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Well, I don’t think that anybody will argue that true love is strong enough reason for marriage. But I bet that many people just don’t realize what true love is.

You are corresponding with a girl and your correspondence is great. You get excited when you get even a short message from her and much disappointed if you don’t find anything from her in your e-mail box or find out the messages you were getting were from other people. You think about her day and night and often dream how happy you will be together. Each time you think about her your heart starts to beat more rapidly and you cannot wait to meet her. Sometimes it seems to you that you will die from impatience and even an hour is too long time for waiting. You are ready to give several years of your life in order to approach the day of your meeting. You are sure she is the best girl in the world. Is it love? Nope.

You meet a girl in person and since that time you cannot think of anything else than to be with her. Hours spent with her seem to be the best and happiest time in your life and when you part you get upset and can’t wait to see her again. Before the date you look at your watch every minute and it seems to you that time stopped or goes very slowly. You are full of energy and you can stay awake much longer than before you met her. You never get tired if you are with her. Is it love? Nope.

Phsychologists call it “sexual excitement”, “strong chemistry”, “romantic feelings” etc. but it’s not true love. Can such feelings grow up into true love? Sure. But it needs time. MUCH time.

Unfortunately in this overseas relationship long time is something you can hardly afford. If she lived in the next street you could just live together for a couple of years and see whether your feelings are serious or not. But… Sex by e-mail and telephone is something you hardly like very much. And not very many of you have the opportunity to travel back and forth often. So it seems to you that K-1 process and getting her to the US is the best solution. In my opinion you choose the easiest (but not the best) and very risky solution to this problem. And I’m sure it’s a big mistake which encreases all the risks many time not to take at least 3 months period and to get married earlier.

What would I suggest? Take your time (I know that I’m not the first on this board who gives this advice). Travel back and forth as often as it’s possible. If the main problem of it is financial try to reduce the expenses for your trip. Travel when the prices for the flight tickets are low (in summer period prices for the flight tickets, hotels etc. are at least twice higher). Talk to your girlfriend, explain her your financial problems and ask her to help you. If she is interested in you she will find you a cheap hotel (even in Moscow there are plenty of hotels for $10 per night!) or flat and will not insist on dining out often or something like that. You know that many people both in Russia and Ukraine live for $100 a month and not starve, therefore if priority of you both is to learn each other better you can even save money on this trip (when I was in San Diego my boyfriend spent at least $100 per day even if we didn’t go out but maybe it’s just “expensive California”?).

If your problem is time it’s also possible to solve it. As we say in Russia “if there is a desire one looks for opportunity, if there is no desire one looks for a reason”. There are many holidays in the US and I’m sure you can always agree with your boss and add a couple of days to these holidays. Come for a week, at least for a long week-end. I’m sure it’s possible.

If the fact that “it’s cold in Russia in winter” or “I would never stay in a $10 hotel” makes you take a decision to go through K-1 instead of learning each other better than I doubt your common sense.

Good luck to you,

Tootsie

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

It takes a weekend just to get there unless you take Aeroflot and even then it takes a weekend to go there and back.

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

whose RW suggested she could find him a hotel room, to run away as fast as can be.  Especially in the situation Tootsie is describing here where the visit is not the first time together.  If after a minimum time together, or certainly on a second visit, the lady or guy cannot feel safe with the other person in a house or apartment, then I would say, forget it.

JR

... in response to Assuming we are all adults here, I would..., posted by juio99 on Dec 5, 2001

n/t

... in response to Assuming we are all adults here, I would..., posted by juio99 on Dec 5, 2001

I do not think she meant it as you took it. I took it as only a money issue and finding the lowest cost and not about trust intentions etc.

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

I wish it was that easy....

You can spend all the time in the world with that special person and NEVER be ready for commitment, you can get married after couple of months and spend fifty years married happily after. As a matter of fact, the couple who introduced me and my husband celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary couple years ago. They got married after just couple months of dating. And yes, they are American. And no, they did not live together before the wedding.

IMHO, it's only after the wedding that you learn all the "wonderful" things about your spouse (in a good AND sarcastic way at the same time). It is day-to-day things, as well as serious problems which bring you together OR make you fall apart. It depends on soooooo many different little things and major commitments that I don't even want to go into that.

It might sound VERY strange coming from the woman - but YES, true love is very important, but it is not the major thing in the relationship - it is only a first brick in the foundation of a good relationship. THere are so many more needed to make that foundation stay for years and go without cracking...... IF it is ONLY love - your relationship will look like a pyramid turned upside down and sooner or later it will simply collapse... What are other "bricks"? - compatible and VERY good sex life, common interests, friendship, ability to compromise, ability to learn and grow together (spiritually, professionally, emotionally, etc) and so many-many more that you have to write a book and not a single post on the board...

Overall, Tootsie, I think it is a very good post, but it's just a tip of the iceberg... The guy can take all the precaution and freeze himself to death in $10 hotel in Moscow, but if the girl does not want to make relationship to work - it all will be in vain...

From my observation and experience, FWIW - you don't have to sucrifice and "suffer" through beginning of relationship. If it meant to be and suppose to work out - it will do so. If it has too much weird and goofy things going on - don't try to "fix" it or explain with "cultural" differencies and "it will work out later" explanation - it just ain't working. Move on.... Does it make sense? Hope I made myself clear :)))

All the best,

Russian Wife

... in response to I wish I knew the answer....., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

for all seeking love and marriage - domestic or foreign. Tootsie's point about the man spending as much time as possible with the "foreign" woman is also a good one.

Good post RW.

... in response to I wish I knew the answer....., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

to Shakespeare,  who had a little handle on the thing called love.  But,  one thing is sure,  you know when you got it...and you know when you don't.  Love?  Adds some dimension to your life and a little spring to your step.

... in response to I wish I knew the answer....., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001


Lack of surprises!:)

It's not my words but I agree with them completely. If you learn too many "wonderful" things about your spouse after the marriage you got married too early. It's my opinion.

Certainly people who get married after short time of dating can be happy for many years. My parents got married after a couple of weeks and didn't live together before marriage but were very happy for about 20 years until my father died. But unfortunately for each "happy" couple there are tens if not hundreds "unhappy" couples, that's it.

I was talking ONLY about encreasing/decreasing risks by taking time. It seems to me that marriage is too serious step to count on luck only.

There are too many definitions of true love but I want to quote one (I don't remember who said it). You love a person when you are able to judge him objective, to see all his advantages and shortcommings and to get sure you'll able to survive these shortcommings.

RW, it's not disagreement with your post (anyway I like it and agree with most part of it), I just tried to explain my position. And I thank you for your comments.

Regards,

Tootsie

... in response to Best surprise in the marriage is..., posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

Tootsie,

I don't take it as disagreement, especially considering the fact that love has different shades and means different things to people. And also since we both are talking about it from the different prospective, experience, age and many other factors - I don't think two people would come to the total agreement on this topic.

I am not talking about marriage without love, rather the opposite, but pointing out that ONLY love is not enough for successful marriage.

And Tootsie, you do learn many things about your spouse only AFTER the marriage. Certain situations just don't happen during the courtship. "wonderful" things were meant in both meaning - good and bad. You learn not so much about qualities- smart, stubborn, generous, caring, boring, exciting, etc but how you both function together, how you react to things, how able you are to compromise, etc.

The story of the guy complaining about his RW who did not cook and clean is very good one. MAY be he was in love - love has too many shapes and colors. But, there were other things missing - communication, ability to change and compromise, etc... I don't think it is fair to say he was not in love - you never know....

Anyways, love is a wonderful thing which happens to people, but after that there are so many other components to successful relationship. There is a saying which I am sure you know - "Talent - it 1% of genius and 99% of hard work"... well, love is no different.... :)

Take care,

Russian Wife

... in response to Re: Best surprise in the marriage is..., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

Relationships have different levels.

What is acceptable in a casual girlfriend would not be acceptable in a serious one...
what is acceptable in a "girlfriend" is not acceptable in a fiancee...
what is acceptable in a fiancee is not acceptable in a wife...

I can give you examples of each of those.

Problem is, until the person is IN THAT ROLE... you don't know how they will react.

You can't.

Many times, THEY will not know.

I agree that you need to try to be objective... but love is not -- by it's nature -- objectinve... so there are emotions and intellect at war to some degree...

... in response to Re: Best surprise in the marriage is..., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

I did learn lots of "wonderful" (good and bad) things about my husbands after the marriage :).

For the first time I got married being young and it didn't work because I couldn't survive all weaknesses of my husband. For most women those weaknesses could be probably his advantages (didn't drink, didn't smoke, was very "proper" etc.) but not for me. It was a matter of compatibility and we were not compatible. Now I realize I just never really loved him because otherwise I would hardly go away.

I did my best to take this negative experience into my second marriage and to avoid such a mistake. I clearly realized that living in different countries we could only "date" (mainly we spent "long weekends" in either Germany or Russia) which was not the same than "living together". I suggested to my future husband that I get a 1 year German visa and we live together for a year without getting married and he agreed. I did get a 1 year German visa but when I looked into my passport more attentively I found out that I could travel to Germany within a year but could stay there for not longer than 3 months during all the trips. So I had  to take a risk... Well, I was lucky but I could be not so lucky... It was a game that I won but it could easily be otherwise... And that's why I advise guys to take their time and not to marry a stranger they hardly know but have strong sexual excitement about...

By the way, in Germany the vast majority of couples live together VERY long (4+ years at least) before they get married. And I heard only about ONE case of divorce, and it was a very special case (my German 60 y.o. boss-multimillionaire fell in love with 30 y.o. Russian girl). No other cases I've heard about in 1,5 years!

And I still think this man never loved this lazy girl! LOL :)))

Cheers,

Tootsie

... in response to Best surprise in the marriage is..., posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

I forgot to mention in my previous post.

"IF it is ONLY love - your relationship will look like a pyramid turned upside down and sooner or later it will simply collapse... What are other "bricks"? - compatible and ...."

I remember one recent post where a man who "loved" RW and married her complained that she was lazy, spent too much money, didn't cook, didn't clean etc. and he was going to divorce her. Did he "love" her? I don't think so. Because if he did...

I just included all these "bricks" you are talking about in the meaning of the word "true love".

Maybe love is not the most important thing in the marriage and there are many couples who live together without love, satisfied with their marriage and not going to divorce. Nevertheless they will never be as happy as the couples who have this "love".

Tootsie

... in response to One more thing..., posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

Tootsie

I agree with both you and RW but will make my own statement

I can not marry without Love. Love is interesting in that it can hit you like a thunder bolt or it can sneak up on you and surprise you - it can come in many forms and they all can end up in the same level of intensity just different.

However, there is the practical issue of living with one another and thus the general compatibility issues of living together are very real and can break a love if the discrepancy is great one person to the other.

But, I sense if you have true love it is like you say, you can more easliy live with their negatives - they become smaller because of the love whereas if there is not the love - the negatives seem to grow more annoying over time. Whereas when you are in love the partner's weaknesses can actually become endearing to you.

It is a big and major difference.

... in response to I wish I knew the answer....., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

I have also known those who got married after just a few months or even a few weeks and are now celebrating 40 and 50 year anniversaries.  I also know those who dated for 4-5 years before marrying and the marriage lasted 2 years or so.

But, for those who have been married 30 or more years, they tell me that 'true love' doesn't come until 10 years or so.  Before that it may be just sexual attraction or infatuation or whatever.

But, like RW says, what you may think is Love is only part of it.  I am hoping to find a lady who can stand to be around me on a daily basis and whom I can stand to be around on a daily basis.  Sex is a good idea, natuarally, but that may take a couple of hours a week or so.  What about the other 166 hours a week.

Do you like to talk about what you did today, and listen to what she did.  Do you like to work in the yard together.  Do you like to walk around the block or through the woods together.

Can you stand to be around the kind of people she likes to associate with, and vice versa.  Can you agree on the type of food to eat and who is going to prepare it.  Can you agree on drinking habits of each other.

Who is going to earn the money, and how is it going to be spent.

How much time are you going to spend with your relatives and how much time with her relatives.

If I can find a lady who is compatible with me on most of the above, I am not going to be worrying about the concept of 'Love.'  That will certainly come with time.

JR

... in response to I wish I knew the answer....., posted by RW on Dec 5, 2001

that the first "love" (lust, infatuation, call it what you will) is the 'glue that binds' while the relationship is forming and solidifing into a solid "relationship".
Perhaps that is why it is said that the 'first year' casts the mold?
Then, if the foundation is solid, all other factors can be safely built upon it?

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

When I was a younger man I would sit in my room of my fathers home reading many different books.  Thinking to myself how I could make since of my life.  Why am I on this earth, how can I live happy, with a loving heart in such a world as I live.  Searching threw wise words from many.  I once read a translation from Plato that contemplated upon the workings of music, breaking it down, like he was so talented at, into basic thoughts.   He wrote about a mathematical formula that Pythagorean used the 3-4-5 triangles.  How in finding two sides of this triangle it was always possible to find the third side.  Plato applied this formula to music in that all music has three sides a harmony, melody and rhythm.  If you had two of the three you were certain to find the third.  If you had the harmony of the song and the melody you were always assured to find the rhythm.  Just as if you had the rhythm and the harmony you were assured to find the melody and so on.  I thought about this formula many times as I grew up.  It was this formula that brought me to Architecture as I use it everyday in my drawings.  I have applied this formula to many things in life not just music and architecture.  As it is the rhythm of my heart beating when I get your letters the melody that comes from reading your words.  I am just assured to find that one day our meeting will give me my harmony.

Life is full of happiness and sorrows it is what makes life so wonderful.  Some people have great sex after a heated argument.  Or the American women with her need for drama that without she will often looses interest.  Love is something that we cannot always put our finger on.  I feel it is a harmony that comes from a rhythm and a melody.  Others make it what they will, they know what floats their boat and Love is not always their reason for finding friends in Ukraine or Russia, companionship, spreading their seed, a status symbol, or someone to help out with the day-to-day things.  Love can come from anyone of these things.

Ok if your lost then join the club is anyone sure what true love is?

... in response to True Love?, posted by Ryan on Dec 5, 2001

Good post Ryan,

It certainly gets one to think.

In addition to that truth as it may be - I  will tell you why I think that we get confused about love.

One reason has to do with all the psychological baggage that people have that complicates it. Humans are such sensitive creatures that we come out of childhood even if it was a good one scarred - then reactive for the rest of one's life being a puppet responding to software of programmed responses.

All of this gets in the way of love. Without all of this, love would be clean, fresh, honest and unconditional.

So, you have to deal with every one's stuff as well as your own and hope love can survive.

The triangle to me also describes what I see as sick co-dependent relationships also.

The truer one is to one's heart and less a product of programmed responses the more clear one is about love.

... in response to True Love?, posted by Ryan on Dec 5, 2001

At least it's sunny where I'm at. Interesting analogy. I will have to remember it. I was once challenged and told that I didn't know anything about love. I asked that woman what did she know about it? I told her to teach me and show me what she thought it was. She couldn't do it.

Trying to understand and quantify the intangible things in life is difficult. And yet those intangibles are what makes life worth living. All of the money and material things are worthless if a person isn't happy. And what is it that makes any one of us happy?

We all need to look deep within ourselves and try to find what we really want. If we don't know what we want how can we ever find it? Sometimes soul searching can be a scary thing but I think it is neccessary if you want to become a better person.

Just some thoughts from a guy who is very deeply involved in trying to decide where to go with his life.

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

The one other thing...

Is the idea of a fiancee Visa having three months is for you to make SURE that you want to go through with it.

In other words... use the three months to really decide if you BOTH will be happy here, together.

Three months isn't very long, as you said Tootsie. And yet, many people don't even bother using the three months they are given...

However, having said that... I think back on my marriage... and I recall that my wife and I knew what we wanted after a month. Of course... that ended in Divorce enventually... so maybe I am inadvertently proving Tootsie's point.

Aaaargh! Now I don't know what I'm trying to say...

-- we now return you to your regular scheduled programming --

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

Tootsie:

Your advice is sound; but research in USA has shown that people with long courtships have a higher divorce ratio.

Why?
As Mark in Texas pointed out below, marriage takes a lot of commitement; some people can make that commitment with a brief courtship, some people are unwilling to make that commitment regardless of the time spent in courtship.

In my case, I brought my RW here after knowing her for a short time; she has been here for eight months; we waited till the end of her 90 days on K-1 to get married. Our relationship is excellent and gets better all the time. We both are very happy with our decisions.
It is far better today than it was when I first met her in her country.

If I followed your advice, I would still be single.

You can see our wedding photos at the yahoo album link below.

Mark

... in response to I Beg to Differ, posted by mdante99 on Dec 5, 2001

I would have to see the actual times frames in the study that would show this. You may not have actually read the study but heard about the results from what you might or might not consider a reliable source. I have just learned that what one hears is not always as it appears. You may be absolutely correct about this but......................

My guess is this is what you would find or should look at - being three categories and not two.

1) Those that have a short romance and get married (within 6 months or at least set the date and follow thru)  

2) Those that wait a year but not more than two

3) Those that date for several years and then get married hitched.

I would not be surprised if Group 1) did better than Group 3) as Group 3) is going to have a lot of people getting married because it has become comfortable but they were not excited about each other enough to get married right away - but now it seems like the thing to do.

However, does Group 1) do better than Group 2)? And were there as many in Group 1) as Group 2) or 3) to compare to? Most people I meet did not get married so quickly. I mean some guys go to the FSU after writing for several months. Take a look at the lady - take note that she has both legs and arms and that she just happens to be more attractive than what he is used to and she seems awful sweet - so he says "I'll take her" ----Lets file a K-1 and I will look at the three month deadline. However, once you go thru all of this, it is not as easy to stop the process and not follow thru as it would be with a lady you were simply dating from your own city/town/countryside. You might be more prone to ignore some concerns hoping they are not real.

All I can do is speak from my own personal experience. I have felt very strong for some women but after being with them more -their real personality came out and I found that to get married would have been a BIG mistake. Had I not been given more time, I would not have been able to find this out. I would never want to be in Group 3) and marry because it seemed the thing to do. I would prefer to be in Group 1) but for me that has never happened that I would be such inclined - maybe it is not my nature and I could never be a Group 1) type - I would like to think that I could.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is I tend to agree with Tootsie at this point. I think to think otherwise could be - just could be - rationalizing away this to allow one to proceed more easily because that is what one has as their agenda.

When I say you I mean one

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

The distance really is the hardest part of these relationships. Only with time spent together do we get to really know each other. I can learn more about a person by spending a few hours observing them and not even talking than I can through dozens of letters.

I know that many of the mistakes that I made in Russia were because I felt I was on a time limit. When you only have a few days you think that you must do certain things. But when is the proper time for anything? That is something I still haven't learned. Unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules for how to make a succesful relationship. There are just too many variables.

I agree with your post.
Regards, Zink

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

This whole process of finding a RW as a wife and doing it by bringing them over and just going for it is a hard pill to swallow.  If I had this advice last year and took it to heart I would be a much happier person today.  I wanted love now as I felt it and she felt it but she said it would take time and I then took that as she either didn't like me or was scamming me and dragging things out.  

It is a fine line we walk but if we take that Russian saying "If there is a desire one looks for opportunity, if there is no desire one looks for a reason."  Or in America we say "If you really want something you can get with a little extra effort."

I have also listened to another interesting point of view.  Go over there find yourself a babe and bring her home.  If she runs then go back and find another one.  Keep doing this until your Viagra pills no longer work. You’re bound to have a much better time of it than dating these American women.  So love is what then.  Does it really mater to everyone looking?

Ryan

... in response to Proper time to take commitment, posted by Tootsie on Dec 5, 2001

the cold wet nose of your dog, telling you that you are truly loved, no matter what!!!!!

... in response to Love is........, posted by Del on Dec 5, 2001

This further expains my post above in this tread entitled "True Illness"  because dogs are less prone to the same problem as humans. Thank you - it helped me to even better understand my own post.

For anyone who has had a dog - I would think that most have experienced this unconditional love that your dog gives you. You can bank on it. My post I referred to is one reason you can not bank on humans like you can dogs.

The lady that I became involved with had some serious emotional baggage that became clear on our second visit. She would have been a big mistake. However, a lot of time and money down the drain and I now find myself not as optimistically starting over.

... in response to Yes and..., posted by thesearch on Dec 5, 2001

Hey Thesearch,
I just want to encourage you to think positive and remember that even though it is a lot of time and money and heartache and grief over the bad ones, it will all be worth it when you finally find a good one.  They are out there and if you keep up the search, you will find one that is the best for you.

... in response to something to think about, posted by Ramblin on Dec 6, 2001

because you are so correct.

However my experience let me realize that it does take some time to get to know someone. The lady that I was referring to was a very lovely person in so many ways. She was honest, sweet, fun to be around and was a perfect match for me physically - but she was screwed up in the head - and she hid it quite well. Seh was a time bomb waiting to go off.

But, as you said, it only takes one to find happiness and a person will not find it fretting about the past. Thanks for taking the time to remind me.

Right now, I am just less attached to it all - with a will just see what happens attitude.

... in response to Love is........, posted by Del on Dec 5, 2001

I just woke up in bed with the one person who I know really loves me. Well maybe person is the wrong word. She's an 8 year old cocker spaniel cross.

... in response to Re: Love is........, posted by Zink on Dec 5, 2001

I also have a cocker spaniel she is a one-man dog.  She even acts like a Lady and looks exactly like the dog in Lady and the tramp.  I can stretch in bed in the morning and she comes and gives me a hug.  Your right she would be hard to top…

... in response to My "Lady" is the best..., posted by Ryan on Dec 5, 2001

:))))))

... in response to How can you find the qualities of a dog ..., posted by thesearch on Dec 5, 2001

...I've never met one who even came close to a good dog.

... in response to You can't......., posted by LP on Dec 6, 2001

sd

... in response to women generally more like cats then dogs..., posted by thesearch on Dec 6, 2001

....the only good cat is a dead one.

... in response to How can you find the qualities of a dog ..., posted by thesearch on Dec 5, 2001

I know you understand what I was saying but for those that might not.  My dogs name is Lady.  She acts like a girl when it rains and will not go outside if it is wet.  She will walk around other dogs poop as if she is saying to herself "Oh Sick".  She does not just give anyone a kiss she is a true lady.  So on and so on.......