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Paul Wayman just posted a story on RWL that might blow your socks off; particularly the reply he got from one RW that is included.

I don't know anything about the other posting board he mentioned that supposedly has 8,000 RW as posters, but it might be worth checking out.  Below is the title of his post today on RWL.  He was supposedly married to young RW for 4 years before her affair started.

JR
- - - - - - - - -

Will your fiancee have outside affairs after you are married?
From: F. Paul Wyman

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

I will add a few words about my experiences.

I was married to an AW; I am now married to a lovely girl from FSU. In between I have known many many AW, and several RW. The concept of infidelity is completely different for RW than it is for AW. Enough has been said here by several eloquent posters; I will only add that it is something that an AM looking for a relationship with RW must consider.

Mark

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

not whether this is 'sour grapes' or about a man who didn't do enough checking, etc.  As I see it the real question is that posed by Stevo below.  I have recopied it here so it doesn't get lost in the clutter below:

"I certainly didn't get the impression he was blaming RW, just noting that attitudes and cultural differences of RW predispose them to doing things that we in America don't find as acceptable as in Russia. And he wanted to verify this attitude difference by asking about it on thw RWL. The reply post by one young woman was especially revealing about RW attitudes (of course, not held by ALL RW).

My limited experience suggests much the same thing, that in general, RW are more likely to stray than their AW counteparts, hence you must be even more careful when choosing a partner from the FSU. Certainly there are plenty of faithful RW, but their life experiences are different than those of AW and they don't attach the same level of moral outrage to cheating as we do in America. I think that was all the poster intended to state."

Now, do we have any 'facts' to support or refute what Stevo is suggesting?

JR

... in response to The real question here is, posted by juio99 on Dec 11, 2001

I asked her if she thought RW are more prone to cheating than AW.  After reflecting on this for a moment, she said it was without a doubt true.

She (NOT me) said that 60% of married women cheat on their husbands, for many reasons including:  husband drinks too much, husband doesn't care about appearance, husband never wants to go out and have fun with wife, husband has mistress of his own, there is nothing else to do for diversion, it's a way to get a few nice things, etc., etc.

Personally, I find it hard to believe the numbers are that high, but that's what SHE said, and I've got to believe her observations are better than mine regarding this subject.

So, if it is true, it means you (AM) have to be extra careful in choosing a RW as a mate (in comparison with an AW).

And if you disagree with me, remember, it is NOT my opinion!

Stevo

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

It's another marriage failure story. Mr. Wyman seems to paint RW with a broad brush and describe them as prostitutes. I know this is not the case. I think his feelings are the result of sour grapes.

He just married a bad RW, that's it. There are a lot of unsuitable RW who hook up with AM. Some common sense and patience can eliminate those problems.

-blm

... in response to I don't think the story is fantastic. It..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

ggg

... in response to I think you have a reading problem...thi..., posted by Stevo on Dec 11, 2001

Stevo,
Some marriages succeed and some fail, but to put the blame for failure on the fact that the wife was a RW is where the "sour grapes" comes from.  Sh!t can happen, period.

Now if you want to debate that "this" process breeds certain mistakes that are more likely to cause marriages to be unsuccessful, then there is some validity in my mind.  Couples rushing to the alter too quickly, guys marrying out of their league, RW saying anything to get out of their situation  and yes, even too big of an age difference are all likely mistakes that can lead to a bad ending.  But even these "mistakes" are shared by the AM, not only the RW.

Marriage is a tricky proposition on it's own.  The failure rates here in America make it a 50/50 deal.  I don't think that adding a RW to the mix will make ANY difference (better or worse).  To point a finger of blame at all RW is just foolishness.
KenC

... in response to Re: I think you have a reading problem....., posted by KenC on Dec 11, 2001

1

... in response to Ken, Stevo makes some good points below...., posted by juio99 on Dec 11, 2001

JR,
Stevo make a great point when he says, "Certainly there are plenty of faithful RW, but their life experiences are different than those of AW and they don't attach the same level of moral outrage to cheating as we do in America".  I have to agree with his point on this.  As I posted above, my wife's thoughts on this subject are that the RW will appreciate the fidelity of AM and therefore be MORE faithful than an AW who would take that fidelity for granted.  Afterall, who likes to be cheated on?  Just because infidelity is common place in Russia, doesn't mean that it is accepted by all.
KenC

... in response to Re: I think you have a reading problem....., posted by KenC on Dec 11, 2001

that he still had a good relationship with his ex-RW and that he was still considering going back to Russia to find another wife.  I certainly didn't get the impression he was blaming RW, just noting that attitudes and cultural differences of RW predispose them to doing things that we in America don't find as acceptable as in Russia.  And he wanted to verify this attitude difference by asking about it on thw RWL.  The reply post by one young woman was especially revealing about RW attitudes (of course, not held by ALL RW).

My limited experience suggests much the same thing, that in general, RW are more likely to stray than their AW counteparts, hence you must be even more careful when choosing a partner from the FSU.  Certainly there are plenty of faithful RW, but their life experiences are different than those of AW and they don't attach the same level of moral outrage to cheating as we do in America.   I think that was all the poster intended to state.

... in response to The guy posting the story said..., posted by Stevo on Dec 11, 2001

STevo,
That's what I was going to say, but you beat me to it. Good response to the issue at hand. You put the matter right back into focus.

In my many travels to FSU I have met a few ladies that I felt would be strong and faithful wives. But I cannot say this about most of the women I have met there.

There are many good points that emerge from the recent posts on fidelity:

1. Tootsie: the importance of taking time and getting to know the person as much as possible.

2. RW: Everyone is different and character and commitment is either present or absent. Play close attention to the lady's family situation.

3. Jimmy and the Wyman guy: Cultural attitudes  and mores need to be known and understood with respect to marital fidelity. FSU attitudes are very different from American.

Certainly, there *are* FSUW who share the American value system in this area. However, they appear to be a minority, and the key is to find them.

Good luck!

WmGOlikesgoodluck

... in response to The guy posting the story said..., posted by WmGo on Dec 11, 2001

Well said WmGO.

Mark

... in response to The guy posting the story said..., posted by Stevo on Dec 11, 2001

are more likely to stray than their AW counterparts. Isn't that obvious. There is definately sour grapes in that story. Most of the story is about how most RW are hustlers both implicitly and explicitly. There is a moral outrage to cheating in Russia. That's one of the reasons there are so many divorces there.

One thing they so many of you on here fail to realize is that there are a lot of RW scammers and hustlers trying to hook up with AM. Your exposure to them is much higher than the normal Russian populace. Use common sense to weed them out. I don't have such problems because my criteria is much more stringint. My RW have to pass a major smell test to taken into consideration. That's the advantage to being Orthodox.

-blm

... in response to RW hookers..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

Barry,
Go back and read all the old posts about the phenomena known as "sponsorship." Half or more of the women in FSU have "sponsors." It is *this* behavior that the young Russian woman was referring to in her response that was copied below from the RWL. The REALITY is that the overwhelming majority of Russian and Ukrainian and Baltic States women do not consider anything wrong with having a "sponsor" or marrying a man strictly for purposes of economic survival.

Have you been over there yet? It is quite apparent even upon casual observation - as well as just talking and visiting with the locals what the deal is.

Good luck - astarozhna!

WmGO

... in response to RW hookers..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

....Hows that Barry? Whats the advantage to being Orthodox?

A better sense of smell? Seems that sense of smell is gonna turn into a sense of long term loneliness, because you ended up fishing in a much smaller pond.

No offense, I just don't get it.....

... in response to lol...Huh?, posted by LP on Dec 11, 2001

LP,
I think I know what he meant, but it certainly didn't come out right. One thing he will discover once he goes over and spends significant time there is that most people in FSU consider themselves "Orthodox" although they do not even know the most rudimentary Bible doctrine, much less do they believe in it. A true "Orthodox" Christian is hard to find there. Possible, but a small pond indeed.

... in response to I don't think the story is fantastic. It..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

Date:         Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:46:14 -0800

Reply-To:     "F. Paul Wyman"

Sender:       Russian-Women-L - Relationships with Russian & Soviet Women

             

From:         "F. Paul Wyman"

Subject:      Will your fiancee have outside affairs after you are married?

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

It's been a while since I've posted, so I will give a brief reprise. I
was an active RWL'er back in 1997-98.  In our 4th year of marriage, I
discovered my RW was having secret meetings with other men for at least
6 months.  This was the one thing that I had warned her about, from our
first meeting, that I would never be able to abide.  The discovery came
about one year after, and with my ample moral and financial support, she
and her son got their green cards, helping her to land a high-paying
job, paying for dental work (orthodonics for both), medical operations
for both, clothes, food, driving lessons, 2nd car, etc.  From her first
days in America, and even up to this very day, my spouse has always
praised me to everyone, as being the most generous, kind, and best lover
husband she could ever find.  I estimate that my total financial
investment was well over $120K, but the emotional investment was far
more significant.    The best news now is that I've now successfully
navigated the divorce peaceably, entirely as a Pro Per (without
attorneys), and that afterwards, we are still on speaking terms.   I
have nothing to gain from she and her son being deported back to
Ekaterinburg.  Besides, the INS will never do that, even in case of
outside affairs that lead to divorce, AFTER the INS has mailed the
notice of the green card approval. The only exception might be if you
happen to discover your wife was one of the WTC bombers or a
card-carrying member of Al-Qaeda.  

From my total GQ on the situation (I did hire an PI and got huge file of
confirmatory evidence), it appears her basic motive was for diversion,
variety and entertainment.  In other words "she just wanted to have
changes".  This came as quite a rude jolt to the nervous system.  

From this experience, plus what I have learned over the past 6 months, I
can say that I have now have my eyes open farther than ever, regarding
RW.  But I just thought the members of RWL would find it interesting to
learn that the most informative education I have received to date, (I
will give a sample later in this post), has come from reading a "real"
Russian Women's List (not this one, the one for 8000 Russian women,
located at well.com.ru, by AlexanderMokryak) .  Part of this list is in
English, but most is in Russian.  It is well worth the $20 or so to join
it and get the insider's viewpoint of how exactly how RW talk to each
other, especially about AM.  The gossip is so vitriolic that it can
clean the scales off steel plate.   I can read some Russian, so that
helps.  If you can't do the same, you can still use the free PROMT
Russian to English translator at www.translate.ru.  But it's a lot
faster if you buy their $60 translator.    

After this experience, I have revised my estimate of the likelihood of
an AM-RW marriage lasting for a lifetime, downwards from 60%, to closer
to 15%.  Most of the guys who were on the RWL list with me back in 1997,
and with my same level of exuberance, have now suffered a common fate.  
The notable fact, is that there are a remaining few who are still
successfully married, even after 3 or 4 years.  To anybody with 5 years
or more of success, my hat is off to you and with congratulations!  

I am already far aware than most, about caveats on differences in age,
appearance, interests, activity level, etc., so those among you with the
yen to offer unsolicited advice or other flames, can go ahead and fire
away, but I will only regard with credibility and respect, anyone having
5 or more years of successful marriage to his credit.  If you have less
than 4 years, you just might be in for a rude surprise yourself, one of
these days.  And if you even haven't made the first trip across the
pond, your flames would not even register on my Richter scale.

Maybe the dream dies hard, or whatever, but I am still willing to
consider trying a second time.  I accepted a kind offer from Alexander
Mokryak to place my story, and my continuing interest in RW, in his
Russian RWL list.  The story appeared on or about Oct. 20, had a caption
such which included our infamous RWL idiom "The Visa Whore".  The result
was a highly volatile churning of carp eating popcorn in 6 inches of
water for about 3 weeks thereafter, all regarding the subject of
"Foreign Marriage and Prostitution".  As I say, most of the responses
were negative, and even to point of being malicious.  To me personally,
about 50 sympathetic letters were directed, most offering to start
correspondence.  I have started correspondence with one, and we do seem
to have a high comfort level with each other so far.  This one appears
to share far more values, and is definitely not the classic RW
blonde-bombshell, scantily clad Vogue model.  

But the most telling reply I received, was one from a young woman who is
already engaged, and is expecting to depart Russia soon to join her
fiancée in Canada.  I am going to quote this verbatim, and I have
removed only her name, because of our quaint American penchant to
protect anonymity: (another cultural quirk we have, not widely shared in
Russia, by the way).  

Notice how this young woman states:  "Prostitution is a normal thing
here and isn't blamed".  Anyone who plays the AM-RW game, and does NOT
recognize that this attitude can certainly tranmute itself, even in the
best of environments, into one form or another of "infidelity" in a
marriage to an American, is being very, very naïve:

=========================
=====

SUBJECT: Family Life and Prostitution  

Dear Forrest Paul,

You're crazy, you're really very very crazy, that's it. I read your
story about your marriage with a Russian woman. Why do you think that
Russian women are more suitable for marriage than any American one? I
know nothing about American women but if to speak about traditions of
the family life in Russia you're very mistaken. I'm much younger than
you but believe me I know many things as I spent all my life in Russia.
Prostitution is a normal thing here and isn't blamed. Not just regular
prostitution that also is very popular and is blamed, but something sort
of disguised. Women are ready to live with men not because of love but
for apartment, money, job and very often for support of children. Very
often they have nothing to do except it, women here are discriminated,
couldn't get a good job, children aren't supported by fathers. It could
be marriage, it could be direct payment from men, doesn't matter. I
don't mean that all the women here are prostitutes, sometimes
prostitutes here are just men. But you have to understand this
menthality. Your ex thinks she lived with you, she was kind, tender, she
was a good wife during 4 years and so you have to pay for that. May be
she even loved you first time but it's obviously she married with you
not just because of it. People here usually don't marry because of love.
If your were a Russian man your could find it normal because you knew
you could behave in the same way with her or with somebody else. And
it's really a normal thing here when spouses after 4 years of marriage
have lovers out of home. I understand, you see advertisements that
Russian wifes are the best in the world, but once tried bad food after
good advertisement would you like to eat more? Do you understand that
the best women could be only professionals? Now I will tell you
something that will make you laugh. I got an idea to write this letter
after I had talked to my fiance on the telephone during 2 houres. He is
from Canada! I had on my tongue words "I love you much", however I was
very surprised when I pronounced them. I really love him very much but
if a woman in Russia pronounces these words it's considered as a shame
for her. To live with somebody for visa or for money isn't a shame but
to declare feelings is equal to the statement "I'm your slave, use me".
Do you understand now? "Who has feelings is weak". May be I'm not
typical for Russia, I'm scared of quitting my country, I'm an
increadibly bad housekeeper and never was going to marry without love
(because for me it could be too great pain). But I know my country, my
people and how they do. I'm going neither to deassuade you from nor to
persuade of. Your letter was published in Russian. Be very careful. I
don't mind that all our women are bad, there are many very good persons
here. But I know how it goes, you know too. All the professionals always
know your desires. They know how to catch you. I myself am a great
supporter of international marriages, Russia today isn't good for
family, only for prostitution. If I was you I never declare that I was
married with Russian and now am looking for another one, even if I'm
really mad with Russians. It's a token for cheaters that it's possible
to deceive you again. You lost 4 years of your life, your nerves, I
don't mention money, but you're still very careless. Do you like to add
anything more to the litany of your family problems? So that's it. I
wish you to be lucky.

Sincerely Yours,

To me, it was also surprising and informative to learn how RW can have a
highly fluid view of "Prostitution" (i.e. sex without love) which can
take on a variety of forms, including this woman's exact observation:

"And it's really a normal thing here when spouses after 4 years of
marriage have lovers out of home".  

In other words, even if you're willing and capable of being entirely
faithful yourself, you might not find that your Russian wife shares the
same cultural value system.  

Maybe I made the mistake of telling my wife I loved her too much.  She
apparently wanted to find some guys taller, thinner, and her own age,
who would just use her for fun and sport, just like the good old days,
back in good, old Russia.

Finally, I have realized that the "good news" about RW is that they are
just like AM: they like sex just as much as we do, maybe more.  The bad
news about RW is that they are just like AM: they like sex just as much
as we do, maybe more.  

And it is futile to bring over a red-hot-mama, and expect her to
magically transmute herself into the American version of Victorian
Virtuosity.  

It's like anything else: what you see is what you get.  That woman in a
hot short skirt, with a see-through blouse is going to turn a lot of
heads in Safeway, and a lot of American womanizers will rapidly offer
her a quickie, which she might eventually come to accept.    

In other words, most of us simply need to do a more thorough job of the
"initial due diligence", take off those romantic rose-colored glasses,
and see cultural differences for what they are.  In a nutshell, you
can't buy love, and you have to call a spade a spade.  

It sounds trite, but I've learned it's true that it also takes an
ongoing effort from both parties to keep a marriage fresh and alive.

F. Paul Wyman

... in response to Here it is......., posted by SteveD on Dec 11, 2001

This reminds me of a Russian movie that I read about.  It was very popular a long time ago.  The story is about a Russian prostitute falling in love with a foreign man that is a frequent customer of hers.  I read that many women in Russia at that time (1980s?) aspired to be like the woman in the film and marry a foreigner and find security and happiness. When I read about the film, it was also mentioned that women in Russia considered prostitution a good job because it paid well.  

I think I read it in the book "Soviet Women, Walking the Tightrope".

... in response to This reminds me of a Russian movie, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 12, 2001

fff

... in response to Here it is......., posted by SteveD on Dec 11, 2001

Good well thought out post.  You hit on my insecurities when considering Russian women as partners.   I guess you never really know until you try.

Robert D.

... in response to Here it is......., posted by SteveD on Dec 11, 2001

I think it's better for PL members to join RWL rather than posting RWL contributions here. RWL is a much different environment than PL. RWL has the same problems with trolls, hackers, and spammers just like here... at a much larger scale.

-blm

... in response to Re: I already have the full text from em..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

Granted that it is worthwhile to read both Planet Love and RWL, it is sometimes easier to cross reference from one place to another.  Perhaps it would have been better to have posted a link rather than the whole post since it is a rather long one.

(Note to Steve D: this is a general comment and not aimed at you. {smile})

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

It is at the RWL St.John's Board; may be someone with computer expertise can cut and paste it here.
It is about much more than infidelity. He discusses the AM/RW relationship in some detail. He was married for four years; according to him almost all of the AM from his time who married RW are divorced now. He also sunk in 120 G in the venture.
I have no reason to believe that he is not genuine. He appears to be an intelligent and articulate man. I hope that fate does not fall on any of us; but I would consider a must reading for anyone interested in AM/RW relationship.

Mark

... in response to It is Worth Reading, posted by mdante99 on Dec 11, 2001

ggg

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

Post a link.

... in response to I have no idea what RWL is!!!, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 11, 2001

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/russian-women-l.html

RWL is the grandaddy of all RW boards. It has been around for the longest time.

I don't bother with it much because it's boring and has too much traffic to keep up with it. It was the first to discuss scammers and in particular, Mrs. Baranova's whores.

One great thing about it is that it has searchable archives going back to at least 1995. It's a sociologists gold mine for finding info on this subject.

-blm

... in response to Re: RWL, posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001

I've seen it mentioned before but thought they were maybe talking about something else.

... in response to Thanks Barry, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 11, 2001

A few years ago I subscribed to the RWL "mail storm" to be sent to my regular e-mail address, not knowing that it would be a true "mail storm". This was the night before I left going to Ukraine. Two days later, when I finally checked my e-mail, my account was maxed-out-------nearly three hundred posts had been forwarded to my account. What a mess that was trying to sort thru to find my regular correspondances.

... in response to RWL, posted by Lynn on Dec 12, 2001

Constant email bombardment

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

ffrf

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

My ex-filipina wife had an affair three months BEFORE we were married!  

lol

PS: There ain't no guarantees in anything... except life, and that's death and taxes.

... in response to Fantastic story on RWL, posted by juio99 on Dec 10, 2001

I guess  don't know what RWL means, but I do know that AM, AW, RW, RM, German women, German men all have affairs. It is my opinion that Japanese men have the most affairs of anyone and second would be the French. Have you ever been around Japanese men. I have and I have also been around Japanese couples where their wives gave the money to their husbands to be with another woman.

My point is. what is your point. Infedility has no country, race, creed, religion or face.

Dalton

... in response to What is RWL, and do you think that AM do..., posted by Dalton B on Dec 10, 2001

....Those women all probally started in the same country as their mates. They probally had better choices amoung their native men, had better living conditions and didn't wish to do anything they could to escape a mostly dead end existence.

They probally had well developed relationships, not "love"  built upon a few emails, letters, meetings and limited time together. They probally had the same culture as the man they cheated on also, living in the same enviornment.

In short, they probally didn't marry an older guy and won't come to a new country where they will find much better pickins after they arrive. Where their beauty and "exoticness" will make them stand out and be constanly pursued by other men. Where, once here, they can take all the time in the world to build a new life with other people, if the oppurtunity arises.

My friend just had his R/W wife cheat on him with a younger guy. In fact, she may be carrying this clown's baby. Funny thing is, I thought she was incapable of doing this based on what I saw of their relationship.

You've got your head way in the sand if you think our situation bears any resemblance to what you mentioned, it's a completely different ballgame. lol..Lemme guess, you must be in love with a R/W and think she's something special to ignore these obvious circumstances. You're blind if you don't put any weight in them.

Been cheated on before by previous a woman have ye? Did ya think at the time she would never, ever, do it also? Nuff said.

... in response to What is RWL, and do you think that AM do..., posted by Dalton B on Dec 10, 2001

I disagree.  I believe the French have all of them beat hands down.

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Region