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This is sort of an offshoot of a subject that came up in another forum. I know there is a lot of overlap in membership between these forums, but thought I'd post it here anyway. I have been doing some more thinking on paper (make that pixels) about what I'm really looking for, and wanted to sort out the elements of and come to a firm decision about whether I would accept a woman with a child. I didn't write this with the intention of posting it online, but it might be food for thought/discussion:

What am I going to do about this single mother thing? There are some advantages to being open to single moms: 1) the pool of candidates is much bigger 2) SMs would tend to be more open and wanting to be married 3) motherhood usually has a maturing effect on a woman, and obviously I would want someone who is ready and willing to be married 4) there are examples of “natural” children who have grown up to be disappointments while adopted or stepchildren have turned out beautifully, e.g. Ronald Jr. and Michael Reagan.

The disadvantages: 1) All through the courtship process, there is a third person, not a pet, involved in our relationship. At every turn, at every decision, that third person’s needs and priorities need to be taken into account. Date? In addition to setting aside the usual priorities, there’s finding a babysitter, or taking the child with us, then getting home early for his bedtime or whatever. Visiting at her home? Her child lives there, so naturally he has free reign to play anywhere and do anything, and I of course have no right to resent his presence in his own home or in the life of his mother. 2) The day we get married, I have an instant family. Someone looks after her child while we go on our honeymoon, then the minute we get back I have a stepchild that I am 100% responsible for. Since I will likely be marrying a woman from Latin America, who will need a lot of care and support initially in order to get acclimated to the U.S., I will then have in essence two children to look after and be financially responsible for. And every single time we leave their country, we need a signature from the child’s father. Every single time, until the child turns eighteen. And any of these times he could suddenly decide he wouldn’t mind a few grand as compensation. 3) I would be joining their preexisting relationship, leaving me in a weak position in the marriage. So though I would be expected to treat the child as my own, both emotionally and financially, at any time they could unite against me and tell me to go jump in a lake if for example there is a conflict over how much the child should be disciplined.

Well, I don’t like to be cold and to exclude or dismiss people for something that may or may not be beyond their control, and I do want to do good for others. Some of this is natural human empathy, and some of this feeling may be due to my INFP personality. But at the risk of sounding cynical, gratitude is the least durable of all human emotions, and no good deed shall go unpunished. And since I had nothing to do with any particular woman’s decision to get pregnant (btw, think of Bárbara and Nancy, who did it deliberately), I think I just need to be uncharacteristically cold and pitiless and look out for myself first. The four advantages are simply not convincing enough, especially in light of the three major disadvantages: 1) if the pool of childless candidates is smaller, I just have to look a little harder in the short run to avoid far greater inconvenience and potential disaster in the long run, rather than surrender and figure I just can’t find what I’m looking for. 2) maybe SMs would be more open and willing to be married, but possibly for the wrong reasons. And when a woman is in love, of course she wants to be married, SM or not. 3) motherhood usually has a maturing effect on a woman, but so do plenty of other factors. Just watch it on the age and the party-girl mentality. Find what you’re looking for in all the other areas, and maturity should be a given. 4) there are also plenty of examples of stepchildren (or the dynamic between them and their mothers) wrecking marriages. And just because Reagan Jr. turned out to be a putz and Michael turned out to be a winner doesn’t mean it was because the latter was adopted; taking on a stepchild does not mean that the chances are any greater that he will turn out to be a wonderful person.

Here’s a good compromise, one that will allow me to go for exactly what I want in a marriage, while satisfying my humane urge to do good for others: resolve to adopt at least one child from a third-world country. That way we’re doing much good for someone who truly played no part in getting into his own unfortunate situation; we experience the kind of different-but-equally-strong parental love that only comes through adopting a child; and the two of us go TOGETHER and welcome a child TOGETHER into OUR preexisting relationship.

So the question is settled: no kids.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Great post.  You have provided me with solid insight on things that I really didn't think about.  Your thinking out loud has allowed me to be more analytical in collecting my thoughts.

Being a divorced father of two children that reside with their mother, I thought that it didn't matter if the potential woman had children or not.  I am now rethinking my criteria, and I think that it would be better that she didn't have children.

My previous marriage wasn't a love relationship, at least not from my standpoint, and we really stayed together so long because of our children.  We both devoted our time and energies to our children, but we never devoted anytime to each other.  I realized the mistakes and shortcomings from my first marriage, and I don't want to repeat those in the second.  Her dysfunctional mother also added unnecessary stress to the relationship.  

Your points regarding the babysitter and the potential Colombian father really hit home.  I don't want to go into a new relationship with added stress and potential drama way beyond my control.  So thank you for the insight.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

forget about being a great giver of personal self......to get relief donate to a favorite charity in colombia...and feel good that you did..but for your life ...don't take on some child you don't look like....will never be the real father of ...and will never get the respect you deserve....forget about it man...its obvious from all your writing that you're trying to justify not taking on someones elses child....don't do it...you don't have to ...you're not an adoption agency...don't feel guilty or ashamed....find a single lady w/o children...you'll live happier...and that's the mission;..the goal...your happiness...not hers...

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by oakham on Nov 21, 2005


Best of luck to you, if this is your plan of action. Because you're crazier than all outdoors, if that's your formula for finding happiness with ANY woman, from ANYWHERE! Do you have any children now? You're not giving off a vibe of being a "warm & fuzzy" person around kids...

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by oakham on Nov 21, 2005

The goal is your happiness, not hers? I love to make my wife happy. The happier she is, the happier I am. And she knows how to make me very happy.

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by oakham on Nov 21, 2005

The goal is your happiness, not hers? I love to make my wife happy. The happier she is, the happier I am. And she knows how to make me very happy.

... in response to Wow!, posted by utopiacowboy on Nov 22, 2005

"The goal is your happiness, not hers?"

Yep, that is the best advice there is. The fact that you love to make your wife happy is because she obviously makes you happy. Look beyond your own situation and it will make sense to you. If you were miserable with her, do you still feel you would be doing everything in your power to make her happy?

It makes sense to me...

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Most women have them or want them or both.I got a rare one.Try Bogota,Medellin.
Its one thing to decide what you want,another finding it.
If you are serious date no women with kids.I know people who do,but they are playing with what they do not want.Out of lack of looking hasrd enough.Good luck,you will need it in Colombia with your priorities.

Pete

... in response to Forget Cali, posted by Pete E on Nov 21, 2005

I don't mind if she *wants* kids, only if she already has one.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

"I think I just need to be uncharacteristically cold and pitiless and look out for myself first."

This is a personal decision, and has nothing to do with being selfish.  In fact, if you are mentally predisposed to NOT marrying a woman with children, then you would be doing the woman a disservice in the name of being altruistic.

Since you are mentally predisposed to finding a woman WITHOUT children, then you would be simply TOLERATING the children, which actually, ironcially, then would be signing you up for a selfish relationship (again under the guise of being altruistic).

"Here’s a good compromise, one that will allow me to go for exactly what I want in a marriage, while satisfying my humane urge to do good for others: resolve to adopt at least one child from a third-world country... and the two of us go TOGETHER and welcome a child TOGETHER into OUR preexisting relationship."

Great idea.

FINAL NOTE:

After having the pleasure of meeting you, you mentioned that you were a Christian.  I know from personal experience that in Barranquilla there are MANY devout Christian women in their late 20's in both the Evangelical and Catholic churches that are gorgeous and without children.  If you are targeting devout Christian women, it is not difficult at all to find women without children... at least in Barranquilla...

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by Looking4Wife on Nov 21, 2005

Thanks for the tip, EW4F2BW. I'd like to see BQ and some other cities in Colombia. As far as what I said about being cold and pitiless-- again, this post is like a page from my diary, as it was not written with the intention of being posted, so I think I said a few things a little differently than I normally would. Good point, though; if I'm just tolerating her kids instead of loving them from the heart (which I probably could do if they were not hypothetical) then I'm not doing anyone any good.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Great comment. I think the men using international "coupling services" as you, are in a very fortunate position, you can be picky! You are able to clearly state your preferences up front, and don`t need to report yourself to the political correctness police. You prefer a women with no children? A women with dark tan? a woman on the curvy side? A woman who don't wear glasses? A woman who can cook up a storm? Great for you, go for it.

... and you still have exposure to a large pool of wonderful and interested women. Try that on any singles bar.

Good luck.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

For every good woman with a kid in Colombia, there are two more good women of equal quality without a kid.   Men marry women with kids for basically five reasons--
1.  He likes kids and wants more in his life.
2.  He can not have his own kids so this is a viable
   option for a family.
3.  He feels if the woman has a child, particularly a good
   looking woman, it becomes a controlling issue on his
   part to keep her in line.  (A woman with a kid
   immigrating to the states is primarily thinking about
   the well being of her kid, and would be more inclined
   to stay in a relationship with a gringo than
   a single woman.
4.  If he has his own kids and not a wife, he looks for a
   woman with a kid to balance his own family life.
5.  He wants a hottie but unless he has a million dollars the only one he
   can get is one with a kid.

As a man becomes older, he finds there are a hundred women out there to marry.  It can happen when one is at the right place at the wrong time, or the wrong place at the right time.  A man going to a foreign country needs to decide what category he subscribes to in life, and ignore any woman whom does not fit that category.  If one wants a chevrolet then focus on chevrolets,  and not be distracted by the good looks of a ford.  Unfortuneately looks seem to outweigh common sense among many men, as over time one hears over and over how good looking their old ladies and novia's are on this board and others.  Will these same hotties get the boot in 10 years when their looks go south.    

A man who marrys a woman with a kid, never knows if the woman married him for him, or married him because of her kid and new opportunities in life.  Single Women with kids want a husband in life to help support them.  this is a womens nature, and a man should be intelligent enough to understand this.  

 

 

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by WS244 on Nov 21, 2005

The kid ALWAYS comes first.

Pete

... in response to And, posted by Pete E on Nov 21, 2005

Everyone thinks that a Latina mother will put her child ahead of her husband but it depends on the woman. My wife knows that the kids will only be with us a short time so it's important to make sure the relationship with her husband is solid for the long run. This is one of the things we discussed before we married - we had to be each other's number 1 priorities.

... in response to Why do you say that?, posted by utopiacowboy on Nov 22, 2005

This is interesting. You were asking Pete, but I'll comment anyway, that as he commented his ex never really loved him, that she looked like an angel but wasn't his angel, etc. Obviously your marriage is different.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

I've tried the single mother relationship thingy a couple times, and to Hell with that.  That twinge of desperation on their part to hook up with you is often self-serving; they love to party and be independent--just like their amigas solteras; and the fathers of these kids can be some vindictive ass-wipes.

Single fathers and single mothers are more "meant for each other," as they have the similar experiences and shared interests that childless folk don't.

Never again.

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by doombug on Nov 20, 2005

What about a man that is divorced with children that live with their mother but is a big part of his life?

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by doombug on Nov 20, 2005

Your comment has much merit

Beattledog

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

[This message has been edited by Ray]

I understand your well thought out reasoning in making your decision not to accept a woman with children and I assume that you will filter those ladies out in your preliminary selection process.

I was curious however if you considered what you would do if you happened to meet a super-nice woman by chance and it turned out that she was divorced or widowed with one or more children. Would you immediately dump her and move on, or would you be somewhat open to making an exception for the right woman?

BTW, I think the adoption option is an excellent idea.

Ray

... in response to What if..., posted by Ray on Nov 20, 2005

Good question. This and other responses I've gotten so far have made me have second thoughts about my conclusion.

... in response to Re: What if..., posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Do you want a woman with a child? If yes isn't automatic, then   why torture yourself with this? Forget political correctness. It is not natural for a man to want to raise someone else's kid when he hasn't had his own yet. Don't beat yourself up over it. A friend of mine asked me once that whole hypothetical tear jerk scenario about what if my perfect woman  had a child, what would I do?

I told him if she was my perfect woman, she wouldn't have a child. That kind of simple logic kinda busts up all that sweet but illogical supposition.

... in response to Re: Re: What if..., posted by soltero on Nov 21, 2005

Outstanding observation.   Maybe it´s not %100 percent accurate because this thing is not quite so logical but still very wise and on target.

... in response to Re: Re: What if..., posted by soltero on Nov 21, 2005

I understand your point Soltero that (if I may paraphrase) you think men should not engage in rationalizations and denial about the issue of women with children if they don't prefer a woman with a child. But you said "It is not natural for a man to want to raise someone else's kid when he hasn't had his own yet". I would add that there is a lot about this process that isn't natural. It isn't natural to get on a plane and go to a foreign country to date women. It isn't natural to build relationships with women who speak our language poorly or not at all. Yet the men reading this forum very often make compromises in these ways. Once a man has compromised about common country, culture, and language, compromising about women with children isn't far behind.

I think that many men have a certain unease with the idea of marrying a foreign woman with a child, but that can be from all sorts of reasons, some absolute, some not. Some may not like the child having another man's genetics, while others don't care at all. For me there are a number of potential pitfalls that have nothing to do with the child's genetics. Is the natural father likely to interfere or sabotage the relationship? Is the natural father decent and involved with the child? If yes, that could be looked at as good or bad, depending on a man's point of view. An uninvolved natural father might stay out of the way while a more involved father may interfere. Another point is that if the natural father *acts* like a father, I may never have the joy of being eventually considered "Dad". This is less likely to be the case if the woman is widowed or if the natural father is otherwise missing from the child's life. On the other hand, if the father has full-time custody or will in the future, the woman may be nearly as free as a woman without children. All these things can be weighed by a potential male suitor but of course that takes time, time to get to know the woman or women, and time for the man to get to know himself. If a man only has a week to visit the foreign country such as Colombia, well maybe the lack of time answers the question for him; there's just no real time to weigh these issues. A woman without children is a simpler situation, without a doubt.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: What if..., posted by ROGUEAGENT on Nov 21, 2005

These are all excellent points, and I don't disagree, but the bottom line of it all is Bueller obviously has doubts. If he has doubts, then he needs to stick to his guns. Taking on someone else's child is equal to having your own. If you do it, then you better be a good father. It better be because you want to be a father to that child and not because it is a part of the deal. In short, you better love the child as much as you love the mother. If that isn't the sole reason you are entering into the situation, it's best to leave it alone.

Men who have not had their own children should have their own first IMHO. At least that is the way that I feel. After that, spread the love as much as you want as long as it's love and not just a package deal. On my last trip south, I tried to open my mind to the possibility of women with children entering into my personal equation, and although I met a few that were excellent wife material, I knew that I was only interested in them and not their children. I won't do that again as I know I want my own first. I am not in this to play with anyone's emotions so I am going to stick to that from now on. I don't know what Bueller wants, but if he has doubts, then a woman with a child is an issue for him. I just want to add in with the (I believe) valid "con" opinion.

... in response to Re: What if..., posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Like you I searched for a woman without kids. I have older kids that are about grown, and do not want anymore.  My novia doesn't have kids, and doesn't want any.  But if I had met an irresitable woman, that I couldn't live without, and she had a kid, I'd rethink my position.  
 Mis dos pesos, direct your search to women without kids, but go for the best woman you find, the one you can't live without, child or not.

... in response to Re: Re: What if..., posted by A1A on Nov 20, 2005

Many women will not look at a men with children or grown children. It can work the other way

Beattledog

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

I have to agree with Bueller on this.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Thank you for your interesting post.  I noticed in your list of advantages of a woman having a child you did not list that you would be getting the benefit of this child and their love in your life.  If that is not at the forefront of your mind in your advantages then it seems you are making the right call in going for woman without children.  
When I first started this search I thought a woman with children was a negative but now I am looking at a young child as a bonus so I welcome a woman with children or without.  
Good luck to you.
Fathertime

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

[This message has been edited by utopiacowboy]

I would say that this is an issue that everyone has to decide for themselves. What is right for you may not be right for someone else. Some people are just not cut out to be parents even to their own children let alone someone else's.

For me, children are the best part of the world. I find that interacting with kids keeps me young and gives me a different perspective on the world. I have four kids of my own and I have always been an active involved father coaching their athletic teams and participating in their activites. Heck, one year I coached a kids soccer team and I didn't even have any kids of my own playing on that team. I did it just because I liked the kids from the neighborhood.

So for me, it was easy to marry a widow with three kids. I loved her and if I wanted her then the kids were part of the package. It may be true that gratitude is the least durable of emotions but I think I get as much or more out of the relationship as the kids do, so it doesn't matter to me if they are grateful or not. My oldest stepson wrote me a letter once in which he said that I would surely have a place in heaven, not so much for what I had done for him and his siblings but for how happy I had made his mother. Now that was nice.

... in response to Re: Women with children, posted by utopiacowboy on Nov 20, 2005

very nice, sounds like her kids and your wife are fortunate to have you as you are of them. i feel that you shouldn't do things expecting a "thank you" or anything in return, you should do things because you want to make someones life a little bit nicer, the fact that you know you are helping someone is enough.
JK

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

I agree with your assessment, whole-heartedly, in that the pool of eligible women does become more scarce in the latter age group. Being 31, I am open to the 18-21 age group, but would prefer 23-31 easily. However, I do not think that I am nor will ever be man enough, to accept a "ready made" family, so to speak, no matter how compatible that woman may be with me. The "attention factor", and the "ex-factor", are two things, that simply canoot be overlooked, nor predicted.

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Thanks Bueller for your excellent posting about women with children. I was intending to post something similar but you beat me to it and spared me the time and trouble.

Anybody who knows me knows that I have been grappling with the issue of women with children for much of my 6 months visiting/living in Colombia. What I have discovered is that it is much more (statistically) difficult to find attractive women who are, say, over 26 years old, who don't have children. That is not to say they don't exist, but there will be much more work to find her, and when you find her you may also find she is a lot more picky, difficult, has more suitors, etc. None of this is much of a problem for the man who is looking for (or is open to meeting) women in the 18-21 age group in the first place. For various reasons I prefer women in the 26-32 age group. For me, I just don't prefer a women who is only a year or two out of high school. I realize there are others here who have no problem with that whatsoever. But (hopefully!) women in the 26-32 year age group or older have more maturity, a grounded quality, confidence, wisdom, and are less self-centered. I am not sure how to define it completely but I prefer those qualities and find it very appealing. At the same time, very often they have children as part of the package. In fact, it was the caring for a child which was largely responsible for developing those qualities in the first place. I *want* a woman who isn't self-centered and knows how to put another human being first in her life. Unfortunately, as attractive as that can be, in the background I have fear that the human being first in her life is the child and I will always be second. I fear I will always be guessing how that fact will play out in our relationship. I have not met a woman who has been able to grasp this (as far as I can tell) and communicate empathy to me about the inevitable dilemma I am faced with. Instead, it seems I am largely on my own to deal with it.

Another way to put all this is that a woman with a child very often represents 3 new relationships; the woman, the child, and the ex-husband. On the other hand, I represent only 1 new relationship. There is only me; there is no ex-wife or children that my future Colombian wife has to be concerned about. She doesn't have to worry that I will put a child first before her, or that my ex-wife will refuse to sign some piece of paper allowing a child to leave the country and that *she* may have to bribe my ex-wife with *her* money. For me there is more at stake than there is for her. So of course I will tend to go a lot slower in the relationship and be more hesitant to commit exclusively to her.

Of course, all the above will be cited by some of you as being precisely the reasons to completely avoid no-matter-what the women who have a child and focus without exception on the others. The other side of this is that with so many men taking this advice already it means that finding a really attractive, quality woman who happens to have a child is like trying to find apples on an apple tree; there is a real abundance of them. This is my experience; "your mileage may vary".

... in response to Women with children, posted by Bueller on Nov 20, 2005

Here’s a good compromise, one that will allow me to go for exactly what I want in a marriage, while satisfying my humane urge to do good for others: resolve to adopt at least one child from a third-world country. [[

I did it and I have a wonderful little girl who loves me very much.  But hold on to your wallet.  Thirty thousand dollars to do a foreign adoption.  Yes there is a lawyer tax.}

But worth every penny.  He and my biological kid are closer than many real sisters.