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My wife and I are seriously considering moving to Ukraine, as our jobs allow us to do this. So work is not an issue. Although my wife is Ukrainian, she has never "moved there," so I was wondering if anybody has had experience with furniture movers, customs regs etc. Please don't turn this into a "merits of moving to Ukraine" thread. Also, if I read the legalese correctly, she only has to be present 3 of the 5 yeatrs leading up to getting her citizenship. Anyone have experience with a similar situation? Thanks.

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

If you move to another country you should still consider leaving assets in the United States.  You would still pay taxes on your US income but since a lot of other countries have currency fluctuation problems, (like Russia, Ukraine and Brazil), it is safer to leave your money and invest in a stable place like the US.  

You're probably forgetting that a lot of Russian pensioners had their savings wiped out by hyperinflation after the split up of the FSU.  If you take your life savings over there and put in a Ukrainian bank, that could happen to your life savings.  The banking systems over there have stability problems too.  Some foreign banks offer dollar denominated accounts but in Ukraine?  

I have another philosophy too, go where the money is made (unless it's California).  That applies within the US or worldwide.  Of course, some US companies offer really sweet expatriot deals.  I know some guys that got over 100K, plus apartment, per diem expenses, plus cheap maid service.  Not many deals like that are around any more.  Some people do like to retire in other countries and live like a king for a lot less money.

Health care is another issue.  FSU doctors are not as well trained.  Health care in Europe may be cheap or free but it's not as good as what we have in any country over there that I've read about.  Basic care is all you get.  I was very sick earlier in the year an I really appreciated the care I got but I hated the price I had to pay.  

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

Hey do not listen to the "Why would you do that" argumnets.  I travel a lot in my business Europe and Australia are my favorite destinations but I would love to stay in Ukraine if I could find a good job that paid well.  

With the level of eductaion and computer skills to be found in Ukraione I have often thought it would be a goiod resource/location for code development,  Far out weighs India.  Just needs some good project management, support and contracts.  I met a few guys from Switzerland and Candada while I was ther and I must agree the oppotunities are good if youy can get the contracts.  Big If.

I hope all goes well and maybe one day I can join you.

jj

... in response to Sounds good to me., posted by jj on Oct 24, 2001

jj do you think there would be a demand for computer programmers in kiev or ukraine and if so what type of pay could these guys expect?

... in response to Re: Sounds good to me., posted by ron on Oct 24, 2001

There is excellent demand for *good* computer programmers. There is also a very large supply of excellent programmers in Ukraine. I have some of them working for my company right now.

If you want to see a VERY good report about the overall economic situation in Russia (and Ukraine is almost identical), go to McKinsey Consultant's website and look for their report on the Russian economy conduxcted in 1999, I believe. There is a section on "Offshore Programming" that describes very well the situation for programmers. There are also numerous firms that have recognized the potential for delivering "Offshore Programming" services toe Europe and the world, and the valuable resources available to them in the hard-working and intelligent Ukrainian programmers/developers.

JJ is absolutely correct about the issue of needing good Project Management support, however. As my business is principally-centered around consulting, training and mentoring in the art and science of Project Management, I am keenly aware of the lack of those skills in Ukraine right now.

Finally, as for pay - I can find first-rate programmers/developers in Ukraine right now ranging from $500/month to $1,500/month. The best come from Kyiv Polytechnic Institute - though the schools in Lviv are now turning out some of the best programmers in all of Europe.

I hope this helps.

- Dan

... in response to "Offshore Programming" . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 24, 2001

The skill base in Ulraine is excellent.  The level of eductaion is bery high they just lack a fall understanding of the project and business skills.  I sincereel believe that the quaility of work in Russia/Ukraine is fara far better then that comming out of India.  Indisa has one advantage in that they "can speak English".  I have tried to discuss the option of outsourcing to Russia/Ukraine and whilst there is a high recognition of the skills there is a significant distrust. Most of the best hackers come from FSU.  A good project management team would need to keep on top of the techincal development/code and put in place security reviews to establish and maintain confidence.

Putting this aside apaty from the economics I personally would very much like to live in Ukraine doe a spell.  I am a realist and not blind to the facts and difficties facing these countries.  I think there is potential and if the economic hole is not too deep much potential.  Many good code cutters are being "brain drained" but there are many also committed to staying for various reasons.  

Does anyone know of any major committements to out sourcing development to FSU?

jj

... in response to "Offshore Programming" . . ., posted by Dan on Oct 24, 2001

thanks dan

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

that terrorists would use smallpox as a weapon against us.  This "might" kill 500 Americans, but WOULD kill 500 million third world people quickly.  Of course, the terrorists would state that "it is the will of Allah!".

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

There are a number of large international moving companies, that work in Ukraine.  My employer covered my move, and that is the best way to go since it is pretty expensive to get things there.  The most widely known moving company working there is Corstjens--they do the whole diplomatic community and are top notch.

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

This thought (moving to Ukraine) has crossed my mind recently, too. I am greatly concerned that the U.S. may be attacked with smallpox and perhaps other biological weapons which are worse. The U.S. government is ordering 300 million doses of small pox vaccine (Tommy Thompson, Sec. of Health and Human Services, reported last week in the N.Y. Times). We are all going to be vaccinated, but we are extremely vulnerable right now. A childhood vaccine is only effective for ten years. Virtually no one in the U.S. has been vaccinated for smallpox since 1972. It will take a year or two for the 300 million doses to be ready. I don't know if you have read about smallpox, but it kills 30 to 50 percent of those infected, spreads like wildfire and horribly disfigures the survivors. It once killed a third of Europe's population.

I wonder if Ukraine would be safer for the two of us? I wonder if Ukrainian citizens are vaccinated for smallpox. I doubt it. I don't know if any place would be safe.

Face it, we are being attacked right now-- it's biological warfare directed at Western Civilization. Now it is anthrax bacteria, tomorrow it may be smallpox or ebola [all, and more, developed by the Russians (mainly-- also Iraqis, etc.)] in their biological weapons program).

I wonder what people's thoughts are...

... in response to Re: moving to ukraine/biological warfare, posted by Scaught on Oct 23, 2001

Fight fire with fire.  
 
I would never want anyone to use chemical or biological warfare on anyone but it makes me mad that we must deal with this bull.  I just have this impulse to say "Okay then,  You want to play rough then we can play rough too."  Really send over some serious biological spit on those people.

Of course this is total lunacy to think that way along with any kind of nuclear retaliation but if they knew that they would be wiped off the face of this earth with zero chance of survival maybe they would give some serious consideration to pulling stunts like Sept.11

The real problem is that this network exists in any number of different countries like tentacles and you cannot kill it by simply striking it at the heart.  All you will accomplish is giving them martrys and strengthening their already radical beliefs.  Besides, you must give consideration that Uzbekistan, Russia, Ukraine etc... are not that far away and I would not want to endanger those people whom I already feel linked with anyway.

Just a little bit "O" Redneck showing I guess.

... in response to Re: moving to ukraine/biological warfare, posted by Scaught on Oct 23, 2001

I believe it is people that think like that, that makes the terrorists believe that they are succeeding in their objective.  This country is full of weak and gutless cowards that make it ripe for terrorism!  Are you afraid to give your life in sacrafice for the freedoms that your forefathers gave their lives for?  Yeah, lets all be a bunch of fair weather Americans and run with our tails between our legs at the first sign that POSSIBLY WE MAY HAVE TO make a SACRAFICE (such as our lives) for the freedoms we have enjoyed for so many years!  If anyone believes that this country isn't worth dying for, than maybe they shouldn't be here?

Sure....its okay as long as its someone else's son that sacrafice's his life half way around the planet so we can enjoy our comfortable lives.  But as soon as OUR life could be threatened, yeah, bail on America and let the terrorists believe that this country is full of cowards.  Anyone thinking of abandoning America in her time of need should be hung for treason!  Maybe some people have forgot what it is to have the PRIVILAGE to be a citizen of the US and what YOUR duty is (yes, even as a civilian) to protect and defend this country and our way of life!  Yeah, I know, its always somebody else's responsibility, not ours personally.  Everybody in this country should be jumping on planes booking them to capacity to send a clear message, you may kill ME, but you will not kill what I stand for!  I've taken several flights since the attacks, and I'm now planning my next Ukraine trip.  At the end of each flight, I've thanked the crews for their devotion and courage to send a clear message that we will not be terrorized!

And finally, what the heck is this idea about running to Ukraine?  What, you think that IF they could defeat America with bio-terrorism, that they are just going to stop there?  I got news for you buddy, Ukraine is not an Islamic country!  How long do you think it will be before your wife would have to start wearing a veil?  Do you think for one second that if they could defeat America (the ONLY super power left) that they will just shut down their terrorist activities and leave the rest of the western world and what we stand for alone?  Get real, yeah, maybe Ukraine isn't in the top ten of targets, but do you really think Ukrainian women want the life of a radical Islamic lifestyle?  Their whole gig is not just the fact that they hate the US, they believe that radical fundalmental Islamic life as they interpret it to be should be world wide (that includes Ukraine).  Maybe you should think about moving to Iran or Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or some other Islamic country if you want to save your own skin?  COWARD is all I have to say!

Just my 2 cents since you asked.

... in response to Personally...., posted by DE on Oct 23, 2001

Good post DE. I agree. Those who are not willing to defend freedom with their own life are not worthy of its blessings. And you correctly recognize the scope of the problem - it is a classic clash of culture, regions, religions and peoples. Things will eventually calm down, power will be more consolidated on a national and international level, there will be a temporary peace in the Middle East and then....

... in response to Personally...., posted by DE on Oct 23, 2001

...Spare us the flag waving. You have to define "this country" and "way of life" first. The two are closely linked to our government, and for *sure* aren't worth dying for. The "way of life" you're sputtering about died long ago for all but the fat cats in Washington. The vast majority of us
struggle daily and don't have very much to show for it.

I agree this country is full of weak and gutless cowards.
Weak and gutless enough to permit the continual raping of our civil liberties by our own leaders which, thanks to the most massive intelligence and law enforcement failure since Pearl Harbor, is now being accelerated at an even greater pace.

Had our "leaders" remained in control of this nation's borders, had they been doing they're jobs and paying attention to the people who elected them instead of special interests, none of this would have happened. America is going down the toilet in so many ways, one can't even keep up with it, and while the despicable folks we "elect" are the original cause, it's we who allow them to get away with it that shoulder the blame today.

The end result of our response to Bin Laden will only be a new generation of terrorists as it will elevate him higher among the "faithful". (He was basicily a fanatic with limited followers until Clinton attacked him a few years back.)That new generation of terrorists may well include Americans like Tim McVeigh, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the current anthrax situation is domestic in nature.

After all, it's what a terrorist really wants, to get the government of the country attacked to anger it's own people enough to cause domestic problems. It's *exactly* the same thing we are hoping the Afghan people will do at present.

The government's not an evil living breathing entity, it's people. Sure, I'm appalled that the worker bees are the ones who die while the slime in power continue to screw us, but thats *our* fault. So stop whining at the hapless fools among us, for you seem as misguided as they.

Spare us the simplistic patriotic rhetoric. If you had any more guts than the rest of them, you would be directing your anger at the scum in Washington who have ruined this country and made it far from worth dying for. Look at how they scattered like rats and shut the government down last week instead of showing some fortitude by staying at the helm. This is the "country" and "way of life", you're so proud of? Makes me wanna puke.

There is a very thin line between terrorists and patriots.
I don't approve of McVeigh's methods, but I certainly understand his motivations. Me thinks you need to brush up on US history. Many "innocents" died at the hands of our "founding fathers", who would be appalled at what this country has become.

It's people with these narrow mindsets who, like our leaders, believe all such attacks are by "nuts", instead of looking deeper for the real root causes.

But no, like most Americans, they're *way* to arrogant for that. They believe everything that we do in the world to make people hate us so much as to do such extreme things, is correct, justified and proper. Some even believe it's "God's will" for the USA to run the world, these people are the *real* nuts.

I fly almost daily. In fact, I'm the one driving. It's plenty safe, so I suggest you direct your "bravery" toward making a real change here at home, where the true problems lie, instead of bashing those intelligent enough to avoid being political automatons.

... in response to Oh please....., posted by LP on Oct 24, 2001

n/h

... in response to Oh please....., posted by LP on Oct 24, 2001

You fail to see the things that are truly important. The fact that you're still breathing is one of them.

Haven't you had a decent life ? Haven't you had a life without hunger or poverty ? Don't you have a home ? Don't you have a job and a means of employment ? Don't you have good health ?

Why do you burdon yourself with the greed and envy of others ? By doing so, don't you become one of them ? You are so harsh in your attacks and criticism others you fail to realize your own faults.

You should be rejoicing and celebrating your prosperous life, not blaming the world because you don't get your way.

Also, America is the most prosperous nation on Earth in part because it's also the most generous.

All of us face the prospect of death. It's inevitable. Now that we are at war, it's possible that some of us could fall victims of our enemy.

I cherish my life. I have had a good life so far. I don't blame the world for my shortcomings, I blame myself. God has blessed my with a good life. For that I'm truly grateful.

-blm

... in response to No wonder you're so unhappy and cynical, posted by BarryM on Oct 24, 2001

...lol, Yeah OK, just a little.

Unhappy? Hardly. Got a good job, lotsa dough, free travel,
nice car, Harley, my own airplane, and a sweet young thing to keep me warm. (And she's not 5000 miles away.) Guess I have it all, except house payments, car payments or credit card bills. In fact, payments of any kind. Don't have any of those, darn it.

As I've said before, I've no malice in my posts and never intend to be "vicious". My problem is an honest nature that manifests itself as a lack of tact. I'm working on it, so don't take it personal.

I wasn't refering to the current state of affairs, we've been getting screwed for years by *all* of them. I have no affiliation with any of them. I'll admit, George W *is* an uneducated buffoon, but at least this renders him relatively harmless. I could care less about any of them.

....Haven't you had a decent life ? Haven't you had a life without hunger or poverty ? Don't you have a home ? Don't you have a job and a means of employment ? Don't you have good health ?....

Yes, to all of the above. Guess who is responsible for it all? Not God, nor the Government (in fact, it was a hindrance), but *me*. It has always been me and always will be. What's the problem, you don't have that same control?

Maybe you should stop giving some of it away. In fact, if you had as much faith in yourself as you do your God, you probally wouldn't be here at all.

....You should be rejoicing and celebrating your prosperous life, not blaming the world because you don't get your way...

Rejoicing? Yeah OK. Thats one word for it, but not the one I'd use. I don't blame anyone for me not getting my "way", but thats not a typical senario. I do what it takes to make things happen *without* hurting anyone. Can't say the same for the IRA, Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, abortion activists, tree huggers, etc.

Religion is the source for most of the world's misery, past, present and future. All of you think your way is God's only way and won't budge a twit on it. Give me a break. I'm not an Uzi toting, Islamic hating fanatic who's beliefs and political preesures are half the reason we're in this mess in the first place.

Like WmGo, I agree completely that the principles of the Constitution are worth dying for, all the more reason to focus on it's *true* enemy. You make a great case for the "We The Sheeple" point of view.

I'm not against the current action. After all, we were attacked. I was simply pointing out the gu'ment made it easy for them. Funny, I don't see anyone in the Intel or FBI community stepping down or even admiting any wrong doing in the face of such a debacle. Hey, don't preach to me. I've got people dead in this, and the blame is far from being totally 'ole Bin's fault. Forget it, I see the point of my original post was lost on you.

DE can wave his flag. He's certainly not alone in his delusion. (lol...I didn't press for stronger cockpit doors and that somehow makes *me* responsible. About what I'd expect from a private holder.) I'm far from unpatriotic, on the contrary, I just think patriotism needs to stand for something more than supporting a bunch of fools and criminals.

A recent poll showed the people's faith that the government can always be trusted to do the "right thing" has risen 70% in the last year. Like they did at Ruby Ridge, where they gunned down a woman and her child for no reason whatsoever. Like they did at Waco, where they fabricated lies to cover their gross misconduct. (Say, I bet you also didn't recognize that "church" or "religion" either)

Of course, like I said before, the civilians involved in these incidents were just "nut cases", right? Just an isolated few, the rest of us are happy as clams. If all that doesn't worry you, nothing will.

It's OK. You believe what ya want. Me too. I guess that's one thing they haven't tried to take away from us....Yet.

... in response to Cynical?...., posted by LP on Oct 25, 2001

Lp LP lppppppppppppppp
come to your Papa.............I know you are reaching out. I am here for son.
Love Daddy Joe

... in response to Oh please....., posted by LP on Oct 24, 2001

Speak for yourself LP!

Take a look at the map of the county by county vote in the November 2000 election. Ninety percent of the counties voted for Bush  - in those places there *is* a way of life worth dying for. And certainly, the United States Constitution and the principles upon which it stands *are* worth dying for.

In a way LP I think I understand your thoughts. But they are misplaced. I have been a major critic of American foreign policy since my teenage years. And as a conservative libertarian I abhor big government. But the simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely nothing America has ever done or failed to do that justified the terror attack of September 11. This fight, which unfortunately *is* war, represents the classic historical clash of cultures, peoples and religions that are totally different from one another. The Arab and Islamic world correctly criticizes the West for its moral debauchery (as you have seen me do here many times)and preoccupation with materialism. But that is exactly where they are hypocritical. In those lands people treat people like they are somehow less than human. Their leaders are despots without humanity. They have no real freedom as we know it in the West, and as we all know woman are treated like chattel property, while the rich oppress the poor. In terms of morality, even with its moral decline the past four decades America is *still* the most moral country on Earth - and that has ever existed. So the Arab and Islamic countries are completely hypocritical when they criticize the moral environment of America. Heck, they are not even familiar with what most of us are really like.

Everyone wants our money and help, demands it, takes it and then never reciprocates. They only harbor resentment. Why? It is called jealousy. They are jealous for what we have materially. They despise freedom. And they are jealous of our might and power.

Because they have corrupt governments (which they seem to like) and blaspheme the Creator and seek to do evil against His people they suffer with poverty, disease, war, famine and discontent. That is *their* fault, not ours.

They should count their blessings that America still is the most moral nation on Earth; if we weren't we would incinerate them from Casablanca to Islamabad. We have that kind of power.

Best regards.

WmGo

... in response to Oh please....., posted by LP on Oct 24, 2001

You've been flying a little to high in an under pressurized cockpit.  You say the government is to blame for not watching close enough our borders, than you say it wouldn't suprise you that the Antrax issue may be a result of someone in America like Tim McVeigh (I take that to mean Antrax spread by Americans).  If that's the case, it really wouldn't matter how much they wacthed our borders, would it?  In fact, the terrorists could have just hijacked international planes heading for America and slammed them into the buildings.  London to LA would still have had enough fuel on board to do a lot of damage by the time it hit the east coast.  In addition, there are plenty of flights from Canada.  So your blame of the government is totally inrresponsible since if there is a desire to attack us, they will find a way!!  Like many other Americans, you believe its always someone else's fault and of course blaming the government is easy.  What were you doing to advocate stronger cockpit security doors prior to these attacks??  Maybe we should blame pilots for their failure to refuse to fly without tighter airplane and airport security measures.  And yes LP, that includes YOU!  So, go suck some O2 and quit blaming others for what you should share as part of the problem!  And quite frankly, waving a flag is a heck of a lot better than your rhetoric!

... in response to Re: moving to ukraine/biological warfare, posted by Scaught on Oct 23, 2001

I feel this type of answer is silly to say the least.  Your chances on getting hit by biological warfare are slim compared to the many issues involved in moving to the Ukraine.  Why not talk about the poor health system, the corruption at all levels that runs so deep.  The simple issue of pollution and poor living conditions...  I mean come on they shut your water off in Lugansk at 11:00 at night and your lucky to get hot water.  With all the little issues that make life so hard in the Ukraine and here we have someone whom want to run from the greatest country in the world because someone coward threatens his life.   Stand up boy and be a man. :o)    
My one cent…

... in response to Re: moving to ukraine/biological warfare, posted by Scaught on Oct 23, 2001

My fiancee tells me there are cases of anthrax in Russia in her town too. I have not seen this published anywhere, and I suspect the Russian government will be quiet about these things as usual.

I don't think there is anywhere on the planet where you will be safe. We have a rough ride ahead of us, because we were caught sleeping.

All we can do is stay alert, and pray.

... in response to moving to ukraine, posted by timm on Oct 23, 2001

I know that he is working in Kiev area for the past year or so.  I think maybe he can help you with a few details but probably won't be able to help you out on every issue.  I am sure he would be happy to help.

... in response to Contact "Jimmy" from this boar..., posted by Oatmeal on Oct 23, 2001

Yes, I am still here in Ukraine.  I am just as worried about the state of affairs as most of you.  I have thought about staying here and not returning home but I have young childen living in the US and would want to be with them during any frightening times.  So, I am working towards going back home sometime early next year.  I need to figure out how to get Elena home with me.  The K-1 visa seems attractive but I need advice.  Marry her here or US?  Which is a better way?

I hope you are all OK and my heart and prayers go out to you.  If you need any help or advise then please contact me.  Life is not easy here and it will be difficult to transition here without help.  But I am here to do what I can.  Let me know.

Best Regards,

Jimmy
Ukraine