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Jimmy,
On your post below you said, "She has no opportunity here, her beauty is not recognized nor sought after. She has no money, no one flirting with her, no men hitting on her. She is just a another fixture here. She has no future, no independent life, no way to make a real go by herself. Her whole life revolves around her man because she HAS to. It is survival."

I agree that the level of competition in the beauty category is much higher in the FSU, but "no one flirting with her, no men hitting on her"?  I don't understand that part of your post.  My wife is a knockout.  She has told me that back in Russia she is "average" (which I doubt, but OK let's say closer to average).  She was "hit on" all the time.  The flirtation came from guys her own age to friends and business associates of her parents.  Of course she causes much more of a stir here with the guys and what woman doesn't like attention?  But I have never seen a woman so skillful at deflecting unwanted advances from other men as my wife.  She learned this skill long before she came here.
KenC

... in response to Jimmy on your post below, posted by KenC on Dec 6, 2001

Ken,

I don't expect all to agree with me but I had the same perceptions that all on the board have before I came over here.  I was in a lather like the rest of you.  I came over here in Nov 01 and will leave back home to US in Feb 02.  I have completely changed the way I think.

I met Elena three days after I got here in Nov. 01.  I met her in a cafe and danced with her and we never separated after that.  We lived together for over one year.  I lived as an AM but learning the Russian way of life in Ukraine.  I met all her friends, her ex lovers, her family, her ex husband.  I live as a Russian man.  I eat all the local food, drink all the local drink, and buy at the local bazaar.  I watch these people everyday.  I see how much flirting Russian women get sitting daily in local bars and cafes.  I see what motivates Russian people.  All my expat friends have Russian women.  I see what motivates them.  I work daily with Russian men and women.  I see what motivates them.

No, I do not know everything.  I am 56 years old and been married several times to AM.  I am not a young stud.  I just have age and experience to lean on.  It is hard to be fooled when daily I spend my time with Russian people and expecially with Elena.  Many Russian women I know or heard of that are pillars of the commnunity have had extra marital affairs.  It is very common.  Men also have mistresses.

I just think that too many AM in my age group coming here lose all rational thinking when showered with words of love and affection from young Russian women.  I would love to see the statistics on age difference in the AM/RW marriages in the last two years.  I know a young Ukrainian woman that recently came back from an interview in Warsaw that married one of my expat buddies.  She was appalled at all the old AM with young Russian women waiting for the visa interview.  I recently was in the US Kiev Embassy and saw a middle aged AM with a young girl filing a DCF.  She couldn't have been past 24.

Just think for a minute.  Would you or anyone else travel to meet someone in the US and marry them after a two week meeting?  Would you send $100 a month to your AW just after a two week meeting?  Likely you wouldn't do that in the US, why over here?  Why is the tendency to trust these woman more than you would some AW in the US?  Is it the mystery of it all?  Do these women seem exotic to AM?  Is it the control factor?  Is it a trade between money and affection?  I fail to understand.  

Yes, I believe Elena loves me.  I know she loves the security I give her. Yes, she loves me because I am a good man and come home at night to be with her and not all my vodka drinking work mates.  Yes, she loves the morals that I have.  Yes, I believe she loves me from her heart.  But I believe that love developed over the past year.  Looking back I can't even begin to think she had that love for me in the beginning.  But that love developed over here in her turf.  Not mine.  Still she is very interested and motivated by the future promise of a visa.  I would be very careful to test the beginnings of a love for one of these women by placing her in an environment that is completely foreign to her.  Some of you have done that.  I hope you success.  Many of you will succeed.  Some will not.  But if you don't succeed then place the blame squarely where it belongs.  You knew the risk and were willing to take it.

Some people will take a tax refund check and blow it in Las Vegas and on the other hand will penny pinch their savings account.  Money is money but it is how it is perceived.  How it is viewed and what pain the loss of it will affect us.  Perception is everything.

So I leave you with this observation.  Somehow many AM find that the risk of marrying someone from the FSU acceptable and willing to lay everything on the line for it.  I though find that risk the same for AW or RW.

The problem as I see it is the money factor.  Take it away and everything changes.  Now I think this will start some real discussion.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Region

... in response to Not all agree, posted by Jimmy on Dec 7, 2001

First of all, I am enjoying your posts.

Here is my question. You said that your fiancee was appalled at how many old AM were processing visas with very young women. I thought you said that she was a lot younger than you. So, why (if I got this straight) does she not view the same relative to you and her? What age range is acceptable according to your fiancee and what is not out of curiosity?

... in response to question, posted by thesearch on Dec 7, 2001

First off it wasn't my fiance' that went to Warsaw for the visa interview.  It was the wife of an expat that lives here with the community.  She is not much younger than him.  Also my fiance' Elena is 40 and I am 56.  I kind of think that is an acceptable age difference in my mind.

The age difference factor I am concerned about is the 50 year old man marrying a young 25 year old.  Now you can adjust those numbers any way you want but it comes down to how long it will take before both of you will start to age together.  I think a 50 year old man is starting to age and will do so rapidly in 10 years.  The 25 year old girl will be in her youth for another 15 years and then just starting to age at 40 while the 50 year old man is well into it at age 65.

My 40 year old Elena is very young looking but is starting to age and she sees about another ten years before she is considered a babuska.  Men are not considered over the hill for a longer time.

This issue has been debated here for sometime and I don't want to start another one.  I just think that older AM should marry only RW at the age that would be acceptable to marry an AW in the US.  It is extremely obvious that young RW are marrying much older AM just to gain entry into the US and for the money.  I have a difficult time believing anything else.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Region

... in response to Not all agree, posted by Jimmy on Dec 7, 2001

Jimmy,
Please do not think I am arguing with you or dissing your opinion, but I am still unclear of what your opinion is.  In your earlier post, I thought you were saying that RW DID NOT get flirted with by RM.  In this post you say, "I watch these people everyday. I see how much flirting Russian women get sitting daily in local bars and cafes".  It is still unclear to me what level of flirting is going on there (In your opinion).  My thinking on this is that men are men anywhere and they will do whatever is necessary to get some "play".  Is it your position that RW get flirted with less in Russia (Ukraine) than here?

On the issue of financial advantages you ask the question, "Would you send $100 a month to your AW just after a two week meeting?"  "Send", no.  "Spend" is another story all together.  A hundred bucks wouldn't cover a decent date let alone keep an AW happy for a whole month.  LOL.  There is no way anyone could convince me that there are any women in this world more  materialistic than an AW.

I have had some financial successes in my past.  My financial position was much more important to AW than my Russian wife.  The many AW that I dated were VERY caught up in the cars, homes, vacations, country clubs ect.  My wife stopped me in my tracks very early in our relationship with a few words, "who are you?  I am not asking what you own, but who is KenC?  What are your dreams?  What makes you happy?  Or sad?  What do you want from your life?"  I have to tell you that my Russian wife has made me realize what is truly important in life and those lessons had nothing to do with money.

This next point will be difficult to say without sounding condescending, but I will try.  The "average Joe" AM will have a much more difficult time not flaunting his new found materialistic advantage with RW than would an AM that has above average income levels here.  Men of wealth develop a "third eye" that is on watch for people (women and men) that are out to take advantage of their position.  Maybe that is why for some here, the scammers are nothing new.
KenC

... in response to don't know if we agree or not, posted by KenC on Dec 7, 2001

Ken,

Yes, I think RM pay allot less attention in terms of hitting on and flirting with RW.  Absolutely.  Also RM are more gentlemenly about this aspect than AM.  A gorgeous RW will get little attention from a RM whereas an AM will fall all over himself.  Maybe it's because RM are so used to seeing these beautiful girls.  I don't really know why but I expect there are several reasons.

And sending money to a woman you hardly know is the reason I gave the example of an AW.  Just making a comparison.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

... in response to Not all agree, posted by Jimmy on Dec 7, 2001

Hi Jimmy,

First I want to say that I agree with each word of your posts.

Certainly KenC is right and beautiful (and not very beautiful too) girls get attention of guys everywhere. The problem is “quality” of guys. I’m sure each of you guys is able to get attention of lots of older ugly fat AW in the area you live. The question is - will it make you proud and happy?

Also, in my opinion you all overestimate the fact that many RM have mistresses. It’s not their most important weakness, believe me. In fact it’s not as common and as important as you think. First in order to have a young mistress a man should have very good financial position. A young girl will hardly sleep with a much older married (and non-married too, by the way) man for free. Men also have no illusions about “love” and clearly realize that the first, second, third and tenth reason for a girl’s “love” is his money. The vast majority of men hide the fact of mistress from their wives. It’s not very common that a man divorces his “old” wife and marries a young mistress. Wife is wife, she is mother of his children, reliable friend and partner who will stay with him no matter what happens. If he gets sick she will take care of him. If he looses his money she will still stay with him and supports him. As a rule a young mistress is just a young paid body for sex, nothing else.

Another “problem” here is alcoholism, it’s more serious then “mistresses” but still not so important. Alcoholism is much more common is “working class” families among non-educated people than in intelligent ones. No doubt that a woman who has self respect will never live with an alcholic.

Regards,

Tootsie

... in response to Quantity vs. Quality, posted by Tootsie on Dec 7, 2001

First of all, thanks for your post.

Here is my question. You mention about the married RM and their mistress. What about the Russian wives - do they very commonly have extra marital affairs?

... in response to question, posted by thesearch on Dec 7, 2001

Today on TV they said that 75% of married RM had affairs vs. 26% of married RW...

Take care,

Tootsie

... in response to Statistics says..., posted by Tootsie on Dec 7, 2001

but the truth.  People lie...all the time.  Especially with anything having to do with sex.  If you ask what political issue or candidate they like or what brand of beer or their favorite TV show...I bet you will get an honest answer.  But with sex or fooling around forget it.  People will lie.

... in response to Not all agree, posted by Jimmy on Dec 7, 2001

We're "in a lather like the rest of you."

I know I wasn't (in a lather, that is - at least, not till *after* I met Olya --smile--) - and I see a good many posts on this board are designed to prevent guys from getting all lathered-up.

It's a bit insulting when you paint everyone on the board with one broad swath.

Your experiences in Ukraine are, undeniably, *your* experiences - and you add a unique perspective. I find occasional disagreement with your posts - though usually not so much that I choose to debate it - and I've probably had more cumulative time in Ukraine than you have. I just suggest that you try not to make blanket statements. They are invariably incorrect.

- Dan

... in response to Jimmy, "Not All Agree" With Yo..., posted by Dan on Dec 7, 2001

Dan,

I don't mean to insult by using the statement "in a lather like the rest".  That is a generalized statement as you well know and don't take it personally.  But I can't believe so many have risked so much for so many unknowns unless there was something more basic about this whole equation of RW/AM.

Sometimes my posts don't come across well because many want to believe what they want and ignore anything that will go contrary to it.

I do believe you have had more time here in Ukraine than I do and won't debate that with you.  I think your time here though has been sporadic over the years.  I don't know if you have really been able to see the day to day activities like I have.  But I am sure you will argue the point that the insight you have gained is more than mine.  Maybe so.  I don't pretend to know everything and certainly I have much to learn.  And I am trying.  I am not an expert by any means.

If some are offended about my statements then I must say that I am hitting home in right areas.

I met an older AM in MacDonalds recently and found out he had been there two weeks and just proposed to his translator.  Much younger than him.  Elena and I asked him many questions about her that he couldn't answer but he was ready and willing to go back and start the paperwork to bring her home.  He was in a dream world.  He couldn't get the fantasy out of his mind and nothing I could or would say will change his one track thinking.  Was he in a "lather" so to speak?  I would think so.  What else would drive him into such an act?  This type of decision just absolutely amazes me.

I am all for finding a RW for good AM.  But I think a careful process of selection would be more successful than some of the ways I have seen.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine, Kiev Region

... in response to Re: Jimmy, "Not All Agree" Wit..., posted by Jimmy on Dec 7, 2001

I could probably write a book with that title. Hmmmm . . . maybe in my waning years --smile--.

Jimmy, yes it is true that my visits to Ukraine have been sporadic. They also followed immediately on the heels of 2 long-term expatriate assignments - the first in Taipei and the second near Nuernberg, Germany. Since then, I have spent roughly 1/4 of my time in Ukraine - maybe a bit more. I think the shortest trip I took was a week-long visit to see Olya - and the longest was a couple of months.

No, I probably do not have the same day-to-day experiences you have. However, I also did not spend any of my time in the typical expatriate compounds/camps. I have made several life-long (I suspect) great friends in Ukraine - and, of course, have family there now as well. Much of my time has been spent with the local communities - seeing and experiencing life from their perspective - or at least as much as it is possible to do given my particular background.

Like KenC said in another response to you - I am not necessarily disagreeing with you (except on the blatant generalizations --smile--). Certainly it is possible to see men in Ukraine that seem to exercise extremely poor judgement in making choices to get married - just as it is possible to see those same people making those same (or similar) poor judgements right here in the USA.

My point is, people that are going to make a head-long rush into an important decision will do so no matter what the venue - be it America, Albania , Ukraine or New Zealand.

Look around at those guys "in a lather" on this board. DE has been at it since 1998. WmGO is one of the most thoughtful persons around and has been involved in this process for a good while. LP has made analysis of this process something of a legend. Quasimoto I first met in Kyiv more than a year ago and he certainly didn't look all lathered-up to me. The list could go on - but you get the point.

Jimmy, your insights and your observations about life in Ukraine are invaluable - and we will all miss them when you return. Like a lot of expats (myself included), I suspect your perspective on life in Urkaine is a bit jaded - perhaps even as much as those of us that are mere visitors - just in a different way.

Just something to think about.

On a different topic, have you decided if you will return to the States accompanied yet? If so - what route did you decide for the visa paperwork?

Best of luck to you Jimmy.

- Dan

... in response to Jimmy on your post below, posted by KenC on Dec 6, 2001

While Jimmy's advice is usually very sound, I too had to disagree with that post. Not only does it contradict the fact that many RM have mistresses and girlfriends (how would they get them unless they flirted and hit on them and offered them something they didn't have), but it also summizes that because someone is poor that they have no character. And on that one I disagree even more, as my experiance has been that doing w/o ussually builds character. In fact some of the most 'successful' people I've met, lack of character was their one glaring weakness. But I don't think that $ took away their character, but the way they were raised. Which thus leads me back to my theory that if they would cheat on their man there, or were willing to be someone's mistress there, they would probably do it here. But I don't think that if someone w/ strong character comes over here that they are going to 'lose it' and then go out and try to find the best deal that they can.

... in response to I've gotta agree w/ you, posted by Stan B on Dec 6, 2001

First of all, I did not see this post by Jimmy and looking back somehow I missed it.

But, how do you know what type of lady she is? I do not think that she will tell you that she has been a mistress or  whether she had multiple partners or if she is more attracted to the green card than to you. I have seen some pretty sly women who hide very well their past (of course they were AW)

But, one thing has been said  - and that is - everyone has their price as to when they will turn and do something that prior they thought that they would never do. Of course there are exceptions.

So, if you were starving, homeless and it was very cold out and a fat rude bich says if you bonk me I will feed you and let you stay in my house till this cold spell passes. You might say -  you got a deal???

Whereas if things were fine, not that hungry and not that cold out you would say - forget it. The only difference is how much hardship someone can endure before they start compromising on what their values were when everything was going well.  

So, if an FSU lady needs money to feed her children - what will she do to feed them? - I guess it depends how long they have gone without food. So, I am not sure you can always determine what someone will be like relative to being in different situations.

For example, Jimmy says that women who would not give him the time of day in the USA are very interested in him when he is Ukraine. Clearly these women are compromising in what they require in a man in a way that they would not if they were here in the USA.

Again, the trap and danger is revealed again - in that if you exceed by too much what you can attract in the female gender in your backyard as compared to what you bring home from the FSU - well you really do not know what will happen when you get her here. What she does is based upon what type of attraction she has for you in her heart  not what she necessarily tells you. It is also as you say based upon her moral character of which I am going to say that many guys are not going to have a clue as to what that really is relative to the truth. You simply can not know a woman by a couple of meetings yet some will swear that they do and get upset with anyone who might challenge this.Now it is true that some people are more intuitive than others and thus they carry with them radar that helps warn them of what is out there.

... in response to The problem is, posted by thesearch on Dec 6, 2001

Search,
You said, "For example, Jimmy says that women who would not give him the time of day in the USA are very interested in him when he is Ukraine. Clearly these women are compromising in what they require in a man in a way that they would not if they were here in the USA."

Sorry, but you cannot automaticlly assume that it is Jimmy's wallet alone that is the attraction.  RW (right or wrong) have a few other qualities that they give us American men credit for.  Being faithful, treating women well, being good fathers, being good lovers as well as being good providers for our families (not necessarily being lavished with luxuries).  If you look at that list, we have a lot going for us before you throw in the good ol USA.

How do you know if your RW is of good character?  Get to know her and know her well.  I agree that anyone that jumps into the fire after a couple of meetings with ANY woman better be a darn good gambler, because that is what he is doing (and so is she).  When you get to know someone well, their future actions can be better anticipated.  How does she treat you?  Is it for real? Or a suck-up?  How does she treat others? (waitresses, bellboys, her friends, her family)  What does she say about ex-boyfriends (husbands)?  Is she selfish?  Does she talk too much about herself?  Does she insist on eating at only very good restaurants or is she happy to eat cheap (or cook for you)?  Is her conversation about material things? (clothes, cars, trips, jewelery) Or is she more interested in YOUR character?

Russian women ARE women!  Use everything you have learned about AW and then apply that to Russian women.  If you havn't learned much about women in general, then roll the dice.  If you have good "women skills" here, you will do well in Russia.  It isn't brain surgery, just common sense.  It takes time to know anyone, RW are no exception.
KenC

... in response to Re: The problem is, posted by KenC on Dec 6, 2001

asd

... in response to Jimmy on your post below, posted by KenC on Dec 6, 2001

I did not see this quote of Jimmy's below. Where was that?
Thanks in advance.

... in response to question Ken, posted by thesearch on Dec 6, 2001

Re: Re: Re: I posed this question to my fiancee.