Planet-Love.com Searchable Archives

My, oh my - how we manage to find some of the most interesting topics to argue about here on Good 'Ol P-L!

Out of curiosity - how many of you would insist that a person tip - or not tip - or tip a certain percentage - or spend their money a particular way - if the discussion centered around life here in America - or a vacation to Las Vegas ???

Maybe it's just me - but I fail to see the logic of arguing over a topic that is simply based on individual choice. I sometimes tip when I am in Ukraine - and I sometimes do not - it is entirely situational and a function of my mood at the time. I have tipped waitresses and I have tipped cabbies - and I have even tipped the 'floor babushka' that monitors who comes to my room at night in the hotel (it's amazing what a little constume jewelry will do for relaxing the 'rules' - btw, ask Jack for his inputs on the topic - they are invaluable).

Seriously, while I see both sides of this particular argument - I also see it as an individual's choice to do whatever he/she wishes. If a person has the disposable income and wishes to 'live it up' while in the FSU - so what?? Do you really believe it will spoil it for those who wish to travel more frugally? Sure, some people may form the wrong opinion - but that is hardly the entire population - and I would be pretty suspicious of someone that formed opinions of an entire country's populace based on the spending habit of a few travelers anyway.

Sorry guys - I just don't see the relevance of an argument on tipping choices.

I do, however, get really riled at some of the nonsense I see written about average wages and the cost to locals for apartment rentals in Ukraine. There sure seems to be some serious misinformation flying around here. It is ludicruous to think that any reasonable apartment will cost a local in Kyiv only $25 per month. Maybe it is possible in some villages or some distant reaches where metro and bus travel is a great distance away, but it is not realistic in most sections of Kyiv.

I also rankle at the garbage about a $50 per month average wage in Ukraine. I'd like to see the demographics and statistics to support it. The only possible way it can be true is if it accounts for the entire population (non-working children included) and incorporates the rural, agricultural communities.  Clearly, in Kyiv and other major cities, the average wage is much higher - and I know Olya was quadrupling that amount for her wages at a truck factory - without a university degree - and in a relatively small city in Ukraine.

Perhaps it is because I am active in the Ukrainian job market that I have a fairly well-developed sense of incomes - because I am paying some, but there is a pretty clearly-distorted common belief on this board.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Tipping in the US, at least around NYC, is getting out of control.  Yes, I would comment to someone on tipping in the US, as well as in the FSU.  Especially to someone travelling to areas where tipping is a relatively new practice.

Americans really need to think about why they provide tips for service.  

When I started dating, the 'rule' was to tip 10% for table service, and vary it up or down depending on the quality.  I don't recall when the baseline shifted to 15%, but I've been struggling to hold the line at that level.  It's tough, especially when most of the people I go out with have accepted a 20% baseline as the norm.  Recently, I've been reading that a 25-30% tip is recommended for 'dining' in NYC.  The service hasn't been improving, the expected size of the tips has just been getting bigger.

Tips have also been inflating for cabbies, barbers, bellmen, porters, hotel maids, and all of the other service people who tradionally have held their hands out for a little bit extra.  Tip jars are turning up by the cash register in businesses where I would never have considered leaving a tip.  A tip for the cashier at the drug store?  Tip jars at the meat and deli counters in my supermarket?  Someone mentioned the absurdity of leaving a tip for a windshield repair.  Both of the car repair places in my town now have tip jars for the mechanics.  

Why do we do this to ourselves?  

Let the employers pay their people decent wages, and scrap the habit of leaving tips simply because they are expected.

I have a few anecdotes about tipping overseas, but I think I'll leave them for the next time this topic rises up.  

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Money?  Money is an interesting topic.  Money helps make the world go 'round.  I used to be a head waiter(part-time) at a very very high end restaurant and here tips are all a part of the show.  if you had a great and memorable moment in your life...most Americans and South Americans and Brit's and French...all show it...no problem.  But,  thats here.  But,  anywhere most people do like to receive money.

  Some months ago I had read posts of how people make so very little money in Ukraine and Russia.  Something like $50 per month was the average salary.  There is some numbers,  statistical game going on here,  with those numbers,  especially for Moscow or Kiev.  They make more money there...period and a decent rent is far more.  Now,  maybe in Grebenik...its $50,  but not in the big cities.

  Heres the very funny thing,  I have found.  There are some very smart women in Moscow and Kiev who have excellent educations and jobs....and are married.  They speak and write and communicate in excellent English and live in very nice apartments with their Russian husbands,  who are maybe 5 years older and also make a good buck.  They are quite sophiscated and very well educated and very curious of the world beyond them.  I really have begun to think that the girls who use the agencies are probably poor and not as educated as my better gifted penpals.  Some people make nice comfortable money there and have the time to email me from work and also have a computer at home and have no interest in marrying a foreign guy.  

 So,  the money thing???  To each his own.   Tim

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Dan,

I didn't meant that you are a Sugar Daddy in the downside sense of the word.  I apolgize.

My statement about the spending of Americans and other foreigners may be somewhat unsupported.  But I do live in an expat community and see how we are viewed by some and as one Ukrainian man put it to me "Americans have money coming to them like rain".  Even the French expats make jokes about how generous we are and how much money we have.  We tend to throw our money around and be very generous.  I think it comes from our great prosperity in our country and the value of money to us as a people is not well understood.  I hope I did not offend you and others here and hope that I give only good experiences that may be helpful.  My statement may have been a bit crass and uncalled for.

In answer to your question about renting an apartment in Kiev I have paid as high as $110 for a modest apartment in the center and that was when I first got here.  Now I pay around $40-$80 near the center depending on how nice I want it.  Prices are in a state of flux now and resonably so.  Yes there are very expensive apartments for $3000 a month and those happen to be very nice ones.  But I will assure you they are not being rented by Ukrainians.

I moved to Slavutich last November and many expats are coming here to work.  Americans are charged and pay higher prices for the rentals for houses than the French and other Europeans.  Because we pay it and don't mind doing it.  We tend to roll over when charged higher prices and usually don't bargain or argue about it.  Now take the French for example.  They will complain, argue, bargain, and beg to get a lower price.  For some reason Americans won't do that. The French will question every price on the cafe check and will try and minimize how much they will pay.  I will make it clear that I am not picking on the French.  I only have them to compare to but they are very frugal with their money.  Americans are not.

I read with interest how a person paying for work will get more for their money in Ukraine than the US.  I tend to agree with that but with the exception that you should be careful what you are paying for.  I could write more on that but I don't have time today.  I have some examples and may share them later.

All said, I see a vast disparity between the haves and the havenots here.  A babuska sitting down on the road selling vegatables for a measly few hr to a Ukrainian wheeling down the same road in a Mercedes.  Darn, I can't afford a Mercedes and truthfully I see alot of them and none owned by expats.

Well as always this is only my opinion.  I apologize if I offended anyone here.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

... in response to Crass Statement, posted by Jimmy on Nov 19, 2001

offense to anyone (I think). Keep the valuable info coming. Your info is the same as I have learned and observed while over there.

How radioactive is Slavutich? Will you glow when you come home to America?

... in response to No, posted by WmGo on Nov 19, 2001

Actually not much radioactivity here but you can pick up some eating the local vegetables and fruits from the market.  My recent whole body count showed no increase from my work in the US.  I have worked nuclear for 24 years.

Jimmy
Ukraine

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50540-2001Nov18.html

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

This web site looked somewhat official.  Currency conversion came from the Yahoo finance website.  Pay in Kiev is much higher but so are the costs.  These numbers are actually better than what I have read in the past.  Maybe people are getting paid now but in the past people such as teachers and miners had an official wage but were not getting paid.  

http://www.ukremb.com/ukraine/general.htm

Average monthly per capita monetary income (January — November 2000) — UAH 141 (compared to UAH 99.6 in 1999)
141 Ukrainian Hyvernia is $26.72 US dollars

Average monthly of an employed Ukrainian (January — November 2000) - UAH 224 (increased by 29% compared to 1999)
224 Ukrainian Hyvernia is $42.45 US dollars

Decrease of real wages in 2000: 1.4% compared to 1999

Those Ukrainians are rich compared to the Belorussians.  

... in response to Wages in Ukraine, posted by BubbaGump on Nov 18, 2001

This is an interesting conversation and seems that all have a different point of reference for wages.  I am engaged to a woman in Sumy, Ukraine who is a Doctor.  Her wage is only 150 Hrivna per month.  She is a Gynecologist for the city's largest factory.  She also receives gifts from the patients if they can afford it, but they are usually in the form of a bottle champaign, potatoes, eggs, etc.  In money, she recieves very little in tips.  Her mother has been a nurse for 40 years and received a wage of 132 Hrivna per month and because she is also of age for pension, she receives the Governments pension of 135 hrivna.  Her father is retired and receives that same pension amount as all persons at 132.  If you add all this up, you only come to about $100 for the entire family and this includes my fiancee's daughter.  All have to work their crops in the village to be able to exist on such a wage.

I understand that wages are higher in the big cities, just as our are in the good old U.S.A., but is all relevent with costs being higher.  My fiancee just started working two hours extra for families that can afford their own care and pay for it.  I don't know what compensation she receives from this, but I imagine it's better than what the Government pays.  She started working seven years ago and because the government was broke, they did not pay her for six months!  She has a friend who finished number one in the studies as teacher of English and the headmaster of the local university required her to pay him to gain employment. Just wanted to give my input from another point of reference.  Jim

... in response to Wages in Ukraine, posted by BubbaGump on Nov 18, 2001

Would include the entire population as the denominator - is that not true? If it *is* true, then the figure includes all school-age children and infants in Ukraine.

While it may be a useful comparison for relative standards of living in one country versus another - it is hardly a useful metric for much else.

- Dan

... in response to And if I am NOT Mistaken, "Per Capi..., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Of course "per capita" includes all people.  That's why I also included the $42 on the individual salary.  A high birth rate would drive the per capita income down (as in Mexico) but I know for example that in Russia, the birth rate is below the population replacement level now.  I expect it to be the same in the Ukraine.  What we don't really know is how much salary may be under or over reported.  

The $42 number is in line with what I've read previously.  I expect technical professionals in the Ukraine, to have a higher salary and be more educated than most.  I also found a web site where a foreigner living in the Ukraine just guessed that the typical salaries were $100 to $150 in Kiev.

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Taken from KP Post

Coming to grips with tipping

Hey miss frugal, tipping improves service!

The first thing that impressed me about Uk-raine when I arrived here was the hospitality and generosity. I know it sounds condescending and trite, and I don't mean to spew cliches about how "the people here are really wonderful." Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. In nearly half a decade, all that I have been able to determine is that some Ukrainians are really wonderful and some are just plain nasty. Same holds true for Americans. And, yes, even Canadians.

But regardless of whether Ukrainians are "wonderful" or "nasty," all of them seem to have a strong sense of generosity. Whether this is genetic or bred, I can't really say. But I know that if I wanted anything from my Ukrainian friends - be it their monthly salary, a full-course meal, their last cigarette, or first-born child - I would get it. No questions asked. No expectation of repayment.

That's why it surprises me that many of my Ukrainian friends - all of them, in fact - hate to leave a tip in a restaurant. Usually, they will grudgingly do it if there are Westerners at the table. But on those occasions, the tip tends to be a couple of hryvna no matter whet the amount of the bill. I have had friends suggest leaving Hr 2 when the bill was more than Hr 200 - that's 1 percent.

Their tipping system has nothing to do with the level of service, unless service was average or bad, then they often see it as a way out of having to tip.

I have been known to leave a really small tip or no tip at all when service has been horrendous. If a waitress is outright mean, if the food takes hours for no reason, if some sort of bodily injury occurred, I would not hesitate to express my disappointment in the form of a dismal tip.

But that is rarely the case. Even if the service and food is mediocre - as is often the case at Kyiv restaurants - I tip at least 10 percent. This causes some of my friends to grab the money, throw it back at me and hiss that if I tip so much, soon all the waiters and waitresses will expect a good tip.

Great! Maybe then all the waiters and waitress will also try to earn it.

I think there is a direct correlation between good service and good tipping. In the West, good service is expected - demanded, in fact. And it's rewarded with up to a 20 percent tip. Here tipping is not expected, nor is good service.

When I leave a tip on the table, I am saying to my server: I appreciate your attention and hard work. I know you have a demanding job and make a pathetic salary. I hope this will inspire you to be kind, efficient and even smile occasionally.

And usually, it works.  

- Diana Elliott

I'll pay the bill, but keep my change

Indeed, Ukrainians are known to be hospitable, and recently I discovered a probable answer why. Hundreds of years back, our ancestors had a custom: If you share food with someone, this person will never be your enemy. The rudiments of this custom remain until this day, even though it's no longer conscious. That's why your friend's babushka is doing her best to stuff you with tea and pirozhki when you drop by for five minutes; that's why Kuchma meets Clinton at the airport with bread and salt.

But Ukrainians have never been known as generous. Rather, the Slavic folklore depicts us as a stingy nation. There's a famous anecdote: a Ukrainian is asked "What will you do if you are given an apple?"

"I'll eat it."
"Two apples?"
"I'll eat them."
"A cartload of apples?"
"I'll take a bite of each one."

An exaggeration? Perhaps. If you go to a Ukrainian village, this anecdote becomes almost a reality. Sorry to disappoint you, Diana, but Ukrainians aren't as nice to everyone as they are to their guests.

But we needn't dig that deep to understand why Ukrainians have a problem with tipping. Apparently, the tipping culture is not new to Ukraine. Many Russian literature classics mentioned tipping in their works. In Russian, the term is "davat' na chai" -  to give money for tea. Tea was the favorite beverage in czarist Russia; each inn served tea, and each visitor spent at least an hour a day in a warm company around the samovar.  Naturally, awarding the good service of a coachman, a bartender or a porter with a half-kopek "for tea" was considered appropriate.

Most likely, the custom of tipping died out during Soviet times when both the restaurant food and service were notoriously horrible.

I'm a perestroika child who learned to economize on luxury items - such as restaurants, for example. When I look at the menu and calculate what a terrific dinner I could cook for this money, I'm no longer hungry. And even a Hr 10 tip - just think, 10 kilos of apples! - seems a waste.

When the post-Soviet generation grows up, tipping will become the norm. But hopefully, it'll never come to the absurd point of paying a small tip for horrendous service, as Diana does.

- Anna Kozmina

... in response to Coming to grips with tipping, posted by Cold Warrior on Nov 18, 2001

Americans tip and Russians don't.  Restaurant workers seem to prefer to serve American customers for that reason.  To tip or spend money to gross excess may make you look wasteful, foolish or offensive.  

What would you think if you went to Vegas and some high roller was throwing lots of money around?  I would think his money could be better spent elsewhere rather than flashing it to impress people.  I would also think he was crying out for attention.  I would just give in reasonable proportion to the cost of the meal.  Heck, I had a great dinner for 3 next to the Europa for $26.

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

Dan,

I am sure you have seen and visited some places here in Kiev and elsewhere in the FSU.

I only live here.  Tipping is not a normal behavior for Ukrainians.  Only Americans do it.  Other foreigners with some prodding will do it.  Not many.

And for a minute lets talk about the wages.  I work with some very highly paid Engineers that are Ukrainian on the Chernobyl Project.  The maximum pay is around $200-300 a month.  My Russian lady worked in a dress shop for $85 a month.  It is not uncommon here for wages to be between those numbers.  I would bet you that most don't make more than $50-100 a month and that could be considered a good job.  If you are in business with Ukrainians and paying them more then you are a good sugar daddy.  I am sure they won't argue with you about paying more and won't give any back.

I have lived here for a year now and travel frequently to Kiev.  It is a very expensive place downtown near the center.  Americans and others that come here raise the cost in the center by their extravagant spending habits.  I know.  It makes it hard on others that have to live on limited income. So, my best advice is to be frugal in your spending and stop flashing all that cash.  It makes it harder on us that have to live here full time.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

I agree Americans Tip too much.  I would only tip if I was visiting a great resturant and the service was bery good.  in genearl I think tipping is a bit of an insult.  I troied to tip a girl selling sunglasses in Yalta once as I felt bad that she was bing paid less then 10USD/day.  In the end I realsies this was not a solution and in some ways reduces them to beggers and done plays others (locals) who can not afford to tip.  If you like the service then give them more custom, but best you pay the going rate.

IN one case I heard of a American gave a 1USD tip thinking the poor Ukrainians would benefit.  Hell you can not change a one USD bill that easy.  

If you want to help then talk to the reserve bank and have them change the exchange rate.  Why is Ukraine so badly undersold.  They deserve much better.  But then I guess many would not seam as important or attractive to Ukraine Women if they were paid their worth...

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

Hi Jimmy,

Yes, I know you are living there - and you may recall that I asked you about several people I know that work at that same facility shortly after you first arrived in Ukraine.

Actually, I have done a bit more than simply visit Ukraine. In the course of the past 4 or 5 years, I think my cumulative time is a bit more than 18 months - maybe a lot more. I'll have to add it up sometime. And in that time, I've managed to establish some pretty solid connections within the business community. I am active with the American Chamber of Commerce in Kyiv - have met with government ministers - established relations with numerous local firms, as well as contacts with numerous MNC's doing business in Ukraine - and I also have established connections in a couple of educational institutions (notably, Kyiv PolyTechnic and American International University). So you see, I think I have a pretty well-grounded basis for my understanding of wages and incomes paid in Ukraine. I doubt if anyone - especially the people with whom I am working - would consider me a "sugar daddy."

I've also had the unfortunate experience - just recently - of losing some of the very best people working with me to firms recruiting from outside Ukraine. This loss has forced me to, once again, become directly familiar with the job market and wage conditions.

I'll admit that my market is not the same as you are in - I am not recruiting Nuclear Engineers - or those working in the nuclear industry. I *do* however, have business dealings that take me into the energy and telecommunications sectors pretty regularly - as well as the software development arena. Perhaps this has something to do with the differences in opinion, but I doubt it.

It is interesting to see that you accuse Americans and others with their "extravagant spending habits" as causing the cost of living in Kyiv to be high. I wonder - can you cite a single city that operates as a center of commerce in their country - particularly international commerce - that does not suffer from this same situation?? I am thinking of my experience with Taipei, Jakarta, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and even Washington DC - and I cannot think of a single one that does not have the same problem you cite. I suspect it has far more to do with the international nature of the business conducted - and the centers of government there that lead to the high cost of living - and much less to do with the American influences - and certainly not the casual traveler that is looking for a wife.

You know, we have some really interesting 'discussions' about the economics of travel to central Kyiv. I know, for a fact, that some people pay almost nothing to live in apartments in central Kyiv. Why? They 'own' those apartments having been given them by the former Soviet system. I also know numerous American expatriates whose companies pay more than $3000 per month for their apartments. I also know that hotels range from a low of about $125 per night to much, much more. At the same time, I know what quite a few of my Ukrainian colleagues pay each month for their apartments - and I know the going rate for decent apartments because I periodically look into renting one for our business (no, not commercial property - residential). And I know several apartment owners that rent me their apartments for $50 per night. So tell me - which price point do you consider "extravagant" against that economic landscape??

But in all this, I could be wrong. I don't live there - I only have a huge investment of time, money and energy in the country.

FWIW

- Dan

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

Yes, tipping is not normal, as well as "how can I help you?" attitude. At least I am glad it's getting better and tipping would be one way to introduce it.

Come on. What are you comparing? None of the Ukranians are paid range of expats salary, benefits, travel expenses, per deims. Company does not have to pay for rellocations, bunch of taxes, drivers expenses, interpeter expenses. And they get work done by sometimes even more qualified, better educated workforce who would not dream about raging for discrimination or ask for a pay raise or extra benefits.

Why would not Kiev be an expensive city? You expect Warsaw or Prague to be more expensive, but not Kiev - another tourist center and big city, that just seems odd to me.

As for tipping and spending money. The same way as in USA you get what you pay for. You think you are saving money, but paying $5/hr you get $5 quality... That's all.

... in response to what?, posted by RW on Nov 18, 2001

:)  I think you get more for what you pay for in Ukraine than here.  That $5 quality is much better there than here. :) JMHO in paying $5 there and $5 here

... in response to Disagree, posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

I *think* RW meant that a cheap (by any measure) service will usually result in a sub-standard service.

I have a friend that works in Kyiv and is a trained linguist. He was trained in linguistics by the Soviet military in Moscow and speaks fluent English and Mandarin (in addition to Russian and Ukrainian). He charges substantially more than $5 per hour - and I use him exclusively if I have an important meeting in which I simply cannot afford a mistake. Bottom line - quality costs.

In absolute terms, I know that I get a whale of a lot more for my $500 per month paid to to developers in Ukraine than that same $500 spent here in America. No question about it.

- Dan

... in response to Relative Economics . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

cheap doesn't necessarily mean sub-standard.  Nor does it negate a bargin or sale?  Of course we are not talking about translation services on this board (in general) where multi-million dollar deals hinge on the correct meaning of bargin vs. discount.  I have used several translation services which have ranged substantially in prices, and quite frankly, some of the better ones have cost me substantially less than $5/hr.  The point is, just because you paid $40,000 for a car and someone else pays only $25,000, doesn't necessarily mean you got the better car.  While generally speaking, higher quality does cost more, it is not necessarily always the case. :)  And by any comparison, your right, $500 over there is usually better than $500 over here.

... in response to Point exactly . . ., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

Just because I spent $10,000 more for the same car you have...does not mean that---I have a better car.  NO,  You got the better price,  for the exact same car.  Just because one spends more...does not mean one gets more.  Like,  I just bought a beautiful brand new Ralph Lauren King Duvet,  brand new for $60.00 on Ebay.  At Bloomingdales its $350.  There is no difference between the products,  just like the cars.     Enuf said, Tim

... in response to Re: Point exactly . . .Relatively, posted by tim360z on Nov 19, 2001

I was thinking more along the lines that if I bought a Timex for $20, and you bought a Rolex for $8,000, 25 years later my Timex is still ticking and your Rolex is sitting on a self not working doesn't necessarily mean you had bought the better watch because you paid $7,980 more for it.  No one will argue that you certainly bought the more expensive watch, with the expectation that the quality should be better, but that doesn't mean it keeps better time or will out last the $20 Timex.  Even if the Timex lasts only 5 years, I could buy 15 of them in a life time and still save thousands over you even if your one Rolex lasts 75 years.  Again, more does not always equate to better and is relative to status, price, purpose, and other factors that each person has to weigh.  A $3/hr translator may be very well better than a $20/hr translator although reason might lead us to believe that more is better. JFFT

... in response to Re: Re: Point exactly . . .Relatively mo..., posted by DE on Nov 20, 2001

Yeah DE,

  I agree and I would go with 20 Timex V. 1 Rolex. $$$ In any deal and in any price an item is not worth anything until...someone ponies-up the asking price.  Prior to that one can negotiate.  Like a house,  everyone can tell you its worth 1 million.  What if it sells for 700K??? But,  until someone actually comes and pays 1 million---the value is only a comparative abstraction.  Like 2 years ago a certain stock sold for say $200.  Now,  because of various factors it sells at $8.  Now,  what is the value of that stock item.  What was paid on the day it was sold. The most recent day.  And the price can go up.  And the price can slip.   Next year it could be worth say $100 or $1.  So comparative prices and real values fluctuate on supply and the demand.  If I am selling yo-yo's at $6.99 and nobody's buying.  Then I must do something.  I can either lower my asking price and try to sell more yo-yo's at a smaller profit margin...oooorrrr...I find a scheme to make yo-yo's more attractive and desirable---aka= marketing.  OR,  I take the very high road and I somehow make people beleive that my yo-yo's are...a special limited work of art.  And I sell much less yo-yo's---but I sell a few at $500 each.  So money and value and perceived value are all an abstraction...until someone lays the money down to buy it.  Thats it,  Best,  Tim

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

...Jimmy, thats like comparing the cost of living in downtown San Francisco to Crawford, Texas. Of course it's gonna be more expensive in the city center than a rural area, where in the world isn't it?

And like other places, I certianly think the locals in Kiev appreciate those extra "tourist" dollars and think little as to how it effects those outside Kiev. (They're just looking out for number one again, kinda like *you* are in this case. :-)

Having said all that, I can't simply ignore your opinion. After all, you live there and have the experience. I'll mull this over and who knows? I've changed my thinking before on things....

I'm just not sure it's relevant to the issue at hand, or how it effects us who *don't* live there. I'll still help out those who strike me as unfortunate. It's true that "charity begins at home", but many people here in need are so because of their own doings. Where it isn't, many are still better off than over there, where it seems mostly out of their control.

To answer DE's question, it's people like you that are the reason I keep up with the board. There is nothing like real world, longterm experience, but I have to sift through any bias that may be added and, lol, add it to my own.

I think, as in many cases, DE and I are closer together on this than we are apart. It's just a matter of preferences and the situation at the time.

I still think many here are overly concernd with money and need to evaluate this more closely before they enter into the game.

... in response to Well,...., posted by LP on Nov 18, 2001

This is DEFINATELY not for the underfunded!!!  It does take an enormous amount of long term financial resources, especially once she has arrived.  Granted you can save a few bucks here and there, but in the long run, you've got to accept that three or more trips will be involved, plus all the enormus initial costs of intergrating her into your life (clothes, dental, entertainment, wedding, English lessons) and you into hers (family communication, support, visits).  This ain't cheap by anyone's standards and if you're looking for cheap, go with AW.  Trying to go cheap here will cost you more in the long run.

... in response to Agree again...., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

What's going on ???? --smile--

- Dan

... in response to Agree again...., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

You don't have to be super rich to do this.  I swear alot of you guys seem to think this is only a rich mans adventure.

It probably is if you plan on taking her shopping every weekend. = Sugar Daddy.

But if you looking for a companion for life. Sticking all that money in her face and tossing it out the window with giving everyone a tip.

In America we have been sucker into this logic of giving away our hard earned money in the form of a tip.  This is pure and simple nonsense, totally wasteful and inflationairy.

The employees should be paid on a scale by the company on a reward system.  Having the customer foot the bill for good service is nonsenses... Where do you tip people most?

At Resturants.  When was the last time you tipped someone at McDonalds or Wal-Mart.  When you tip, your in the company of someone special and you want to relay to them via finanical means that your a nice guy.

To me, your a chump.  I do alot of work for some very rich people...and they rarely tip.  Because they know the value of the $$$, most people don't.

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

..know the value of money, I wouldn't have any would I?

The value of the dollar does not change whether one is poor or not. Me thinks the rich people you do work for are cheap, plain and simple.

Wait staff greatly rely on tips to supplement their income, thats the way it is. McDonalds or Walmart??  lol...Your entire post reeks of the CB syndrome.

Oh, and btw, this chump's money is not very hard earned.
See, I get paid for what I know, not what I do. (Thats why you're working hard and the folks who don't tip you aren't.)

Btw, the benefits of being a sugar daddy aren't so bad, you oughta try it.

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

Bill,
You are nuts if you think most people don't tip (where appropriate).  Certainly people don't tip for a windsheild replacment, but while dinning, at a car wash, a bellhop, parking lot driver ect I would seriously doubt that the majority don't tip.  I am sure you get GREAT service from those I mentioned.  You are just justifying being a cheap arse.
KenC

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

Did you have a bad day?  Read a little slower and repeat after me....I'm not a chump.....I'm not a chump.....

wsbill, I'd be more than happy to tip you if you replaced my windshield.  But maybe your service is not of such that deserves a tip?  And maybe you're making more than minimum wage?  Or maybe, you're just a chump?

I agree that there is way to much emphesis on tipping here in America.  In fact, the restruant industry DEMANDS it.  I don't like this "I'm entitled to a tip, and expect one" anymore than you do.  However, we are talking about Ukraine where tips are not expected.  It actually is an opportunity as LP elluded to, to give what amounts to so little to a waitress in Ukraine, or a cab driver, or a translator a little something extra for their service IF it is above the norm.  Believe it or not, they actually serve you [unlike many of the professions here that expect a tip (now we can wsbill to the list) yet view you as a burden] there in Ukraine and value you as a patron!

Earlier I look the opposite side of Cherokee only to try an add some balance to his post.  His statement elluding to someone seeking to find an interpreter for no more than $5/hour was being a tight wad needed some buffering.  For example, if I used the translator 14 hours per day for 14 days on a trip, $5/hr is way to much.  Most will do it for $20/day.  The point is, if I used your service for two weeks and contracted you for the two weeks to be available 14 hours a day and pay you $280, vs. if I used your service for $5/hr and used them for a total of 56 total hours over two weeks, I'd still be paying you $280, but you'd have more free time to contract with more of us Americans.  Therefore, slamming someone (or in general) for asking for an interpreter for $5/hr was BS.

Or, so I thought until I read your post.  Now, I understand what Cherokee was referring to.  As for the value of the dollar, or whether or not this is a rich man's adventure, I believe LP made that point as it is all relative and as Dan said, a personal choice.  If you're Bill Gates, this might be a poor man's adventure.  But it definately isn't for someone that lives pay check to pay check like many Americans do (including many single men).  The intent wasn't to imply it was a rich man's adventure (of course we might be considered rich by many to be able to spend money to meet women half way around the world), the point was that you should plan on investing significant funds to be well financed in case things don't go well on the first trip (which is totally stupid thinking that you'll meet Ms. Right in two weeks and even if you did, ask her to marry you).  I don't think anyone implied that you had to be "super rich", except you.

So, makes you wonder who the chump really is?  Repeat after me....I'm not a chump....I'm not a chump....

... in response to Geez......, posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

....At times you make so much sense, I may have to rethink
my position about you folks up there in Sac. lol..Clearly not "buick" thinking. Well said.

... in response to Re: Bullpoop...alot depends on where  yo..., posted by wsbill on Nov 18, 2001

I think you took the comment about this endeavor not being for the underfunded too literaly.  While you may not have to be super rich or just rich to do this, you certainly do have to be able to afford this properly.  I have a friend who would definately qualify as unfunded (yes, unfunded, not underfunded) who thinks I'm crazy for wanting to take the time to do this right.  He thinks I'm crazy for having invested in a second trip and does not understand why I see the need for additional trips to make sure I have a good relationship before brining someone over.

... in response to Let's Understand Tipping, posted by Jimmy on Nov 18, 2001

.

... in response to Tipping and Wages in the FSU . . ., posted by Dan on Nov 18, 2001

...about tipping Danny. It's about giving without expectation of receiving anything. When you tip you're paying for a service, I'm arguing that helping people who live in a place where they need it, and expecting nothing in return other than the good feeling one get's (a bargain IMHO), has little to do with scammers. The old lady selling smokes on the corner, the cab drivers, the university students working as wait staff (or helping us), all these people aren't MOB scammers.

As for the real scammers, it seems everyone blames the bad guys. If you get scammed, it's usually because *you* did something wrong. In my LEO days, I was always amazed at how little "victim responsibilty" was taken in any kind of con game.

Over and over again, some of these guys harp about money. Is she asking for it? Do she have it? What will I get outta it? Should I pry loose a few bucks if she's not "the one"?? Who cares?? If you're gonna worry about money, better do it *after* she gets here, because thats when she'll tag you good.

At least Quasimoto has a kind heart, many of the rest seem to be as cheap as they come. If you don't have the cash, stay out. If you have enough to travel there, you have enough to help a few unfortunate folks with what amounts to peanuts for you, but much to them. Doesn't our respect for these people/culture/situation extend *beyond* the individual women we're dealing with?

Helping them out changes nothing in the big scheme of things but helps everyone, icluding the person giving, on an individual level.
*Thats* what I'm "buying", and a good deal it is for all involved.

Like I said, tightwads.

... in response to It isn't only...., posted by LP on Nov 18, 2001

and why I enjoy reading some of your posts.  But, just because I may tip a waiter or waitress over there $2 and you tip them $20, doesn't mean I have an expectation of getting someting in return for it.  And quite frankly, it doesn't make me feel better as a person to give them 20 instead of 2 or 10 instead of 5.  It's about giving without the expectation of return and most of the time a compensation for service that is viewed above the norm.  The original post had to do with paying $5 for translating.  Hey, pay what you want, you can get excellent tranlation for more than $5/hr. and you can get excellent translation for less than $5/hr.  The fact you pay less than $5/hr doesn't make you a cheap bastard, just as it doesn't mean you have more money than brains if you pay more. PERIOD.

... in response to Fair nuff.....n/t, posted by LP on Nov 18, 2001

....Sure, you can get the same service for less than a certain amount as your example for translating states, but you're looking at the value of the service. You won't get better translation if you pay more, but the difference will effect *them* more and thats the point I was trying to make.

You look at it as what value you get for the service your paying for. I'm talkin about adding some to it for pure charitable reasons, for nothing at all other than to help them out. (The babuska selling smokes, for example, provides little in the way of service.)

If $2 does it, I envy you. I'm afraid my soul requires a larger donation because I owe so much on it. :-)

... in response to Then again...., posted by LP on Nov 18, 2001

I do smoke and I DO typically purchase my smokes from the ladies sitting out in the cold rather than the big kiosks.  I usually tell them to keep the change (not the bills though).  I certainly try to support those that are trying to do something to make a living, than those that have the finances behind them to operate the large stores and restruants.  I agree also that tipping the waitress goes an extremly long way towards showing gratitude.  A couple of examples of this was

1)when I was in Kharkov, I really like going to the Blues Cafe for dinner.  My first evening there, I tipped the waitress 10 Grevina (slightly less than $2).  When I returned the next evening and sat in a different location, she immeadiately (out running the other waitresses) came to my table to wait on me.  Again I tipped her 10 Grivina.  The third night, I told her I would be bringing a date with me on the forth night.  She asked me which table I would like.  I pointed to a table and sure enough, on the forth night the table was reserved with a sign, it had a tall candle on it burning (only one on any of the tables) and we had the only table with linen knapkins and a linen table cloth!  She tried to make it as romantic as possible.  She asked if it was to bright in there.  I said a little.  Before you knew, she had walked over to the dimmer switch, without even so much as checking with any of the other patrons and dimmed the lights WAY down.  Everyone else was looking around at us and I can only imagine what they were saying or thinking.  Yes, I did even tip her more that night (although I will confess it wasn't $20).

2)Another experience was when I went to the Steak House in Kiev.  I took two ladies with me and we had great steak dinners, drank several bottles of champagne and was still having a good time long after all the other clients had left.  In fact, it was just the owner left and us as he had sent all the watiers and waitresses home.  When the bill came, I paid it and left an extra $15.  As we were leaving, the owner came running after me saying I forgot my change!  I told him it was my way of thanking him for allowing us to enjoy our evening way after he would have normally closed and never attempting to make us feel as if we had to leave.

Which I guess in our fundalmental beliefs, do make us closer together in being chatitable.  I also make it a habit to give away all my change (and you end up accumating quite a lot of change) to the old ladies looking for handouts near the subway entrances on my last day.  No, I don't give them the dollars or Ukrainain bills, so if this makes me a cheap skate, than a cheap skate I am and you can now in all future threads refer to me as such:).

... in response to Re: Then again...., posted by DE on Nov 18, 2001

....I guess I got you all wrong. It isn't the amount, it's the principle. It costs you very little yet it makes a difference in their lives.

Nothing cheap about that.....