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F. Paul Wyman posted a follow up message on RWL in response to several questions.  He tells how he spent the $120,000 on his RW and her family over the 4 years.  He also tell how the RW swore to him that she was not bothered by their age differences prior to the marriage, but a few years into the marriage she started calling him an 'old man.'

... in response to Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by juio99 on Dec 13, 2001

I do not know where to find RWL. What ages we talking about here?

... in response to Re: Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

I think that's it, if he was refering to Wyman's story.

... in response to 58,33, posted by Bob S. on Dec 13, 2001

I have heard all the arguments over the couple years I have been reading here.
    It boils down to one thing guys whether you want to believe it or not. If you were 33 would you want to be with someone who is 58.
    In 90% of the cases I would have to say that the younger partner has a reason for being with the older partner other than love.
    I would concede that there may be 10% that believe they love the older partner. I would suggest that that 10% suffers from conditions in their childhood which make them believe that they in fact do love the older person. In all actuality, they have a problem.
    We can talk ourselves into thinking that  a much younger woman will want to be with us but in most cases it is simply not so.
    I wish that wasn't the way it is but to think otherwise is simply fooling ourselves.

                        Rod

... in response to Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by juio99 on Dec 13, 2001

What you think she just woke up one day and told him this?  I am sure he knew something way before the day she called him an old man.  We can choose to play the game or search for a true love without being shallow and looking for arm candy or someone out of our league.  I know guys that want to play the game and mess around out of their league; they take a carefree attitude, if the run they run start again.  There is really nothing wrong with this, I am sure they will have some good times and bad.  The guy is crying about something he himself created.  No one scammed this guy he let it happen.
Ryan

... in response to This is what happens when you force your..., posted by Ryan on Dec 13, 2001

Yes he let it happen but she most likely told him it would not happen or was not an issue so you have to assume that all of these ladies are liars - will  marry you for security and the green card. Essentially that is what your post is saying.

I would suspect that your reaction would be - that is not true at all - it is about him pushing the limits. I know what you meant Ryan by your post and I know you did not mean such. However I just want to use it to start a discussion about shades of grey and how they can be related to the blacks and whites of all of this. This post is not directed at you at all.

Of course the likely hood of having this happening increases as the age span does - however, If we take it a bit further hopefully my point becomes clear as to what I am trying to say here. You may say - well you have to be reasonable and this guy was not being reasonable.

Ok, if we are going to be reasonable then lets not be prejudice about this - lets be honest - let's not delude ourselves. For example - look at Jimmy's posts - the words from a man who has been living in Ukraine for some time - reasonable also entails acknowledging that because of the economic plight of many areas of the FSU, many women view security as their primary issue and love for you may NOT be the primary issue plain and simple.

You are the ticket - while in her mind she is saying to herself - maybe I can learn to love him. Do you really think she will tell you that you are not really her type if such is the case? However, she is willing to proceed down the K-1 path for that security. Besides once she is here, if it does not work to her satisfaction after two years, she is where there are a lot of single men who can provide security. So, she can choose someone she really wants and not give up security.

Now, this could be viewed as a negative post. It could also said that this has been hashed over many times. It is the kind of stuff that trolls tell us is the case every time and that we are stupid.

I think that there are probably many cases where an FSU woman married an American guy that was not exactly what she wanted relative to a husband but after two years felt close enough that leaving him is not something she is thinking about. However, I would bet that six months into the relationship, with her seeing all of the nice eligible men she might have moments when she thinks maybe she could have done better.  

This is simply a realistic post and yes it has been hashed over before but, I bet there is someone here who needs a reminder.

Just as you say this guy let it happen - I tell you the guy who did not think that he was pushing the limits but gets burned also let it happen. And, everyone here - EVERYONE HERE (with  few exceptions) is pushing the limits - it is only about degree. No one is going over there to bring back a woman that is the same quality that they can get at home period. Anyone who would do this is doing it the hard way without any reward for doing such. It would not make any sense.

Why bring this up, because just as this gentleman let this happen - one can point the finger at him because of a large age difference and somehow feel safe in some form of complacency merely because you compare yourself to him and say I am being more realistic.

Time and time again, I see posts here that indicate to me that many ignore red flags or rationalize them away because she is not 20 years younger but only five or ten years younger. Forget the fact that she just happens to be twice as attractive as anything you have ever dated back home.

Am I opposed to this process of going to the FSU. Heck no, there are so many beautiful women over there. For a guy who wants the best he can get in a spouse - looking to the FSU is a way to possibly accomplish such with greater certainty of success than if he kept looking in his own back yard. I firmly believe this.

I simply realize that anyone can get deluded and an easy way to not examine yourself is to point to a case like this and say to yourself I am being reasonable - perhaps even to the point of not seeing warnings yourself.

Newbies need be reminded of these issues over and over. I know that when I first got into this, I was naive, vulnerable and only through posts like this from those more experienced than me did I finally gain a more balanced perspective. I had to be reminded several times before it really settled in.

One just has to understand that women will lie to you, and a guy who thinks he is in love or has a mission is very vulnerable to not seeing a woman's actions that are trying to reveal the truth to him and he refuses to see them for what they are. He can even get mad when someone points them out to him.  I see many posts whereby it appears that the guy is trying to rationalize away red flags. This is easy to do because communication issues can create false red flags. I know this has happened to me several times and I actually reacted as though they were red flags and caused damage because of my actions.

So all of this is about a balancing act of recognizing a red flag and knowing how and when to act and not being paranoid about red flags or being scammed.

Because if you are at one end of the spectrum relative to being too trusting or the other of being too paranoid you greatly increase your odds of having problems or if you vacillate from one end to the other you will create problems also. I remember in the early days I would be more paranoid when I would read posts about scammers and then I would be too trusting when I would read the wonderful posts.

In other words, if you get too hung up on scammers and red flags you can damage a relationship with a perfectly honest woman but do not be gullable either and trust what she says when the actions do not seem to match the words.

My protocol on red flags is do not react right away. Wait and watch for other signs. Assume that you could be wrong about her however act as though you trust her totally. When you come from this dichotomy IMHO you allow the truth to become evident.

When you are in doubt pose the question to the board - the responses will get you to think and perhaps get a different perspective. I do not mean to project that I know everything. I do not, or I would not be here. I just have my personal opinions some correct and some not so correct. I can say that the correctness of my opinions has been impacted very favorably from many wise words that others have posted. And, this post is more directed at Newbies for the mere purpose of promoting contemplation of the venture that they are starting.

Good luck to everyone

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

Since you referred to me in your post I would like to comment.

I am 56 years old and an expat living in Ukraine for over a year now as many may know.  I live among the locals and a mix of international expats from France, Germany, UK, and US. I see the interest young women show us.  I see how I can attract a young 18 y.o. that is barely an adult.  I see RM and what they look like and what they have to offer.  I see young mistresses that are involved with married RM.  I have gone to bars and discos frequented by expats and watched beautiful young RW flock there every night of the week to put themselves on display in hopes of attracting one of us.

Most of those girls can't afford a peeva yet save their money to pay the cover charge to have a chance at an expat.

This is a very competitive society for a good man that can give a woman a home and security.  Most RM cannot do that.  They don't make enough money.  Will a young woman hook up with an older man twice her age to attain security and money?  I honestly think many will.

But I lived in the US most of my life and know that I barely get a look from any woman that age.  There is not that much competition in the US for men that can give a woman security and money.  They can earn it themselves.

If you really want a young sweet beautiful girl and that's the desire of your life then move to this country and live here and eliminate your competition.  Because your competition is not the RM but those young, rich, studs back home and the American dream.  Don't kid yourself into believing that she will love you from her heart and not notice all those hard bodied, rich, young studs back home.  Get real!

We all don't want to age but a young girls perception of you will change when the competition starts.  There are plenty of beautiful +40 years RW to be had.  Just waiting for a good man.  Why increase the risk of losing money and assets for the sake of having a young girl as a wife?  Not to mention the emotional pain added to it.

I have stated it over and over again.  Survial in this harsh environment and society is their motivation.  Phyiscal attraction to your middleaged body is not a real factor.  Love may come later if you give it time to develop before offering marriage and a visa to the US.

How in the world can some young 25 yo profess undying love for me after just a two week meeting?  Many AM get their thinking in the wrong head and the other head unscrewed.

I have lived with a 40 yo RW for over a year now and she recently moved to her own apartment.  I will return to the US in Feb and then wait for a period of time before coming back.  I think I need to clear my head and she has to evaluate herself also.  If she is still here when I get back and everything has worked out between us then I will consider bringing her home to the US.  We are engaged and have the hope of marriage together.  But I think time is the great revealer of truth.  For me and for her.  We will see.  I have too much to lose and no time to recover.  Soon I will be a senior citizen and will live on limited income.  I can't be paying out thousands of my hard earned money to a ex-wife that I married for the sake of beauty.

I have five daughters that I have to think about first.  They deserve my assets and I need to protect them and not throw my money away on a risky venture.

Just some thoughts and reflections on myself.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Oblast

... in response to Re: Comment for Newbies or La La Land pe..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 14, 2001

Hi Jimmy,
I totally agree with you about the competition.  The ladies I dated in Ukraine were much younger than I and although I can ocassionally attract ladies just as young here, there is a lot of competition for the young ladies here.  Whereas you say, over there the competition is for the men that can provide security.  So your solution is for me to move there and that will solve the problem of the young lady that I end up with finding too many rich, handsome, studs making her offers.  And I agree with you that it would solve that problem very well because I was amazed at the young beauties I was attracting just walking down the street.  However, this is trading one problem for several more problems.  Following your advice solves this competition problem and gives me more opportunities with the young ladies but what about the language?  What about getting a decent job there?  What about breathing clean air and not having those darn cigarette smokers everywhere?  I have been enjoying California's decade or so laws that prohibit smoking in restaurants, the work place, and now even in bars and discos, it's great!  What about the corruption and getting robbed by the police?  What about the high crime in general there?  What about the sorry looking buildings? Well mostly just the language, job, and smoking make it not of interest to me, although like you said, the high quality and quantity of ladies and the low quantity of male competition did make me think about it.

... in response to Re: Comment for Newbies or La La Land pe..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 14, 2001

I feel in some groups-ie eastern europeans, being a good provider is more important that that chemical reaction called love.................yes we love to be loved and loved to be fukked but when it comes down to it-it I have seen these people to be much more pragmatic. I have a feeling it is from forced atheism and cultural reality-they are forced to look at what is real and not some eye in teh sky faith or fairy tale. My wife is so pragmatic-I had to really break it down to keep up with her. Man I was much more idealistic and she sucks the helium right out-and I do not even buy into the wholel emotional/love/ god tour. So, I feel that these women are a little more deep emotionally and secure, but you cannot hate them for wanting a good life-why are we there? to find a lovely wife..........but for me..........I was never looking for a wife or love-just a friend who wanted to travel..........I found love, partnership and fulfillment.............not a bad deal.
Joe

... in response to Re: Comment for Newbies or La La Land pe..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 14, 2001

1

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

.....well said indeed.

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

I would like to add that men looking that are not truthful with their new friends will always get burned in the long run.  We are American men most of us have been brought up in a capitalist atmosphere.  We are all little sales men when we date American women.  I was once told that to get good American women you have to be like an actor or a salesman in order to get their interest (T.V.)  We exaggerate what we have we talk about how we live in a positive was we tell these women what we think they want to here because we want to get their attention.  Why because we think we have competitions well we probably do there and over here.  Then when we have it and get them into the day to day they freak and come up with words that we don’t want to here and find offensive.  My feeling is that the men that win in love are the simple men that know themselves enough in this society that prevail to the end.  We present ourselves as responsible MEN we do not dwell on material things that can be seen as being that what we are not.  It is about being upfront in the beginning or near to it.  It is about looking in the mirror and being true to yourself…  

Ok not I have to find that poem that my grandmother gave me when I graduated college.  (God bless her..  That took me way to long to find)

The Man in the Glass

When you get what you want in your struggle for self and the world makes you king for a day.  Just go to the mirror and look at yourself and see what THAT man has to say.

For it isn’t your father or mother or wife whose judgment you must pass.  The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life is the one staring back from the glass.

Some people might think you’re a straight-shootin’ chum and call you a wonderful guy.  But the man in the glass says you’re only a bum if you can’t look him straight in the eye.

He’s the fellow to please, never mind all the rest for he’s with you clear to the end and you’ve passed your most dangerous test, if the guy in the glass is your friend.

You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years and get pats on the back as you pass.  But your final reward will be the heartache and tears if you’ve cheated the man in the glass.

Ryan……………..

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

dfgj

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

Excellent post.

... in response to Comment for Newbies or La La Land people, posted by thesearch on Dec 13, 2001

n/t.

... in response to Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by juio99 on Dec 13, 2001

ggg

... in response to Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by juio99 on Dec 13, 2001

That is what my grandma calls my grandpa.............
I have a sad story too. You wish to here it? Life has treated me so badly and everyone has taken advantage of me and I am a 40+ year old man and boo hoo boo hoo and it is not my fault and waaaaaa.
Come on-we are kids here.
Schopa

... in response to Fantastic Story on RWL - Part 2, posted by juio99 on Dec 13, 2001

That is what my grandma calls my grandpa.............
I have a sad story too. You wish to here it? Life has treated me so badly and everyone has taken advantage of me and I am a 40+ year old man and boo hoo boo hoo and it is not my fault and waaaaaa.
Come on-we are kids here.
Schopa