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Lately this topic (infidelity) was often discussed on this board. I want to give you one more opinion on this matter.

Recently there was a show on Russian TV where they discussed it. One professional phsychologist said: “Mistresses strengthen a family”. Crazy idea? Absurd? But let’s try to look deeper into this statement.

Let’s imagine that two 20 y.o. people got married and lived happily together for 25 years (by the way, it was very common to get married at this age 20-25 years ago and even now it’s quite common). They managed to keep love, mutual respect, friendship etc. through all these years and noone of then had ever thought about divorce. But it happened so that a 45 y.o. husband was not very much attracted sexually to his 45 y.o. wife anymore and started to look at younger girls. Is it very surprising or unusual? Wow, I imagine how you guys jump on me crying: “You are mistaken, Tootsie, 45 y.o. women are so much attractive to 45 y.o. men, we are all looking for these “babushkas”!” LOL. So if we put kidding aside this board is the best confirmation of the fact that this is more “normal” than unusual. I’m quire sure that the vast majority of you is looking for much younger women ONLY because you are attracted to them sexually. I can hardly believe that you are looking for intellectual equals, reliable partners etc. among much younger age range. No doubt that you all realize that marrying a much younger girl encreases all the risks of such marriage many times but you still go for it because of this ONLY reason. Probably because this is a very important matter for a middle-aged man.

So we go further. Let’s imagine that a man’s high “Christian moral values” (I quote WmGO) or other reasons (lack of money etc.) will keep a man away from affairs on side, he will ingnore his strong desires and keep faithfullness to his wife. Most probably he will not feel very comfortable or completely happy anymore. He will get irritated more often with things he didn’t even notice earlier, perhaps will cry at his wife and children for nothing, his “bad mood” will “happen” more often than before. And this will certainly affect phsychological comfort in his family and relationship with his wife.

And if he follows his desires and gets a mistress (sure hiding this fact from his wife) he will get sex he needs, new impressions he needs (phsychologist say it’s even more important for a man than sex) and keeps himself happy and comfortable not bringing his phsychological problems to his family. Everyone in this situation will win – a man, his wife who will not be aware of a mistress but will have a loving happy husband, always in a good mood, and a mistress (she will get money or whatever else). The main trick is not to get emotionally attached to a young mistress which seem to be rather easy for most RM.

But each coin has two sides. You can apply the same situation to a woman who is not attracted to her much older (or not much older) husband anymore.

Please don’t think that I’m for infidelity. And it wasn’t my idea that infidelity strengthens a family. But still maybe there is something true about it… What do you think?

Yours,

Tootsie

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

I asked her if she thought RW are more prone to cheating than AW. After reflecting on this for a moment, she said it was without a doubt true.

She (NOT me) said that 60% of married women cheat on their husbands, for many reasons including: husband drinks too much, husband doesn't care about appearance, husband never wants to go out and have fun with wife, husband has mistress of his own, there is nothing else to do for diversion, it's a way to get a few nice things, etc., etc.

Personally, I find it hard to believe the numbers are that high, but that's what SHE said, and I've got to believe her observations are better than mine regarding this subject.

So, if it is true, it means you (AM) have to be extra careful in choosing a RW as a mate (in comparison with an AW).

And if you disagree with me, remember, it is NOT my opinion!

Stevo

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Genesis 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh.  Matthew 19:3-9  The Pharisees also came to Jesus, tempting Him by asking Him "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"  And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and the two shall be one flesh?'  Wherefore they are no more two but one flesh.  What therefore God has joined together let not man put asunder."  They say unto Him, "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away?"  He said to them, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.  And I say to you, Whosoever shall put away his wife except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery.  And whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery."  Mark 10:12  And if a woman shall put away her husband and be married to another, she commits adultery.  1 Corinthians 6:16  What?  Know you not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body?  For two, says He, shall be one flesh.  1 Corinthians 6:18  Flee fornication.  Every sin that a man does is outside of the body, but he that commits fornication, sins against his own body.  1 Corinthians 7:2-5  Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.  Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence and likewise also the wife unto the husband.  The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband; and likewise also the husband has not power of his own body, but the wife.  Do not defraud (withhold sex from your spouse) one the other, except it be with consent for a time to give yourselves to fasting and prayer, then come together again that Satan not tempt you for your incontinency.   Galations 5:19-23  Now the works of the flesh are manifest which are these:  adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of the which I tell you before as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering (patience), gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance – against such there is no law.  Exodus 21:14  Thou (you) shall not commit adultery.  Romans 7: 2-3  For the woman which has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.  So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law so that she is no adulteress though she be married to another man.  Proverbs 5:1-21  My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow your ear to my understanding that you may regard discretion and that your lips may keep knowledge.  For the lips of a strange woman drop as a honeycomb and her mouth is smoother than oil; but her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two edged sword.  Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.  Lest you should ponder the path of life, her ways are moveable, that you can not know them.  Hear me now therefore, O you children, and depart not from the words of my mouth.  Remove your way far from her, and come not near the door of her house; lest you give your honor to others, and your years to the cruel.  Lest strangers be filled with your wealth, and your labors be in the house of a stranger.  And you mourn at the last, when your flesh and your body are consumed, and say, "How have I hated instruction and my heart despised reproof.  And have not obeyed the voice of my teachers, nor inclined my ear to them that instructed me!  I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly."  Drink waters out of your own cistern and running waters out of your own well.  Let your fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.  Let them be only your own and not strangers' with you.  Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth.  Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe.  Let her breasts satisfy you at all times and be you ravished always with her love.  And why will you, my son, be ravished with a strange woman and embrace the bosom of a stranger?  For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and He ponders all his goings.  John 8:4-5  They said to Him, "Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned (to death), but what say you?"  John 8:11 Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you, go, and sin no more.  Romans 10:11  For the scripture says, whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed.  Hebrews 10:26-31  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses; of how much sorer punishment do you suppose he be thought worthy who has trodden under foot the Son of God and has counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has done respite unto the Spirit of grace?  For we know Him that has said, "Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, “ says the Lord.  And again, “The Lord shall judge His people."  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

... in response to It is written:, posted by Ramblin on Dec 12, 2001

it is tragic that Muslims countries whom we regard as terrorists observe these laws more than so called Christian countries.It is a pity that the Muslims do not know that salvation is by grace and not by works.

... in response to Amen, posted by Cold Warrior on Dec 12, 2001

"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God." Matthew quoting Yeshua in the desert during the tempation.

One thing I would add,it is common in many Muslim countries for men to have multiple wives. There also seems to be some fetish with young girls that is quite prevalent in Muslim societies. There is much literature authored by Muslim clerics, both ancient and contemporary, that focuses on the subject of young prepubescent girls.

... in response to Amen to Both You Guys, posted by WmGo on Dec 12, 2001

Having just read their 'Book of Wisdom' translated to English,(Koran) (sp) it is also acceptable to use women or hold them as slaves. Couldnt believe what I was reading. It went on and described how to "Beat" your wife should she fall to some form of adultery, and you form up the Jury to make that decsion ! Mans laws again - and they claim the Almighty ! Just staggering stuff - and we wonder why the world is like it is. But then, we have been warned ....

... in response to In addition ++ William, posted by JohnL on Dec 13, 2001

Hey John!

Yes, no doubt that the Koran is a purely man-made self serving set of fleshly doctrine. I studied it many years ago and there can be no doubt that the god of the Quran is not the God of the Bible.

Best wishes for the Holidays!

WmGO

... in response to Re: In addition ++, posted by WmGo on Dec 13, 2001

We Orthodox have know about Islam for years. From my point of view, Islam is the satanic response to Christ. It took Mohammad 30 years of demonic teachings and war to achieve the foundation of Islam.

If you heard any of the "Bin Laden" videotape today, you would have no doubt on this. It's pretty scary stuff.

Happy Feast of Saint Herman Day!

-blm

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

A man died shortly after his wife had died.  Upon entering heaven, St. Peter said that because he had never cheated on his wife that he could have his choice of the best group of cars and pick one out.  So he picked a nice Cadillac car to be his car for him to drive around in heaven.  The next day, a friend of his saw him in his nice Cadillac and wanted to know why he was weeping so bitterly when he had a Cadillac to drive.  The man said that he had just seen his wife and she was driving a skate board.

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

The man will get past his affairs, he will get past this mid-life crisis, and once again settle down and live forever with his wife.  The 40's and early 50's are the problem time.  If you marry at 20, and die at 80 that is 60 years.  SIXTY YEARS.  If a man needs something from a younger woman for 10 of those (say 42 to 52) does that mean the wife should quit?  NO, there are 50 other years to consider.  And for sure, I would look the other way if my wife needed something else for awhile.  You have to look at the big long-term picture.  
Happy holidays,
James 2002

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie,

I have read just about all posts on the issues of infidelity and mistresses.

I find that there is a great gap between the way AM and RW/RM view this marriage arrangement.

AM/AW do not have the basic survival instinct and have progressed a long ways from having to use that type of human behavior.  Their motivations are different.  In America life is relatively easy with many basics of life taken for granted.  Take food for example.  Daily rations of food is really not considered a problem to most Americans.  If you don't have food to eat someone will have something to give you.  We abhorr someone that goes hungry and will do anything to help them.  Take lodging for example.  Most Americans have a home or place they can call home.  If you lose it somehow then someone will take you in and take care of you.  You will have a warm bed to sleep in.  If you are sick someone will help get you medical care.  We have all the necessary government programs in place to make sure Americans are healthy, well fed, and clothed.

I know that in Ukraine if you lose your apartment or don't have enough food to eat there is the fearful uncertainty that you will either freeze to death or die of starvation.  In America this would be unacceptable and make front page news.  Here in Ukraine it would hardly make a ripple.

That is why RW seek AM.  It is not motivated by the intense desire for love.  It is motivated by survival.  Love comes later.  Simple.  I fail to understand why many posting here continue to dissect the reasons RW seek AM.  You continue to wrestle with the reasons and rationalize away all arguments to support why RW seek you for marriage.  Understand this basic human behavior and you will undertstand RW.

Why do we continue to argue, tear apart, rip up, analyze, and reconstruct all the reasons RW want AM for marriage?  It is simple and easy to understand.  But if you haven't experienced a basic life of survival then it may be difficult to undertand.

Life is simple here and not complex at all.  Have food in the house and a warm bed you can call your own and you are happy.  Come live here for a year or two among the locals and you will see.  BTW, I do not live in an expat commnunity.  I live in a cottage among the locals.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Oblast

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 12, 2001

Hey I have a question.

But first of all, it is clear that women all over the world are attracted to security. It is nothing unique to Ukraine. Women everyday choose to not marry a man that they have a strong physical attraction to and accept instead the proposal of a man that offers security instead. The more security (finances etc) the more interest the available male generates among the female species as a group. He does not even have to be available.

For the ladies that read here let me acknowledge that there are women who can not be boughten. There are also men who can not be boughten by a beautiful woman but will marry the old maid because she has a heart of gold.

The issue of survival and security is reflected by the Elk herd whereby the young bucks take on the alpha male buck who leads the herd. The cows will mate with the buck who demonstrates his superiority relative to strength and bravery. The cows mate with the victorious buck without question as their hidden but so apparent motive is to increase the chances that their offspring will be as strong as possible so that survival odds are increased for their yet to be born calves. Survival is the strongest instinct such that it shapes the actions and lives of all animal life.

Homo sapiens? A spiritual being deposited in an animal body no different in many ways than that of the Elk. The animal survival instinct of the Elk is also present and mirrored in the intricate survival instincts of homo sapiens. We just think about it and find ourselves in conflict between the world of animal instincts and ideals that our minds can appreciate.

Every woman has that instinct of the cow Elk. The Elk buck that dominates demonstrates power and the cow instinctively desires to mate with the image of power. Power for homo sapiens used to be men having a strong muscular body but now is only the figure head of what power used to be and as such still is very attractive to females with this being more demonstrative in the less evolved female.  Now it is the brain - with the end result of such power being the ability to manipulate the material world that is replacing the attraction of physical brawn. Thus women are attracted to money and power.

However, more evolved men are not so interested in material goods above what is needed for a relatively comfortable life. But, the evolution of homo sapiens is not yet progressed to the point that this becomes the power that attracts the female species as a whole. So, in this un evolved world of animals striving to become spiritual beings men are still the buyers and women are the sellers. Men sell power and women buy it with beauty in so many simple terms. Of course it is not this simple as we are stepping forward in ways towards being a spiritual species and thus there are mixes of these opposites being reflected in homo sapiens.

So after only a few words we find we agree.

So, here is the question - are you saying that if you had lost your job and remained in Ukraine with not much income but enough - your fiancee would not have given you the time of day?

... in response to Hey Jimmy, posted by thesearch on Dec 12, 2001

I have said this before in other posts and that if everything remained equal concerning financial matters and future prospects between me and RM then my RW would not be interested in me.  I speak of that in the beginning of our relationship.  I don' know about now.  I believe she has grown to love me over this past year.  If I were to lose all my money and future prospects for a job then I don't really know.  Who does?  If money and materialism motivated her in the first place to start and continue a relationship with me then how much should I believe her now when she tells me that she would stay with me if I had nothing.  I think this applies to any woman AW or RW.

I knew of women with great moral character and values that stayed with their husbands through thick and thin.  Today I don't see those types of women.  My mother was one with great moral character and great values.

If a man strays from his wife to deposit his sperm in another woman just so he can satisfy some evolutionary instinct then we are in a sad state of affairs.  We are no better than the animals and don't deserve to possess the qualities of love and justice.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 12, 2001

Jimmy,

I think your comments are correct to some degree. Yes, many families are in desperate situation and women have to think how to survive and feed their kids. But I also think that guys should not forget that for some women it is their own choice to get a "sponsor" - easier money, fancy clothes, trips, etc. It is not because of desperation, but desire for a fancy life, etc. You can see it very often in USA as well. It is the same mentality...

Yes, survival instincts are very strong in Russia and Ukraine - but for one it means to struggle for good education, job, family, good education for kids, help to your parents; for others - easy money now, don't care what happens tomorrow. It is the SAME motivation and human behavior anywhere.  

You talk about warm bed and food. Probably the big difference is that like Ken, I talk about women with good education, good families, strong principles and desire to have a GOOD family. For woman in Russia now it is much easier to make money having a sponsor, but for some women it is either not acceptable or not necessary. They do want to have a good job, good house and caring husband with whom you don't have to be on "alarm" all the time and make sure his secretary is not some 17 yo ready to jump in the bed with any guy. They do not  have to struggle for food and bed, but they do not want to struggle and "fight" for faithful relationship and never be appreciated. I am sure you watched all the dynamics of family relations there.

For women like you describe it would not be any difference between American or Russian man. Except that they know that Russian man most likely would not even marry them and can dump at any time, whereas American would bring them to his country, house, family, etc.  Yes, in this case they think that love will come later (and it might never happen). Other women, like KenC's wife, Tootsie and others are not going to jump into relationship right away. They don't need sponsor either in Russia or USA.

I agree with your posts about difficult life in Ukraine. But I think sometimes people write-off very important qualities based on economic situations, cultural differences, etc.

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 12, 2001

Jimmy,
I agree with your take on an economicly challanged Ukrainian.  How does your thinking change with a much better lifestyle?  My wife came from an intact, loving and faithfull family with few economic woes.  Both parents worked good jobs.  They have a very nice flat, a car, a summer house and were never hungry.  My wife and her family have great pride in their Motherland and my wife would PREFER to live in Russia.  There are many catagories of FSU women, not just the economicly depressed.
KenC
p.s. (Her take on the fidelity issue is that a RW would be MORE faithfull to an AM than an AW because the RW would appreciate the fidelity of the AM.  She thinks that AW take it too "for granted")

... in response to Re: Re: A little more on infidelity in R..., posted by KenC on Dec 12, 2001

Ken,

I don't know much about the enconomiclly advantaged people in Ukraine.  I only see the ones that don't have it all.  The freedom that this society now has is only been realized in the last 12 years.  I think that many here are very much in disparity.  Your wife may have been very fortunate in having a higher standard of living.  Many here don't have enough to eat and certainly don't have a car to drive.  This is certainly not the norm.

I know that placing one of these women in the US environment is like taking a fish out of water and making it walk.

Many men here think that waving a visa in the face of these women will make everything alright and it just isn't so.  You have to relinquish the power that you have and give these women the benefit of the doubt and court them in their native soil to learn more about them.  Why tempt them with all these promises of a better life when it may create more difficulties for them.  I would rather have my wife love me for what I am and not what I can do for her.  Marry her in Ukraine and live here.  You will be better off.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Oblast

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie,

As usual, I very interesting post.

With my title, I am not refering to anyone here but these comments when compared to a nation if the posts below are representative of Americans in general for example..

Anyway, it just dawned on me, we American men should be the ones to have the affairs more than the Russian men. I mean you marry an AW, she decides that now she has you she does not need to take care of her body and gets fat and even tries to use that fat body as a tool of manipulation relative to sex. Now tell me, what Russian man would put up with that? Well, there are a lot of American men who do. And, they play on the fact that American men are loyal to their family (children). So, Russian men probably would laugh at many American men.

Having a mistress in Russia might work out very well. I can not comment as I am not a Russian living in Russia but, it will not work out very well here in the USA. There is simply not the acceptance for such in a hypocritical way. Why do I say hypocritical? Americans are hypocrites compared to Russians perhaps because this behavior seems to be accepted to a certain degree in Russia whereas it is not accepted in the USA and yet the infidelity rate is very high here statistics report.  

Stats suggest that our posters here represent what Americans believe in but fail to duplicate in action. What do statistics mean - there is somewhat of a problem but who knows how much is how I take it. So, we have infidelity and who knows maybe even close to what it is in Russia (I would have no idea) but, these affairs are not so on going. Many of them were only one or two encounters. These stats are based upon if one has ever been unfaithful at all.

I do not know why but I assumed the term mistress means on going. I personally have never been unfaithful in marriage which supposedly puts me in the minority by the standards of some studies. However, I feel safe in saying that people here in the USA most likely do not think that infidelity is good for the relationship, even if they are involved in such, they just do it for selfish reasons - perhaps because life gets dull - who knows - but they most likely acknowledge that it is not healthy and deep down wish they did not seem to feel the need for it. Infidelity in the USA more likely is higher than the divorce rate but what does that mean. I do not think that it means that it keeps the marriage together. I think that Russian psychologist must have had a mistress That is what me thinks.:))))))

But back to another aspect of your post about most men here who are seeking a woman who is younger are most likely not doing it for anything other than a younger body. Bingo, if any guy tells you different, he is a liar or stupid. Stupid? -- Yes because a younger woman brings on challenges that one your own age inherently does not. So, if it is not for the more attractive body what could it be? You are dead correct. Now the safest woman would be a woman about 80 years or older but, you know I do not think that there will be too many takers who are in their fifties.

If I was happily married for twenty years I would never consider dumping my wife for a young new model. I could not have a mistress or an affair and face a woman that I loved either. I am stuck in fidelity whether I like it or not. It would have to be me and her till the end.

However, with me being single that is a whole different story. With the divorce rate as high as it is telling you point blank that there are no guarantees - why should I marry someone my own age if I can attract younger?
I, like CFonde, have to have a mental connection above all. So, this makes it a little harder to find the total package when looking at younger women. So what, the older I get the better the situation gets actually.

I will admit that I used to be interested in 15 year old girls. But, one must understand that I was 15 to 16 years old when that was the case. Now, to me 37 is like 15 years old. The older you get the more mature and wise your version of the 15 year old gets. Besides, if I marry a 37 year old, I will never have to deal with my wife being too old for me. So, as long as I choose wisely among the younger crowd to avoid the issues a younger bride can bring, it will never be an issue.  

And, I will suggest that some posters really do not know how they will feel about all of this until they are older. I am not saying that they would cheat on their wives just because she has gotten old or does not want sex but, they do not know how they would choose under the circumstances of being single being older until they add a few years to their life span. Now, CFonde is pretty open about it saying ask me when I am 62. MarkInTx says his x-wife at 40 still is very sexy. Dang, I hope so- she is only 40. When she is 57 and you compare her to a 40 year old you might not be singing the same tune about your x compared to the younger women - and DR at age 27 well need I say more.

However, at all ages here who have posted, we all agree that infidelity is not what we want to be a part of our future. We want one woman to cherish, to love and be faithful to and vice versa. I think is safe to say that this is what most American men want and it is reasonable to say that more American men are hypocrites than their Russian men counterpart is. So, the Russian men win on one count but we actually think that it is losing by default on the issue. Evidently we as a group statistically fail when we try whereas wirh Russian men many fail to even try to maintain fidelity.

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Dear Sir,

The story sounds just about right. The only thing is that it has no meaning, gives no perspectives. The reason why I say this, is because you apply too much rationalism to love issues. I always thought that love is a feeling that brings you happiness, a desire to live and give love, a desire to be only with one particular person, who you love more than life. I also thought that marriage as such is a mutual act of two people who are in love, when a Father gives a blessing to a couple, this marriage is concluded in heavens. I always thought that this is the only right way it is supposed to be, if you want to be happy in your marriage. What you say, states totally the opposite. You laugh at women in their 40's, by saying that you are not looking for these "BABUSHKAS", believe me it's one of the worst jokes I've heard since I got into this affairs. All I can say is that, if you don't believe in love, if you don't want to give, if you only want to take, if you are not honest with yourself, you`ll never ever be happy. You can have fun, but at the end, you`ll realize that it was just a waste of time, playing games.
A woman who is in love, gives you everything, all the feelings she has inside, isn't it a good reason to be willing to make her happy, give her what you have inside, if you have anything to share, of course.
You tend to show the depth of your thinking, your psychological skills, but will this thinking bring you love, I guess not, because you can not predict love, you can not create it. It's a gift from God.
Try to imagine yourself talking to God, telling him:
"Oh, God, here is my order for some fresh impressions, I want to fall in love, she has to be in her early 20's, she has to be a blond with blue eyes, she has to have a cute and innocent face, and a tight body, and I want her to fall in love with me, how soon can I get it, I want it now."
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it, but I just basically described your idea in simple terms.
You say that RM usually have a mistress, that it's easy for us not to get attached to a woman, generally speaking - RM have no respect for women. I wonder how many men have you met in Russia or Ukraine??? How do you know how RM treat women? What makes me wonder is how can you say anything about Russian or Ukrainian people, their behavior, their manners, character, if you are not really familiar with them. This is all based on books, and rumors I guess.

Believe me, the main idea of the post is not to insult you, even though you may think that way at some point, but to show you, that you deal with living people, who have feelings and soul, just as you do. Yes, life here is challenging, but it is everywhere else in the world. Sometimes, it gets a little harder over here, and people forget about who they are, and what they're after. Sooner or later many of them will "wake up", and understand that happiness can not be bought, it's work, it's hard work, and the major part of this work has to be done within a person. Know thyself, try to understand your feelings, and open yourself to love, treat people the way you want to be treated, and the world will reflect to it.

I really hope that you`ll get the idea and don't get upset. I want to apologize in advance, just in case if you find some of the parts of this message offensive towards yourself. I really didn't mean it.

With best wishes,
Rostick.

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Rostick on Dec 11, 2001

I don't remember when I laughed so long last.:)

And I especially thank you for defending "babushkas" from a "babushka". It's nice to know that somebody can defend us so nice...

Thanks once again.

Tootsie

... in response to Thank you so much for your post, posted by Tootsie on Dec 12, 2001

Dear Tootsie,

I`m terribly sorry if my post seemed rude to you.
I have to admit that emotions take over me when I hear about something that I consider to be wrong, in terms of relations, or anything else.
I said what I thought.

By the way I also like to make people laugh, because positive emotions make their life longer, and I really hope that it's a happy life.

With best wishes,
Rostick.

... in response to Thank you so much for your post, posted by Tootsie on Dec 12, 2001

I've met a few "babushkas" when in Russia. I never really considered you as one of them. You just gave me a good laugh about that. Yes, you are a little more "experienced". But hardly a babushka.

Because you helped me I talked about you with my lady from Volgograd. She was with me several times when I sent you e-mails from there. She was actually jealous of you. Infidelity does seem to be a common fear among the ladies I know over there. My girlfriend thought that maybe you were "the other woman". She had a hard time believing that I only went to Russia to meet her. The only reason that she started to believe me was because you are older than I am. RM don't usually choose older women as mistresses.

Regards,
Zink

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Rostick on Dec 11, 2001

...How the heck are ya? lol..I assure you that Tootsie
"knows" all about how R/M treat women.

Anyway, your post reflects the kind, gentle soul I remember so well through that vodka induced haze. Hope all is going OK for you.

Don't kill me, but I still speak with Vika sometimes.
lol.. who knows, you may see me again for another try at it.

Hey, how's my Lufthansa girl? I'm still waiting for her :-)

Take care.....

... in response to Re: A little more on infidelity in Russi..., posted by Rostick on Dec 11, 2001

Calm down Rostick. This is not Tootsie's point of view.She was referring to a talk show on Russian TV.Anyway thank you for another good post.

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

As a 42 y.o. male, I don't find much too appealing about substantially younger women. My personal criteria is no less than 32 years old (10 years my junior), but even that's pushing it a little. Presently, I've been dating a 46 year old AW, and in my opinion, there's nothing better than a slightly more mature woman. The RW I've presently been communicating with, and have visited this past August is 40.

  What's more important for me, I'm finding as I get older, is that the relationship has to work in my mind first & foremost, and not just from a physical standpoint. It seems to me that no matter how beautiful or attractive I find a woman, if I'm not attracted to her mind first, my attraction for her will not be held.

  I've turned down & continue to rebuff opportunities from women in their mid to late 20's. This just isn't what I'm personally looking for. Of course, on the other hand, at 42, I consider myself to be at the prime of my life, and wouldn't mind freezing myself forever at this age. If & when I'm 62, who knows what my viewpoint(s) will be. Stick around for the next 20 years, and I'll get back to you on that one!

 

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

with your position. Moreover, more often than not, the non-straying spouse knows of the affair and chooses for one reason or another not to 'make a scene'.
This leads to a diminishing of trust with the 'straying' partner, a lowering of the self-esteem of the 'betrayed' partner, and a gradual disintigration of a relationship.
The "acceptance" is most often not 'condonance' but actually a wilful choice made from economic circumstances.
Infidelity (especially repeated infidelity) can do nothing but harm any relationship - look to the "swingers" who have experienced relationship "crashes" after the novelty has worn off.
If, on the other hand, the relationship was 'built upon' rather than 'enhanced by' the physical aspects of the relationship, you may be correct.

... in response to I Disagree...., posted by Del on Dec 11, 2001

1

... in response to Del, this is NOT Tootsie's position. Re ..., posted by juio99 on Dec 11, 2001

"But still maybe there is something true about it".

... in response to Look to......, posted by Del on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie is not for her man having a mistress. Her follow up post under RW's post makes that clear.

I have a total different call on this. Tootsie simply worded herself in such a manner so as to find out what us American and otherwise men really think about this.

Things were worded specifically this way. Why did she do this? Why does she want to know how guys stand on this issue?

... in response to You all fell for it me thinks, posted by thesearch on Dec 11, 2001

...because she *may* marry an American man in the not so distant future.

lol...It's in her best interests to know thy enemy.

... in response to You all fell for it me thinks, posted by thesearch on Dec 11, 2001

Because she knows that, if every cockhold, in the world, had a bell around his neck, we could not hear ourselves
talk anywhere.
It is a fact of life, perhaps some of us should read or re-read Camus  "The women, who cheated on her husband."
In her case it was with the sun.

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie,

you know harem would be even better idea... :) After all, he probably would get tired of  mistress too and will want something knew for self-esteem. I can only imagine how much stronger it will make the marriage!!!

On a serious note, and to add something to the ideas you posted - I have to disagree with you. My first reaction was that you gonna be kidding. I definitely do not think it is mistress who saves the marriage. If it IS the case it's either wife or husband, depending on situation who agrees to forgive/forget and move on. But everything has its price and sooner or later it all will surface again. It is not something to be proud of and yes, many women in Russia are facing it and have to think it is normal as they do not have any choices.

The same as "true love" topic it is a discussion which will never come to any conclusion, so I am not going to post much. I just don't want people to think that the idea of infidelity being good to marriage is something accepted by all Russian women, the same way as that crazy idea about prositution. Unfortunately, people with poor values have louder voices and all that "junk" comes flying around everywhere. I guess people who do have strong believes, caring families and morales, just keep it to themselves as they know it is something to value and not to share in public.

Sincerely,

Russian WIfe

... in response to infidelity, posted by RW on Dec 11, 2001


or “In quite lake there are devils”:).

You know, although you have extremely low voice I don’t envy your husband if one day he decides to stray :).

As for my personal opinion I don’t know whether infidelity can strengthen a family or not but if my husband (if I ever get married) decides to stray and I learn it I know for sure that after that he will have to spend lots of money to strengthen his health and I hardly believe he will ever manage to recover it completely. LOL.

Relax and take care,

Tootsie

... in response to infidelity, posted by RW on Dec 11, 2001

That was an excellent post RW. I particularly agree with you about the people "with poor values and louder voices." While I don't care to stand in judgement on anyone - I am often aghast when I see some of the typical 'guests' on shows like Jerry Springer and others (I see them so seldom I cannot recall the names - isn't there a Ricky Lake or something like that also? --smile--).

When I see these programs, I always feel embarrassed for these people - yet they obviously feel no shame nor self-consciousness about putting on a public display some of the most abhorrent acts that I can imagine.

I don't know where these people come from, but it makes me feel ashamed to think they are from the same country, cities, schools, etc. that I am from.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to infidelity, posted by RW on Dec 11, 2001

She never said she agreed with these ideas.  She is just telling what she heard on a TV show.  At the end of her post, she even repeated again that she was not for infidelity.

JR

... in response to Why are you 'disagreeing with Tootsie', posted by juio99 on Dec 11, 2001

"But still maybe there is something true about it… What do you think?".....

That was the comment I disagreed to. I don't think there is anything true to it. That's all.

... in response to Re: Why are you 'disagreeing with Tootsi..., posted by RW on Dec 11, 2001

Thanks for your clarification.  Sorry to have 'jumped' on you.   JR

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie, you said, "new impressions he needs (phsychologist say it’s even more important for a man than sex)."

Sorry, but I don't understand the definition you are using here for 'impressions.'  Can you furnish a synonym or give more about the context so that I may ascertain what is meant by 'impressions' in this particular case?

If it is something that is 'important for a man' I want to be sure I am getting some of it!!

JR

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

For once, Tootsie... I can't agree with what you said.

In fact, I found it hard to agree with almost anything in the post (Highly unusual....)

First off, I find myself being attracted to older women as each year passes. If I could find an attractive woman my age with the values I think are important -- you'd better believe I would be happy settling down with her.

In fact, one of the things about Bill Clinton's affair with Monica that amazed me most was that Monica was just a couple of years older than his own daughter! I found that disusting. True, my daughter is only eight. But when she is sixteen, I doubt I will be tempted to shack up with an 18 year old...

My ex-wife is 6 months younger than I am. I still think she is one of the sexiest women I have ever met. Yes, her skin shows the signs of a 40 year old.. and she mothered 2 children... but she works out every day, and has a certain something that always turned my head whenever she walked into a room.

As for affairs helping marriages -- an affair will only help a marriage if it was a marriage that was based purely on sex-appeal, and physical attraction.

But, a marriage that is that shallow is not worth having.

If I need an affair (or my wife does) to "save" a marriage... I have to wonder what I am saving...

IMHO

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

Tootsie,

The points you raised are certainly worth merit. But in actuality, it would be a very difficult balance to maintain. Consider these points:

If the man truly is a family man and really loves his wife, he may cheat on her for a while, but eventually guilt will set in and problems will develop.

If the love between husband and wife has grown weaker as a result of his loss of sexual appetite for her, and he finds a good partner for a mistriss, eventually he will want to spend more and more time with his mistriss. Sex will convert to love, or the illusion of love, and he will want a divorce.

If the man wants to keep his family intact and continues to cheat for purely sexual reasons, eventually he will make a mistake and his wife will suspect he is having an affair. He may even get caught or be seen by a mutual friend.

I believe the ONLY time a mistriss on the side will work is if the man is so skilled at multitasking that he can live two separate lives and keep them from intermingling with each other and remain emotionally detached from his mistriss. Even then this will soon prove unsatisfying for the mistress because of the inevitable desire for growth in the relationship.

And, speaking from practical experience, in my first marriage I had a much stronger sexual appetite than my wife. She would refuse to have sex with me unless she herself wanted it, which was rare. This led to arguments and bad feelings, a deteriorating marriage. I got real lucky and found a younger woman who was willing to have sex with me anytime I wanted with no strings attached. At first, this seemed to be the cure for the problem. I was getting all the sex I needed and my family was staying together. This went on for about 2 years. I remember this very clearly. One evening I was sitting down at the dinner table with my wife and two children. Suddenly I was gripped by the idea that, despite how this picture looked, there was something wrong with the picture, and it was me. I came to feel like I didn't belong there. A short time later I filed for divorce, and my mistriss remained just that, a mistriss. Nothing more serious ever developed with her.

In short, I don't think cheating or keeping a mistress is ever a good idea.

... in response to Re: Consider this..., posted by JohnG on Dec 11, 2001

As for me, I have never cheated on a woman, and never will. I was married to a woman for 5 and a half years that was just as you say, no sex unless she wanted it. She cheated on me in the end. I dumped her ass on the spot. 6 years now and I can put it behind me, she killed 11 years of my life, any man or woman who cheats on their other half is a fool looking for a way out of the marriage.

RayInAz

... in response to A little more on infidelity in Russia, posted by Tootsie on Dec 11, 2001

I think the situation, as you present it, is both short-sighted and narrow-minded.  Unless both parties are willing to play the 'game of infidelity' equally and with full knowledge, this would never work.  Even with full knowledge, if you truly love someone how do you justify sharing them?  

Now, if such a perverted situation were to occur, and I wouldn't put it past some of those crazies in SoCal (just kidding), then it wouldn't be much of a marriage, now would it?  A marriage hinged upon bilaterally pardoned and permissive infidelity is more of a marriage of convenience...which isn't a 'marriage' at all.

As I see it, if a marriage isn't working on a certain level, you have to meet with your partner to find the right solution together.  If you can't find the solution together and are in serious need of an arbiter, then perhaps you and your spouse were a bit careless at some point(s) in your marriage.  With reference to carelessness, in this view, the decision to indulge in extramarital affairs are then somewhat 'logical' or predictable...because an affair would be one of the expected destinations for careless people.  My two cents.

Cheers...
DR

P.S., Tootsie, you always provide stimulating topics.  Good job!