They are socialists. Sometimes it's good to have the UN when it suits you, sometimes when you don't like  what they say, you don't pay any attention to them. It was  a report  made according to scientific demands, but of course because you didn't like the conclusions, you name it nonsense.

In case some of you are not aware of it. We on this side of the Atlantic have the same possibilities to decide our own future, to create a business as you. The European Union now offer a   common market that is considerable bigger than in America. We have the same possibilities as you to pay a lot for a private health care if we want that in addition to what  we have. We can travel freely without passports over the whole Western Europe. We are free to settle and work in any country, or to make business in any country.

To you, Johnim. You're right. What is most important that you two make the relationship grow. My point was, however, that I still believe that it will be more difficult for a Russian lady to feel good in America. A lot of you guys thinks that   money is the Alpha and Omega. The problem is that most of you are too busy to have time to  take care of a lady just arrived from Russia. This is also underlined by the fact that in America you  very often will be social isolated. I believe that is an side effect of your continuous hunt for more money. You don't have time for each other any more. Everything and everybody is valued by how much you have or make.

These are some of the arguments why I think a Russian lady should be very careful looking for an American man. She should look to Europe.

Johnny W

... in response to Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

You did not understand what I wrote and took things out of context.  I did not say that that we were the wealthiest country in the world and rating systems developed by the UN are not scientific.  They incorporate the bias of the people that come up with the scoring and those people are from Europe.  I trust what I have seen with my own eyes and what people from Europe tell me.  I know you Europeans love to criticise America, it's your hobby.  It makes you feel superior and helps you forget your envy.  

I asked more than one coworker from England what suprised him most about the US and he said: "I did not realize America was so much wealthier than England".  In just over 250 years look what America has built from a wilderness compared to Europe.  You have beautiful buildings 100s of years old.  We will tear down a stadium not even 30 years old and put up a new one.  When we say we have a house that's 20 meters squared, we are not counting the yard, the garage or the basement.  

Your opportunities in Europe are very limited compared to ours and you will never understand that.  I know wealth isn't everything, but you sound as if you resent people for working hard and becoming successful.  That's so European.  I make no apologies for liking this country over others.  

Spend time with you wife or maybe read a book on Marx.  Relax, until the oil runs out and then somebody younger in your country will work very hard to support your retirement.

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

"You did not understand what I wrote and took things out of context. I did not say that that we were the wealthiest country in the world and rating systems developed by the UN are not scientific. They incorporate the bias of the people that come up with the scoring and those people are from Europe."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you really said the that report from the UN was nonsense without any arguments to support your opinion. How do you know that the result was coloured by the bias of people from Europe?

We can agree about the fact that  we value different   things in our countries/economical systems. Norway (and the rest of Scandinavia) is not at all a socialistic society, even if it may sounds like that for you. But our economical systems is easier for a Russian lady to adapt to and feel comfortable in because we share more of the same  values. Plus our societies are not so founded the principle of the survival of the fittest, it's easier to survive here.

"I trust what I have seen with my own eyes and what people from Europe tell me. I know you Europeans love to criticise America, it's your hobby. It makes you feel superior and helps you forget your envy. "

Maybe you will not believe me, but in many concerns I admire the USA. I admire the dynamic power of the American system, the will and ability to do and act were we in Europe are  caught by all kind of consideration. We don't feel superior. That is what you are entitled to.

"I asked more than one coworker from England what suprised him most about the US and he said: "I did not realize America was so much wealthier than England".

England didn't either get a good result on that report I referred to. Thanks to many  years  with Margareth Thatcher England has got a big underclass with a lot of poor people. It's very sad. However it's true, I've never seen so big donuts as in California. In the beginning I didn't recognise them :-) and wonderful Kentucky Fried Chickens and never so many fat people :-).On my ride along with the LA-police, I've never seen so much misery either.

"When we say we have a house that's 20 meters squared, we are not counting the yard, the garage or the basement."
Neither did I. You should, however, understand the climate in Norway is rather harsh sometimes, especially in winter. We need big and comfortable and good houses. People here spend a lot more money on that than in most other places.

"Your opportunities in Europe are very limited compared to ours and you will never understand that."

What about some arguments telling me why it is like that? I don't  understand what possibilities you are having that I'm not.

"I know wealth isn't everything, but you sound as if you resent people for working hard and becoming successful. That's so European. I make no apologies for liking this country over others."

It's true we in some degrees make life too comfortable for some lazybones, but when I go home for celebrating Christmas, I can do it and know that everybody here has enough money for a decent living. (Even if I know some people use all their money for drugs). If you, however, would like to make a carrier, you need to work hard.

"Spend time with you wife or maybe read a book on Marx. Relax, until the oil runs out and then somebody younger in your country will work very hard to support your retirement. "

Maybe you have some book of Marx to recommend? It's true, I did in my young days read some communist literature. Not because I was a communist, but because I would like to understand what we had to fight.

About the oil. You know we now are pumping out the oil and gas from the North Sea (between Norway and Great Britain). We have just begun to exploit the enormous gas and oil resources in the Norwegian Sea, and still we have the gigantic  resources in the Barents Sea  left. We will not empty that in our lifetime. By the way, Norway are using only a little part of our oil incomes, mainly the interests. Most of the incomes we invest in other countries, and our oil-fund now consists of billions of dollars. I'm sorry I had to disappoint you.

Johnny W

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

and each country's people do want to have others think they are doing quite well.  And that their country is the best...at whatever.  It is the spirit of nationalism.  I think we should respect that and I think many comparisons are comparing apples to oranges.  America is a country of plenty...we have plenty of everything.  

  It has also been my experience too that Western Euro's visiting here are astounded by our largess..of everything.  The price and quality and abunance here sets the first time visitor into a state of amazement.  One case:  Last summer a friend came over from London with his kids and wife for 2 weeks.  He's a smart guy with a couple of bucks and a London businessman with 3 restaurants.  Our prices and quality and abundance just knocked him out...really.  Things like shrimp and lobster and beef tenderloin and gas and clothing and furniture and....made him like a little kid.  These things he assured me were triple,  at best in London.  Well,  he was on Holiday and he loaded the fridge with shrimp and lobster and he felt like a jolly good king here.  Which was funny because he is really such a skiflint...I mean a real cheapo.  Oh! wines,  our selection of wines is 10 times the selection and much cheaper with a greater variety.  Now,  my sister in Sweden?  So many things that are easy and cheap for me to have over here...are impossible,  virtually for her to get.  And they throw so many tax's on things,  that it is just silly.

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

Bubba, I don't want to get into a fight over whose is the best country. But Many Americans are over sensitive about it. And when you talk about socialism it looks like you're still feeling the after effects of McCarthyism. It's like you have an inferiority complex. If you didn't say the US is the greatest 10 times a day maybe you wouldn't believe it yourself. Don't get too offended by this because I'm not trying to insult you or your country. I just want you to take a close look at the way you presented yourself.

I laughed when I read about tearing down a 30 year old stadium. Canada's development closely echoed the US's. When we tear down a 30 year old building it's because it was a piece of crap. Built out of substandard materials that couldn't last. The old buildings I saw in Europe were solid. They weren't made out of pressed paper and softwood like everything built around here in the last 40 or so years.

Take it easy guys. It's good to have a little national pride. But that doesn't mean you need to constantly insult the rest of the world. That goes for the Europeans as well as the Americans.

... in response to Re: I was wasting my time replying to yo..., posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2001

He said the US was one of the worst countries a RW could move to and I said it was not.  That got the whole thread going with the back and forth stereotypes.  

I wouldn't really insist this was a country with such great opportunities if I was pumping gas somewhere.  No, I am doing very well and I appreciate what I have.  As an engineer, I have so many friends that have struck it rich and those are the opportunities I refer to.  

Oh, we don't tear down our stadiums because they aren't well built, we just want a bigger one with restaurants and luxury skyboxes.  The Texas stadium was a big screwup though.  It's an open dome because the design was flawed.  Maybe they'll tear that down and do a bigger one.

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

Let's also not forget that the reason that most Europeans can gloat about their socialized medicine and other social programs being superior is because their national security is graciously funded by the American taxpayer in the form of NATO.
-- Jeff S.

... in response to Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

Johnny,

I suspect we have more common ground than disagreement. I am only happy that my Olya didn't take your advice of looking to Europe instead of America - though, in her particular case, I feel pretty strongly she could adjust to just about any circumstance - and that quality has served her well here in America.

As for an American-centric view of the world - yes, it is a sad fact that a lot of Americans cling to the notion that America is the "best" country in the world. I honestly don't know what "best" represents anymore.

I *do* know that - for the majority of it's populace - India wasn't a very nice place to live.

I also know, as I posted before, that I think central Europeans have a much better standard-of-living than may be apparent from  statistics - and I have heard that Scandinavia is even better. I'd like to find out - and maybe someday I will.

You know - speaking of sad facts and the American-centric view being misplaced. I cannot help but think about the "forced democratization" or maybe "forced capitalism" that is being foisted upon the FSU countries right now. It seems that because America - with it's VERY unique history and constituents has been successful in wealth-building - that other countries in the emerging world order are expected to follow that template. I submit that it is entirely the wrong template for FSU. I could go on at some length as to reasons why, but the evidence is in the decade since the collapse of the Soviet Union - AND - in the proximity to it's neighbors - nearly all of which operate some form of socialistic government.

Anyway - just a few idle thoughts on a Sunday afternoon.

Regards,

- Dan

... in response to Re: Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Dan on Dec 16, 2001

Dan,
"I suspect we have more common ground than disagreement. I am only happy that my Olya didn't take your advice of looking to Europe instead of America - though, in her particular case, I feel pretty strongly she could adjust to just about any circumstance - and that quality has served her well here in America. "

Dan, I wish you all the best, and I'm quite sure she will find America  wonderful together with you. I don't mean and didn't  say that America can't be a good country for Russian ladies. I just  pointed to something I've noticed. First: America can be a hard and merciless country (Life can be bright in America, if you are rich in America). What if you don't have a lot of money? Second: the American way of life  can be very different from what people are used to  in Eastern Europe. Of course they will be impressed by your supermarkets, freeways and whatever more you have. However, people in your country have little time for each other, and social isolation can be very hard.

Some years ago I had contact with a lady from Russia who married a guy from Texas and moved there. In the  days (he was probably working shift work) she was sitting alone without anybody to talk to. Everything was expensive. I'm not talking about donuts and chickens, but about education, drivers license and studying English. In the end she left him and moved back. She never told me he was a bad man, but I think it was social isolation that killed their relationship.

"As for an American-centric view of the world - yes, it is a sad fact that a lot of Americans cling to the notion that America is the "best" country in the world. I honestly don't know what "best" represents anymore. "

I'm sorry Dan, but it's well known over the rest of the world that Americans in general are very ignorant about the rest of the world. They travel little, few speak other languages than their own, and most of you have unrealistic perceptions about how wonderful America is. Of course their are exceptions. By best friend through many years, David, lived outside LA, and wiser man I've never met. I believe there are many more like him "over there".

"You know - speaking of sad facts and the American-centric view being misplaced. I cannot help but think about the "forced democratization" or maybe "forced capitalism" that is being foisted upon the FSU countries right now. It seems that because America - with it's VERY unique history and constituents has been successful in wealth-building - that other countries in the emerging world order are expected to follow that template. "
rest snipped

I agree with you. I think it's a very correct observation.  I name that kind of capitalism that they tried to introduce in Russia for "pirate capitalism". A few persons get hold of the most valuable industries in the country for nothing. Russia should have chosen their own way whatever that would have been.
Regards
Johnny W

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

NTV in Russia was unable to acquire ownership of NTV International because of the political nature of the takeover. We don't see the same programs as you do.

I think your statistics are probably skewed. It's fairly common to post biased statistics and skewed scientific data for the purpose of influencing public opinion. The politicians do it with polls, environmentalists do it with unsubstantiated data, and sociologists do it by several methods that produce the false statistics you have mentioned.

I don't think any NTV program has the budget to perform such research with any sort of accuracy... since they're still losing money. To trust any sort of data, you would have to perform true objective research. That's rarely done in sociological circles these days because it's not ideologically expedient.

-blm

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

Tootsie you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, da**ed lies and statistics!

All I know is that tomorrow my wife and I can celebrate two years together, and our relationship is still growing.

By the way, I think that the chances for a happy and lasting relationship varies according to what country we talk about. I think that the USA is the worst country  for a Russian lady to go to.

Johnny W

... in response to Dam**d lies and statistics., posted by Johnny W on Dec 15, 2001

Healthy Relationships shouldn`t distinct between any borders. What counts is, you two make it grow, communicate, understand etc. Could be "bad" guy in Norway or US...or "gold digger" and "visa hunter" RW/UK lady in Tokyo, LA or Dusseldorf..I`ve seen on my own.  US may not be "perfect" country in the world, but is there ideal place ? ( maybe Thomas Moruse`s "Utopia" island lol )ideal country ?. US is built by immigrants ( mostly europeans ), so is Canada, Australia . These are "melting pots " of diffrent cultures, diffrent people . Sure , there may be some discrimination here in US, but I think it`s worse in Europe, which history shows us many examples of nationalistic or religious turbulances there . Scaninavia may be "heaven" for single mothers, having one of the best in the world social care programs , but Scandinavia is also famous for it`s idividual, gas, tabacco, alcohol and other taxes. Per capita may be higher in Norway , Sweden or Switzerland than US.....but Brunei or Nauru or UAE have per capita higher than Europe. Does it mean they are "better" place to live...well, not to me . US has around 100 milion households (5/6 members per household ) worth $1 million or more according to statistics. Yes, we have problems here , but as any " big " country,  their "grow bigger " as whole world is looking at us. To me, there is no better country than US( in general ) in terms of education or business opportunities. There many foregn students comming each year to study over here. There many immigrants who built succesfull small businesses. We have variety of climates from  sunny Florida ,California ,Arizona ,four season New Hamshire to evergreen Wasington . We don`t have to fly to Spain or Greece as most North European "snow birds" do.  Actually our equvalent to european tourist travel would be Hawaii or Mexico. Didn`t US place first for the most number Nobel Prize  winners during 100 celebration of Nobel Foundation in Oslo 2 weeks ago ?... So happy home is where your your two hearts belong .   John     . By the way , I`ve lived in few diffrent countries in Europe for 21 years ( Scandinavia included ) before comming to USA 22 years ago

... in response to Dam**d lies and statistics., posted by Johnny W on Dec 15, 2001

Norway is probably a little easier to adjust to that the US because it may have more cultural similarity.  It also helps to be closer to Russia or Ukraine so they can visit friends and relatives.  You have those long vacations and comfortable socialism people like.  

The US is however, a wealthy country and is a big step up from Europe.  I don't think they can imagine having so much.  There are lots of things to see that are so different from Europe that it may end up being a bigger adventure to come here.  They just need to get the right guy help it all work.

... in response to No, the US is better than lots of places, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 15, 2001

It depends on what you mean with being wealthy. Nobody doubt that the USA is a powerful nation with lot of resources, human and material. The problem is that your political system disperse those resources so uneven. A lot of power and wealth are concentrated on a few hands. Even if there are a big middle-class in America, none Western country has so many poor and homeless people. None Western country has so many illiterates and children that is starving. None Western country has so much crime. It's a shame for your country that Norway needs to give aid to American children. On the list over the standard of living in different countries published by the UN, the USA got a very little flattering position. On the top of the list were some small countries in Western Europe (I'm too modest to write the name of my own country :-)). The problem is that most American are so ignorant about the world around them, that they still think America has the highest standard of living. Maybe it was the truth long time ago, but the world is changing, and since so many of you don't like to travel so see how other people are living, you still are having that delusion.

Johnny W

... in response to Re: No, the US is better than lots of pl..., posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

The reason you guys in Norway have it so good is because you have all that North Sea oil money revenue to spend on just a few million people.  When that runs out, things won't be so easy.  

I don't worry about the nonsense published by the UN.  Only socialism scores well with them.  We don't have national health care but so what.  A coworker had his wife injured in an accident and he said if he still lived in England, his wife would be crippled for life.  They would never have spent the money necessary to make her walk again as our company insurance.  In England, several thousand women die of breast cancer each year because the government won't spend more money for better cancer treatment.  In a couple of countries they try to encourage old people to end their life.  How does that rate with the UN?

What I like about the US is that taxes are not so unreasonably high as Europe, so we can save our money and spend it how we like and not how the government likes.  If we work a little harder, we can make more money and have nicer things.  You can chose many different lifestyles.  If people are lazy and have lots of bad habits that contribute to their circumstances. I do not feel sorry for them.  A lot of homeless people are mentally ill or have drug problems.  It is hard to help people that won't help themselves by taking their medicine or not abusing drugs.  

I have watched people start out in ordinary circumstances and become rich and the weathiest people in town lose their money from stupidity.  People chose their path and it can be up or down.  More that 90% of the poor people in the US have color TVs, microwave ovens, stereos and all the basics. They also tend to be more overweight than rich people, so basically nobody is starving.  About 70% of the people own their own homes.  

I have traveled to several countries and here is a list:

Russia, economically poor but educated and cultured
Latvia, not too bad, alchoholism rampant
Finland, very nice and very educated,
Germany, nice countryside but I didn't see many nice homes
Denmark, Copenhagen was crowded and there were lots of big apartment buildings, it was just ok

New Zealand, had the world's highest standard of living in the 1960s and it looked nice, nobody very wealthy though
Peru, poor and a little scary
Korea, much less than what we have but making fast progress
Malaysia, not so good but making fast progress

Canada, similar to US, lots of Canadians come here because they want to make more money, Canadians complained about how little money they made there, still not bad

... in response to Re: No, the US is better than lots of pl..., posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

So right,  the US is better than a lot of other places,  but a lot of places are better than the US.  All is in the eyes of
the beholder.  And more, what a person understand, can understand, want to understand.
Forget the nationalism,  my flag is better then yours, mine is bigger than yours, etc.
Ask any girl, love is what it is all about.
When one speaks about love, what comes to mind,  french, french kiss, french love,...
and I am french, so the world is mine.
So forget about nationalism.

... in response to Re: No, the US is better than lots of pl..., posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

The political system DOES NOT disperse the resources evenly or otherwise. It's up to each individual whether he or she is rich or poor, privilidged or a victim. And yes, I have traveled extensively out of the US and yes, we have more opportunity here than anywhere, and a higher standard of living than anywhere.
-- Jeff S.

... in response to That's the whole point, posted by Jeff S on Dec 16, 2001

For me personally, if I had to make a choice, I'd rather live in a one room apartment off Main Street, Huntington Beach than in a 200 room palace somewhere in Lapland, Scandinavia.  Decent weather is never factored in to those U.N. survey's. 8-)

... in response to Standard of Living is all relative, posted by Bob S. on Dec 17, 2001

Germs will freeze to death and you can name your reindeer whatever you want.  

Our buddy would not like Huntington Beach.

... in response to Bob, I can see you thriving in Lappland, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 18, 2001

-P
:-)

... in response to No, the US is better than lots of places, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 15, 2001

After living a while in Germany, I am not so sure we Americans have the best standard of living and all that. Seems I met more people in Germany (percentage-wise) with leisure time (and money) to travel and take foreign vacations - and the funds to purchase houses - than I have here in the US. Some of this is attributable to their shorter work-week, but some of it is simply due to their overall affluence.

I haven't had the opportunity yet to visit Scandinavia - but I understand the standard-of-living is quite high in all Scandinavian coutries as well.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to Oh, I Don't Know . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 15, 2001

Hi Dan,

Good to meet an American that has been out of his own country. It's true what you write.

The working week here is 37,5 (shorter if you have shift work). The yearly vacation is 5 weeks. Most people own their own houses. It is not unusual that people have house bigger than 200 m2 (1 m = 39.37 U.S. inches). The standard of houses are very high equiped with all kind of modern facilities. Due to taxes cars are expensive in Norway (not so in the rest of Western Europe). In spite of that most families have one or even two cars. (Japanese, Swedish, German and French cars are most popular, but some people also like big American cars). Everybody here travels at least one time every year on a vacation to another country. Thailand, Florida, Spain, Greece the West Indies are popular places for vacation. The best of all is, however, we have good state retirements, good health care, good educational system and no pollution (with the exception of Oslo that has a problem with pollution from cars).

Johnny W

... in response to Oh, I Don't Know . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 15, 2001

Dan,

I still think that that US leads for per capita income -- by a margin.

We in the United States could travel a lot -- anywhere we want -- but we don't set it as a priority. (I am using We to say Americans in general...)

We're too busy buying X-Boxes, TVs for every room of the house, a new car, etc., etc.

Europeans are much more inclined to place a priority on travel, and therefore, are more likely to do it.

Also, going from Germany to France is not as hard to do as it is to go from Texas to France...

Not to say that a RW is better off coming to America... but standard of living... yep, we still lead... IMHO

... in response to Oh, I Don't Know . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 15, 2001

Tax's are quite high too,  Best,  Tim

... in response to Scandanavia?, posted by tim360z on Dec 16, 2001

Scandanavia also has the highest:
1. Divorce rate
2. Abortion rate
3. Suicide rate
4. Illigitimacy rate

of all of the industrialized nations.

Probably because it has the *lowest* rate of morality.

This is not to say that I disagree with everything JohnnyW says. He makes some good points about America: too much emphasis on money making and materialism, increasing social isolation, too many people who know little about the world outside of the US (true of all people everywhere). He is obviously wrong about the country being "merciless", in fact the opposite is true. BUT,

The issue is not who has the "best" country or culture. As has been noted above, "there is no place like home."  Quote: Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. So one's viewpoint is necessarily skewed in favor of "Kansas."

The real issue is - what is the true measure? What is the correct yardstick upon which to measure or debate the true value of a nation or culture? Is it material wealth? The existence of socialist welfare programs? A liberal amoral mindset? The best athletes? Or the best movie production? A prevalence towards New Age philosophy or secular humanism? Or maybe Racism/superiority complex (like Nazi Aryanism or Pan Slavism)?

Or perhaps it is morality, mercy and justice. The rule of law. Due process and freedom of speech. Perhaps we should take a look at what the Creator of the Universe has to say about the matter: " Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34; See also 2 Chronicles 7:14; Deuteronomy 4: 5-9.

The truth is all nations fail the test. Even America, the remnant of Biblical Christianity is sliding. Following in the footsteps of postChristian, postModern Europe.

Let me take this opportunity to once again predict the future: the worldwide moral slide will continue, and wax worse and worse. The good news: John 3:16. Rev. 19:11.

... in response to The Real Issue is not Kansas, posted by WmGo on Dec 18, 2001

But I didn't even want to get into it.  Problems 1, 2 and 4 are an indication of family breakdown which their society is promoting.  Could that be causing problem 3, or can that all be blamed on the weather.  The suicide rate of white males in Scandanavia is more than twice the US rate.  It's about 3 times higher in Japan.  My friend says that it's also a big Chinese problem.  

People in the US are among the happiest people in the world but Iceland had the happiest people even though they have high a alchoholism rate.  This was from a pole a few years back.  Iceland is possible the least ethnically diverse country in the world so maybe that gives them a sense of common purpose.  

A lot of the US success is based on our work ethic, morals and the level of trust we can have in dealing with others.  I think US problems will mount if we continue our moral slide.

... in response to Scandanavia?, posted by tim360z on Dec 16, 2001

That's true. Sometimes we pay up to 50% income tax, but our system gives security and welfare to everybody. You don't need to save a lot of money to pay for education and health care, and all immigrants get free education in Norwegian.It means that as soon as she comes here, she will begin to study together with other immigrants and in this way she will learn to know people and can make her own friends. When you also take into consideration that in your  country you hardly know your own neighbours, social isolation is a big problem for foreigners that doesn't speak English well.

Johnny W

... in response to Re: Scandanavia?, posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

Yes,  tax's are high,  but as you mentioned there are benefits.  My sister has lived in Sweden for the last 10 years and has enjoyed those benefits which would cost considerably here in the USA.  She moved there as a single mother and was amazed by the free health care and child care etc...something which is sorely needed here in the USA.  Of course,  she also misses certain conveniences we take for granted here---so its a trade off.

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

may be yes, may be no
may be rain, may be snow

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Statistics, posted by RW on Dec 15, 2001

nt

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

An 80% divorce rate is believable (but probably a little high) if you consider that the divorce rate in the US is about 55% and in Russia and Ukraine it is over 60%.  It would be hard to get some truly accurate statistics though.  You are also adding on the problems of different cultures, age difference, the couples often don't know each other well, can't communicate, social isolation in a new culture, loss of friends and family, difficulty in selecting the right woman, etc.  Some of the women are just trying to get to the US and are taking anybody that will buy them a ticket here.  Don't expect them to succeed.  

When you think about it though the women are only divorcing at a 20% higher rate than they would in their own country and I'll bet it's a whole lot easier to divorce a Russian woman than an American woman; certain posters comments aside.  

I think a marriage to a RW/UW will be a lot of work just like with an AW.  I remain optimistic because several people I know that married foreign woman are happily married and none divorced.  Only one is Russian, all the other are Asian.  Several posters on this board became interested because they know success stories.  Those that know horror stories probably never became interested.

... in response to Yet I remain optimistic, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 15, 2001

....Don't "bet"...it is not "easy" to divorce either :(
Also, why would the Russian reporters choose to make up these stats ? (not that I believe them either)

... in response to Couple of other points..., posted by tfcrew on Dec 15, 2001

My line of thinking is that American women know how to screw you through the legal system a little bit better than Russian women would, but of course they both use American divorce lawyers.  Russian women may have an element of fear that they will lose out while being portrayed as a scammer woman from Russia in our court system.  

From American news media, I they just don't like you rejecting your own women here for a young pretty foreign one.  It is also partly our rejection of the feminist attitudes of our women.  

From the Russian perspective, it could look like a failure of their culture compared to the capitalism of the west.  The poverty in foreign countries and its negative effects on their families and social conditions shows the failure of their economic systems versus ours.  But, we do get too caught up with money sometimes and that is a valid criticism of us.

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

Did they cite their sources? Are the sources reliable? If not (or neither) - then WHY do you trust them?

Have you considered what 'agenda' NTV may be pushing these days??

Your post - while mildly interesting - simply raises dozens of questions before it can be considered the least bit credible.

BTW - wasn't it Russian news programming that gave accounts of 8 hijacked planes in America on 9/11??

- Dan

... in response to Do You Believe Them??, posted by Dan on Dec 15, 2001

Sign me up for the Dan fan club.  That's twice I praised you in 2 days.

I think a lot of news agencies hate the whole concept of men going abroad to marry women and the women that marry them.  You see it in the US and I would not be surprised if the attitude over in Russian or Ukraine is similar. Happy couples are pretty quiet but the bad marriages are like a bomb going off.  Everybody hears about it and it makes the news.  Good news gets poor ratings.  

You know we have seen couples that have at least succeeded so far on TV.  Remember the story ABC's 20/20 did on the 3 married couples and what were their chances of divorce?  The man married to the Russian woman was most likely to stay married even though she was a model that met good looking men every week.  Then you also had that contestant on "Who wants to be a millionaire?".  They looked happy.  

... in response to That's another good point Dan, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 15, 2001

You hit right on the head,  happy people (couples here) have no story, they are happy, that is all.
The ones,  we are hearing about, are the sad story.
Unfornately there  has to be rain and sunshine.
Didn't someone say, earlier on a post,  that it does take two to tango and also to tangle

... in response to That's another good point Dan, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 15, 2001

I haven't kept up with the very latest developments - but about a year ago NTV was considered to be relatively independent of government influence. Suddenly, for reasons I only vaguely recall, ownership of NTV was ripped from teh hands of the founders, and placed under teh auspices of GazProm. GazProm, as it turns out, is the national Gas company of Russia - and there was some debate about ownership and interests. Clearly, Putin had some significant influence in all of this - and while it, perhaps, cannot be legitimately claimed that NTV is now nationalized - one has to wonder about al the shady dealings that resulted in the takeover.

You may recall some months back that the staff of NTV had staged a mild protest that reached international headlines. They did not want to work for their new taskmasters assigned by the GazProm organization.

If there is one single tenet of freedom that MUST be sacrosanct - it is the freedom of the press. Without a truly free press, corruption and crime are allowed to run rampant. One need only look at events in Russia and Ukraine to begin to understand how important this is. Have you heard about the beheading of the journalist in Ukraine (Gonghadze) that is allegedly due directly to the President's dissatisfaction with him? It ultimately led to Kuchma's (the President of Ukraine) manipulating his chief Deputy (Yuschenko) out of office. How about the editor of the Kiev Post (an English-newspaper in Ukraine) being detained for days when he tried to re-enter the country from a trip abroad? No reason given - just simple harassment - along with a message.

I wonder who ended up replacing those journalists at NTV when they were forcibly removed from their offices???

- Dan

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

I have no problem with your numbers,  it is about the norm, right now, everywhere.
Because in the west we do not count the people living together without being married, and who split up down the
road.  Or the couples staying together because of material-financial reasons and the kids. Church, social
pressure, etc.
Anyway in a normal love story, passion only last for something like seven days to seven years.
So when some guys bring on top of all that (passion) the church and fidelity, they are on their way to the
mediators, lawyers and divorce courts.

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

but liars figure!!  An old adage that is even more true today than when it was created - one can "cook" (work backwards from) any set of numbers to 'prove a point'.
I have no quarrel with anyone saying that the chance of any marriage 'failing' is much higher today than it was say 50 years ago, and likewise, no quarrel with a 'comment' that 'intercultural' marriages may have a higher failure rate due to the increased burdens placed upon both partners due to linguistic, historical and cultural differences.
It may well be that the numbers of those wearing 'rose coloured glasses' may well be higher in 'intercultural' unions.
Nevertheless, it not only 'takes two to tango', it also 'takes to to tangle'.

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

bent and biased and skewed.  There is the validity of the sample to consider.  How the data is gathered and interroplated.  Garbage in= Garbage out.  One cannot beleive each and every stat thrown out.  I am not sure,  but I do think that AM/RW marriages should have a divorce rate somewhat consistent with AM/AW divorces.  And perhaps the former should be a little higher due to cultural differences and the quality of people getting married.  So,  I find 80% rather high...but 65% should probably be in line.  In todays pervasive world marriage to anyone is not a really good bet.  The odds at a blackjack table in Vegas are much better and less costly.  And you can walk away from the table with your shirt and shoes on.

... in response to Re: Statistics and stats can be, posted by tim360z on Dec 15, 2001

Some time ago, I wrote a post that used blackjack to compare and analyze this whole RW/AM thing.

I'll not repost it now... but let me talk about Blackjack for a second.

If you play perfect blackjack, the house maintains about a two percent edge on you. While that does not seem like much, the fact is that if you sit down to a $5 blackjack table with $100 and play perfect blackjack, you will lose it all in about three hours.

Most people lose it in much less. Because they play with emotion, and they play hunches.

So... about marriage and divorce. Yes, I can believe the 80% figure -- especially if it is including in its number the amount of women who return home at the end of 90 days.

Why?

Look at the people going over!

I'm not even talking about anyone on here. How many men who are doing this even read this board? What percentage of men who are heading to the FSU have even taken the time to chat with people who have done it before?

What are their expectations? They are set by Anastasia's website. What do you think they are believing? That they will marry a woman who is twenty years their junior, and who will be a good wife to them forever. They go over on a tour, pick a woman from a line-up because she's pretty, and bring her over to get married.

Or they pick a pretty face from a catalog. Write her for a few months. Then go over and get her.

What percentage of these marriages do you think have a chance of making it? It is like the guy with $100 sitting down at the blackjack table and playing hunches.

Now, as you might guess, I play a fair amount of blackjack. I have sat at tables and watched that streak-player come and go a lot. I have seen a few who made money. Incredibly, I have seen some make a lot of money.

But I have seen far more lose it all. And lose it quickly.

It's a little game I play. When someone sits down and buys  in with $40 or something, I look at my watch, and try to guess how long he'll last.

It isn't very long.

But, do you know the guys who are usually sitting there with me for a very long time? The guys who buy in with $500. When that happens, the pit boss will come over and look at the guy, so he remembers him.

This guy usually plays with little emotion. His moves can be tracked, easily, because he plays "by the book". He'll vary his bet from time to time, but never his play. In the end, he frequently gets up with more money than he sat down with.

He beats the odds.

Why? Because he has A) Enough money to stay in the game, and B) A system that works.

IMHO, That's the only way to win the FSU game, as well.

Unless you think you're lucky.

But... before you do... you ought to go to Vegas. At night. Stand on the strip and see the amazing buildings rise to the sky -- adorned with a million lights. And tell yourself:

"This city was built with the help of a lot of people who felt lucky..."

-M-

... in response to Re: Re: Statistics and stats can be, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 15, 2001

impression that a cerain number of guys thinkin' about marrying an RW/UW certainly need a little check-up from the neck-up.  Like a little psyschological tune-up.  Like they are more than a little nuts or whacked or beyond rational.  Sorta swimmin' in their own little fish tank...all alone.  Maybe they are thinkin' they are going to buy their own little sexzombie or something.  If they somehow get married...are they due to be divorced....sure.  Like one girl I know wanted to know if all western men are nuts.  Ya know,  shes with an agency and she gets letters from guys all the time who in their first letter write they are in love with her and many in the 2nd letter want her to marry them.  Of course,  shes smart enough to know these guys are whacked.  But,  maybe some other girl,  poorer and less educated will fall for it and definitely get divorced.  I think there is probably a disproportinate % of whacked guys pursuing RW/UW's.  Just my take on it and stats and all that.

... in response to Re: Re: Statistics and stats can be, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 15, 2001

Yeah!  I agree with your blackjack stats.  And that most guys never even make it to this board until it is way too late....they were feelin'  a little lucky...or something.  Then you have to realize the savy of the players in the game.  Now,  i have a good idea of the savy some of the guys on this board have some are quite good....but I really do not know much about all the others out there.  But,  some of the other characters out there...I dunno know.

... in response to Re: Re: Statistics and stats can be, posted by MarkInTx on Dec 15, 2001

n/t

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

What is the source of these statistics? How reliable are these?
I have heard of similar statistics before; which I sometimes passed on to this Board.
This Board has deference for you; so probably you will be treated better.

Mark

... in response to Re: Statistics, posted by mdante99 on Dec 15, 2001

The source is the TV programme "To be continued" by Julia Menjshova, NTV channel. I like this programme and trust it but it's me.

Regards,

Tootsie