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Hi guys,
I'm new to this board and would like some advice/ pass on some of my observations.

For several weeks now I've been in contact with several girls from the Ukraine who I contacted though a online dating agency off the internet.A high proportion of the girls I contacted replied, something around 80% or so. We've exchanged photo's and a few letters but several things struck me.

- the photo's most of these girls have sent appear to have been taken by a professional photographer and the girls look quite attractive. Half of me says they do this to increase there chance of finding a guy, the other half says maybe they are fake photos?

- I recieve long emails, they talk alot about love etc and what they like in a man, however they is little in the way of detail such as their job specifics or there families. Somehow I feel that these letters are 'generic' letters which they send to everybody, ie they are stock letters they buy off the supermarket shelf. Is this just me or is it because they have to use a translation service? To be honest though, I've also sent girls the same letters to save writing one twice.

I hear of scams etc although none of the girls has asked for money I worry that this may be their end game. Another girl from the FSU I was tlaking to on ICQ disappeared really quickly once I told her i was planning to visit there in November.

So guys, should I worry or just play it by ear?

thanks

jimbo

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Although I met my wife through kiss.com, a large percentage of the women are through agencies who will hit you up for money really quick.  I would stay away from those and concentrate on women that you can establish direct communication.  Regarding professional photos, I wouldn't be too concerned, when you meet these women in person you will find they usually look a lot better than the glossy photos.

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Hi Newbie:

I have spent time on several internet sites for mail order brides and they really do not work.  Sometimes you could have a 70 year old write to you with a 20-25 year old's photo.  The point I am trying to make is that you cannot trust someone over the internet.  There has been times when I have trusted someone and gotten scammed.  Finally, I realized that I wasted so much time on the internet searching and searching and still did not find someone.  Empty promises, scammers, gold diggers, you name it, I have heard it all.  Read other postings on this site and you will understand.  From my experience, internet way of finding someone is a waste of time.  Words of Wisdom:  Forget the internet and visit these countries.  Go through marriage agencies or post a classified detailing your requirements.  There are no games involved when you meet a girl over a cup of coffee or dinner, no girl can scam you or play games.  Nothing like a face to face confrontation.  My 2 cents.  If you still do not heed to my words of wisdom, you will discover on your own that I was right.

... in response to Words of wisdom: A Newbie's Observations, posted by stud muffin on Oct 1, 2001

Studly, your cynical attempts at being cute are not working! Try another board for amusement.

... in response to Words of wisdom: A Newbie's Observations, posted by stud muffin on Oct 1, 2001

Hay Stud Muffin,
It sounds as if you know what you're talking about, as if you have a long experience, and I think you're quite right (see my yesterday's post).
But in your profile you claim to be searching since last month!? I wonder...
Harald

... in response to According to your profile you're a newbe..., posted by Harry88 on Oct 1, 2001

Harry:

I have been on this site since Sept.2001, however I have had experiences with these girls since I was a teenager.  So, I know what I am talking about, otherwise I would not be saying such things. We all need to help each other, brother.

... in response to Words of wisdom: A Newbie's Observations, posted by stud muffin on Oct 1, 2001

I've just received my first scam letter, after 2 generic emails I've been asked for money to help with correspondence. In addition, 3 girls I contacted through kiss.com all produced the same reply! I'm sending this to the scam sites tonight, however I can post the ID numbers here if you like. I'd agree with you, there are just too many scammers out there, you'll end up not trusting anybody and that just ruins things.

JS

quote from the scam letter---

I am very glad to have an opportunity to write you again. The agency
allowed me to write you my letter without payment. Dear *******, I am
so sorry, but it is difficult for me to pay for our correspondence.
You know, I don't like to ask, maybe because I am a modest but it would
be nice if you can help me to pay for correspondence's expenses. I would
like to know you much better and to continue our lettering. I will send  
you my home address, if you wish,  but Internet is the fastest way to
communicate. I will be waiting for your letter impatiently. Irina promised
to inform me about your message at once.
Kiss you

... in response to Re: Words of wisdom: True and confirmed!..., posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

Jim:  

I have received your exact letter from marriage agencies in Ukraine when I was corresponding with girls on www.absoluteagency.com.  Looks like they just do a copy and paste.  I am wondering now if the marriage agencies/interpreter gets a percentage of the scam profits.  Scum bags! Just be careful, Brother.

... in response to Re: Re: Words of wisdom: True and confir..., posted by stud muffin on Oct 1, 2001

Here's the letter from before the actual money question
quote-----

                How are you?  I hope you are very well. I am very interested in  
                knowing more about you. Let me tell you some things about myself:
                I am 26, single, I am from Ukraine, having never been married.
                When I marry, it  will be the first and only time. My personality  
                is very calm and  easy to be with.  I prefer to act with  people  
                in a peaceful and  intelligent manner. I like to look at  the  
                world with an open mind.  
                I try to imagine the world, through the eyes of others. I was brought
                up with Christian values and I have respect  others. I have many  
                interests that include nature, sport, reading , animals, and movies.  
                I also enjoy music very much!          
                I see my future husband and myself as a partnership between equals.  
                All important decisions would be discussed and decided by both of us.  
                And when it comes time to have children, the responsibility is also  
                something that we will both share.  I would like to have two or three  
                children. What about you? I think children are fascinating!  And  
                though I realize children are a lot of work, I think they would bring a  
                great sense of satisfaction.
                I am looking for a man who is not afraid to display an emotional  
                personality, especially in times of joy and sorrow.  (I think mostly  
                about the times we will smile and laugh and cuddle.  But I also wonder  
                about the times I may have to wipe away your tears and hold you very  
                tight.  I also think about the times I may need you to wipe away my  
                tears.  I think about a time when we may disagree, and I wonder how we  
                will resolve such things.  I hope these times would end with both of us  
                laughing.  I dream we will both keep our minds open, and we will respect  
                what the others thinks, and even if we did not agree, we would think of  
                the other’s thought as interesting, maybe)  
                So tell me, What do you think?  I will be waiting for your letter impatiently.
                Hope to hear from you very soon. I send you my picture, hope you will like it.  
                Kiss you
                Olga

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Does this ring a bell as wel..., posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

I recieved the same letter from a young girl from Luhansk,her name is Natalie. We corresponded for a coiuple of months, then she quit writing. I guss I am lucky, that I only sent $40 for internet cafe. She never asked for it, but stated that She was not rich.
Bill

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Does this ring a bell as wel..., posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

Yes, brother.  No doubt about it.  Socrat? Right!  Socrat is from Lugansk, Ukraine.  I was careful all the time, but when I blinked I got scammed by another girl from Lugansk.  I got her account deleted with www.absoluteagency.com and called western union to put her on a blacklist.  There is a site on blacklist.  One of the postings here have it.  I read an article, in Lugansk, girls make an average of $500-600 by scamming (especially the young gorgeous ones). .  When a girl asks for money, get rid of her.  Read the article on Lugansk on the "Brama tips on Ukraine" website.  It will make you shudder and shiver.  These people are ruthless.  You could be murdered if you step into Lugansk.  Read that article and you will know what I am saying. The name of the article on that site is "Lugansk: Hell or Paradise".  Be cautious brother.  If you need a woman bad for the night, go to an escort agency and get it over with or go to Las Vegas where the girls are tested for AIDS.  Do not settle for the wrong woman, bro.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Does this ring a bell as..., posted by stud muffin on Oct 1, 2001

Thanks for your advice. I've checked google and found www.brama.com but couldn't find the article Lugansk: Hell or Paradise. Do you have a copy or URL?

thanks

JimS

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: thanks for the tip, ..., posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

Sorry, bud.  Looks like this article has been deleted. If I find it on some site, I will definitely provide the URL.  On the other hand, maybe you can request brama to email you this article.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: thanks for the t..., posted by stud muffin on Oct 2, 2001

What was the general message with this Brama article? Its sounds from what you've said that some guys flying out there get a nasty shock or come to a sticky end.

thanks

JimS

... in response to Re: Words of wisdom: True and confirmed!..., posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

What you show here is not solid proof of scam, but yes it may well be a scam.
On the other hand it's normal to pay an agency for correspondence (and translation sometimes!).
Do I understand well that you are asked to pay the agency, not her? What agency, and are you sure it's not on the blacklist?
Harald

... in response to SCAM: possibly. What agency?, posted by Harry88 on Oct 1, 2001

I found the girl on kiss.com, however when I got a email reply it was introduced by the Socrat agency. The email address was;

socrat2001@ukr.net

thats one of those free email servers like hotmail. They have no web page and google.com doesn't find anything. I received two generic emails which were long but had no detail whatsoever such as her job, family , city etc. I forced her hand by asking her these questions in my last email.

Three girls I found on kiss sent me identical messages including the spelling errors! The girl asking for the money was one of these. I can give you guys the ID numbers, then you can contact them and see what they say?

... in response to Re: it was called SOCRAT Agency, posted by JimS on Oct 1, 2001

Jim S:

See also my above posting on this topic.  Socrat is the agency which sent me the exact letter you got.  The girl who I wrote to, her name is Angela (on www.absoluteagency.com) and the other one's name is Natalia.  I recall they are in the 21-23 year range.  Both are from Lugansk.  Lugansk is the capital of the world for Scammers.  Just be careful.

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Before you get too far into a correspondence with any gal, be sure to get some candid, non-professional photos. They have got some of the best glamour photo, touch-up experts in the Ukraine. They can truly make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Another thing I forgot to mention to look for,
Is that as you further your letter writing with a girl you should be able to get some more non-professional photos from them in casual settings (More genuine photos)  

Also you should be able to get their address and phone numbers.  If you have difficulties with this then I would contact the web-site or marriage agency and find out what the problem is.  Some marriage agencies will try to control your relationship too much and you will want to try to avoid this if at all possible.

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Hey there Jim,
  I don't think you have too much to worry about at this stage.  A lot of marriage agencies will have some professional photos taken of their ladies to make a really good impression and they will also send out the initial "Form" letter to you as well.  What I would be looking for is a couple of things.
  Number one is that if I was interested in a lady I would start asking specific questions about her life (Family, Work, Hobbies, etc...)  Look for specific answers in her replies and also that she uses your name specifically.  I look for instances where she will be answering very specific questions that I ask and nothing too general.
  The second thing is that I would look out for the ladies if they start requesting large amounts of money.  I think it is okay if you want to pay a little money for their correspondance but I would not fork out a fortune for that either.  
  In my opinion you will want to write to quite a few ladies but also you can expect that when you go over there to visit these ladies that you may not want to spread yourself too thin.  Sometimes this can create a very big problem.  I would say you just have to use your gut instinct and not your lustful desires for the prettiest girl necessarily.  Just incase things might not work out with any of the ladies you meet I would make sure to have plenty of back up plans just in case (i.e. marriage agencies, addresses of other ladies you did not get a chance to write to yet, etc...)  
Good luck and keep on posting,  
Jim

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

The girls usually get good photos taken to look their best.  If you look at the competition they're up against, you should understand.  You will get a good response rate initially but don't be surprised if that tapers off real fast.  Some will ask you for money to keep writing and a couple might ask if you will meet them at the next tour meeting and tell you to forget it if you don't meet them right away.  

I've had that same experience as you with a girl just disappearing when you say you're coming to meet them.  I told one girl was coming, then all my emails to her start bouncing back.  So I cancel my trip, then she starts to write and says when are you coming?  I told her I cancelled my trip, but I'll come another time.  So I make arrangements to go again, then she stops writing again, so I cancel my trip again.  Of course, she starts writing again and again says when are you coming?  I told her I cancelled my trip again and I am definitely not planning to come now.  She starts writing me more letters telling me to come but I just ignored them.  I never had her address and she didn't have a phone.  She went on vacation a lot and seemed to just work off and on if she worked at all.  I think a lot of these girls don't work or work intermittently.

Bottom line is to write several girls, maybe from the same general area.  Get the address and phone number of where they live.  Call them where the live a couple of times to be sure they're there.  Possibly contact agencies in the area you will visit to set up a translator or a back up plan to meet more girls in case she doesn't show and you need to meet somebody else.  

Some girls with sexy pictures you can't stand when you meet them in person and other girls you would never pick from their picture are quite sexy in person.  

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

New too, however, I could say with reasonable qualification that the FIRST email you will receive will ALWAYS be copy and paste.  It costs money to have russian emails translated to english, (and vice versa) so why not send the first one, as a generic copy ad?

Another piece of qualified advice... Stay away from icq/aim communications.  These are in my opinion, the russian hookers/scammers of the internet.  (Unless somebody else has a different opinion/experience).

My best recommendation, will, and always will be, put your profile up with a picture, and see who writes you first.  I do recommend that you use a secure service so that half the US doesn't have the ability to see you...

There are good ones out there, but it is so easy to get "nailed to the wall", if you're not careful.  

Greed knows no nationality.  (Especially here in the USA).

BrianN

... in response to Re: A Newbie's Observations, posted by BrianN on Sep 30, 2001

I have no face to face experience yet with Ukrainian women, but have written some and been on a couple of tours to other countries. This is not as easy as it's made out to be at all. It turns into a lot of work to find the right girl amidst all the scammers. If the girl wants more than a small amount of money from you to keep the communication going, then move on to another girl.

There are guys from this board that have met with success right away but most have to try over and over to find the right one. Isn't that how it is in regular dating also. After a guy is successful, they usually drop off the board and just check in occasionally. Some guys have quit their jobs and gone to the Ukraine and Russia for extended periods of time to succeed. They failed initially.

I suggest you use the winter to write a lot of girls and try to get in some sort of initial visit later on to gage them for actual interest. If you're not a rich, good looking guy don't bother with the really hot women, but that doesn't mean you have to settle for an ugly one. I met some girls that were beautiful in their picture but pretty strange in person (and some of these trolls think us guys are strange). If there is no chemistry at all in the meeting, don't rush into a marriage. Any girl that you seriously consider, you should meet at least a couple of times and spend a lot of time together.

I've tried a couple of tours without writing any girls and it's an expensive way to fail. I'm still willing to try because I know many of these girls are sincere and I can afford to keep trying. I wrote a past post on the trouble you can have at the tour socials. Go read that post.

Even though I haven't been to the Ukraine yet, I think it is one of the best shopping grounds for women. Russia is pretty good too.

New too, however, I could say with reasonable qualification that the FIRST email you will receive will ALWAYS be copy and paste.  It costs money to have russian emails translated to english, (and vice versa) so why not send the first on , as a generic copy ad?

Another piece of qualified advice... Stay away from icq/aim communications.  These are in my opinion, the russian hookers/scammers of the internet.  (Unless somebody else has a different opinion/experience).

My best recommendation, will, and always will be, put your profile up with a picture, and see who writes you first.  I do recommend that you use a secure service so that half the US doesn't have the ability to see you...

There are good ones out there, but it is so easy to get "nailed to the wall", if you're not careful.  

Greed knows no nationality.  (Especially here in the USA).

BrianN

... in response to A Newbie's Observations, posted by JimS on Sep 30, 2001

Jim, when most U/W-R/W go to an agency to register, they are provided services of a professional photographer.
As to the type of initial response you get, be patient. Many women receive fifty or more responses within a short time so they must respond at first with what seems like a "canned" reply. After the first few exchanges you'll see a change in tone if there is some chemistry. Remember that in most cases their English skills are very limited. Imagine yourself trying to send a letter in Russian! Of course you could eventually do it, but not to a lot of recipients in a short time. This effort is worth the trouble. And, don't get too defensive if a woman you are interested in tells you she needs some small money for e-mails. Their incomes are way below Western measures of "poverty levels." Honestly, they have no discretionary income.
Take it easy..

... in response to Re: A Newbie's Observations, posted by rojak on Sep 30, 2001

Thanks for the tips. I think some of my surprise was due to the fact that I'd been used to dealing with latin american women. They tend to have much lower reply rates(in my case anyway) and often poor quality photographs (sometimes out of focus). I'll be heading over there in late Nov maybe early Dec, so want to build a list of a few women to meet on the trip. I guess you only need to find one girl who is right for you!