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Hello all. I have a question about colombianas and studying english? What is this myth about it costing alot of money for colombians to learn english? I have been teaching myself spanish for the past 2 years. I am not proficient by any stretch. I have traveled to Mexico, Spain, Aruba and the Dominican Republic. I have had conversations with non-english speakers. They accept my bad spanish and are thrilled to assist me. I have rented cars driven around got lost asked for directions. Talked to women in discos, ordered food, drink, and negotiated prices with certain women of the carnal professions. What I am getting at is that, I HAVE MADE A CONCENTRATED EFFORT TO LEARN THEIR LANGUAGE. The cost? A few dollars for a dictionary. The rest of my education has been using the internet extensively and going to the library. Do they have libraries in Colombia? I have been chatting on the internet with several colombianas over the past 2 years. The majority are attending various universities. I have asked them why have they not learned any english? They all say that it is expensive to go to class. I tell them why not go to the library and check out a book? Why not search the internet for free sites that offer translation? I get silence. I told them very frankly that I could not understand how you can attend a 4 year university and not learn english. The economic situation is not going to get better in Colombia anytime soon, if ever. There is a reason gentlemen that Colombia and similar countries will always be THIRD WORLD? They have a civil war that they have been fighting for what 30 or 40 YEARS? What good is a colombian degree in the united states without knowing any English? Hmmmm lets see can we all join in and say WORTHLESS. I told them there first priority should be to learn to read and write english. They don't have to be proficient just know enough to get by. Fill out a job application. Smile alot and look cute. If they want to improve there living conditions and have a better life this should be paramount. I told them that the United States is not paved in goal. There are many jobless americans and the kind of jobs many fresh off the plane foreigners no english speakers have to look forward to is cleaning a toilet. I told them to aim high and work hard for it. Now mind you I said this 2 YEARS AGO. There english has not passed the, "Hello how are you?", stage. They want American boyfriends and husbands but I really believe they just want a free ride to a dream that does not exist? What do you guys think? Are they lazy?

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

For many of the ladies you will meet in agencies, and tours, there is simply nothing in it for them.  Learning english, from their perspective, will not make a significant difference in their life.  Given the precarious employment situation in Colombia and other coutries in the region, you would be hard-pressed to find many latinas believing english skills will improve prospects of finding work, etc. - unless you consider Bogota.  A professional women, ie. with a univiersity education or post-secondary, is more likely to be interested in learning enlish as a way of persoanl and professional advancement.  Plus Bogota is much more of a cosmopolitan city and English is more likely to be heard and spoken.  My experience is a much higher percentage of ladies with English skills (and/or interest in learning) in Bogota.  I don't think it's laziness, just maybe what they (latinas) see as being realistic, never mind the cost.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Ricardo on Apr 23, 2005

n/t

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

Are you lazy or just content with your quite limited proficiency in English? Don’t you know that the following proper nouns are capitalized: Colombianas, English and Spanish. Do you have an English dictionary? If so, then you could teach yourself that “alot” should be written as two words, e.g. “My post contains a lot of bullshit.”  “I have a question about colombianas and studying english?” is not really a question; rather, it is a declarative sentence and ought to have a period instead of a question mark.  

I’m impressed that in your travels to Mexico, Spain and the Dominican Republic you were able to have conversations with “non-english speakers.” Don’t them folk’ up thir speek inglish two?

You wrote: “I have rented cars driven around got lost asked for directions.” Thanks for clarifying that you indeed, drove around in the cars you rented. Otherwise, I might have thought that in your case, you parked your rental on the curb and then took taxis to practice your Spanish while picking up “certain women of the carnal professions.” Don’t you know that a series of three or more elements are separated with commas? You should have had a conjunction between the last two elements of your series. Your sentence also displays shifts in tense which is a common challenge for most EL’s (English Learners), so don’t feel too bad.

“There english has not passed the, "Hello how are you?", stage.” Did you ever learn about homophones?  Homophones are words that sound exactly the same, but have different meanings. An example would be “there” and “their.”  In the above sentence, you should have used “their,” not “there.” You might want to look these words up in your English dictionary, once you purchase it.

Lastly, let me say that your entire post is riddled with stupidities that underscore your ignorance and arrogance. You are a self-proclaimed righteous a-hole. Your argument is an excellent example of why Americans are often despised in many parts of the world. Please keep your mouth shut until you enroll your lazy ass in an E.S.L. program at a community college. You may discover that English is a challenging language and mastering it is no simple task.

... in response to Brilliant Example of American Stupidity!, posted by Seeker on Apr 23, 2005

Now you know why I was laughing so hard.  The guy will need all the help he can get. -TNC

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

It all depends on the character of the ladies. No one is the same.

For example, I met a 34 year old woman who is very stunning, she speaks French, English, and Spanish fluently.

She's from Cali, and doesn't look older than 25. She's beautiful.

Do you think you have enough class to date her?

Aaron

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

"I told them to aim high and work hard for it. Now mind you I said this 2 YEARS AGO. Their English has not passed the, 'Hello how are you?', stage."

Who is this "them" that you are referring to?  All Colombian women, or a couple that you've been involved with?

Your mention of boob jobs and P4P makes me think you've stuck in the nice piece of ass mode instead of looking for character.  Well, those boob jobs are going to make it far easier for the women to ride someone to America than learning English.  Men who look for the hottest piece of ass they can find generally don't care about superficial things like the ability to communicate and I suspect being a hot piece of ass is a more sure way of succeeding for them due to the preponderance of men who think with the head in their pants.

If you want to find success, I suggest you start looking at women with character.  A little hint-  Smart, motivated women generally (but not always) aren't the hot young pieces of ass in mini skirts with their tits popping out.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Patrick on Apr 22, 2005

Patrick, your message was a little blunt, but well put.  

Spanish speakers should not have THAT much trouble learning English.  Yes, English is somewhat more difficult to pronounce, however English grammar and practical usage is much simpler than Spanish. The difficulties in our language are mainly in conforming to proper style and usage, not in the very act of trying to be understood.

Even though it is not my major subject, I spend two hours of each school day teaching English to Hispanic secondary students. In general, I have found the number one predictor of success in learning English is the student's proficiency in Spanish.  If I were a betting man, I would lay odds that the same women he says can't learn English spent their school age years either not attending classes properly, or when they were there, spent their time "goofing off", writing notes instead of taking notes, or just didn't bother to do their tarea...

Remember, fluency does not necessarily indicate mastery.  For proof of that, just turn on the boob-tube, and watch a few minutes of a show such as Jerry Springer or Maury, etc.  I do understand some people have learning disabilities, but in general, if she has not bothered to master Spanish, her native tongue, how can she hope to possibly master English?

Mark

P.S.  If you look hard enough, you can probably find punctuation and grammar errors, even in this post; and I have a few years of post-secondary education...

... in response to blunt, but well said..., posted by lapentier on Apr 23, 2005

Lapentier,

I enjoyed your post.  I thought it was interesting that you teach english to hispanic children.  Do you ever tutor hispanic adults?  Since you are from Wichita, I am curious about the hispanic population there.  I lived in Wichita for a short time, back in the late 70's.  Not many Mexicans or other hispanics there at that time.  But, I am just south a ways of you, in the Tulsa area.  We have 3 or 4 times the Mexicans we used to have.  Most of them are very hard workers.  I do business in public schools and I have seen a dramatic jump in the hispanic population of the schools.  Many years ago, when I was married to an american woman, I never thought I would be into the latinas.  But, having said that, I was always attracted to them. Next month I will flying to Cali to meet a lady I have been corresponding with.  I hope that she and I can have an enjoyable time together. But, it will be interesting because I know very little spanish, at this time.  She does not speak english.  But, we are both trying to learn the other language so we can bridge the gap.  This is a process for all of us, one way or the other.  You are very fortunate that you are already fluent in spanish.

                             OkieMan

... in response to Re: blunt, but well said..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 23, 2005

Actually, I haven't yet extensively tutored adults whose primary language is Spanish; most of my experience with adults, oddly enough was with adult speakers of Mandarin Chinese at Pittsbug State back in the late 1980's. This led to teaching English in Taiwan during summer. As for now, I ended up teaching the English classes because the private school where I am employed was short, six years ago, English teachers sufficient to teach a couple of the lower-level secondary English classes which happened to be significantly populated with hispanics.  From what I hear, English teachers come a dime by the dozen; English teachers willing to teach hispanics are rare.

(As a side note, while at Pittsburg State, just to the north and east of you, I began dating and was engaged to a Chinese lady from Taiwan who was a graduate student at PSU.  As a happenstance, a few years later, that relationship did not work out. However, the personal contacts and cultural savvy gained from teaching English during summer in Taiwan ended up introducing me to the lady, who was from the Philippines working for a related Taiwanese employer in Singapore, who ended up later becoming my wife. Over the last nine years or so, my wife and I have introduced several of my shy bachelor friends to "penpals" from the Philippines; some of these have worked out towards marriage.  She somtetimes jokes we should start our own "agency".

In between, I had two serious relationships with American women.  Both were nice people, however, the amount of "baggage" and other issues involved really nixed both relationships.  Either of these two ladies was willing to marry me, but after much agonized prayer, I realized that neither of these two relationships would ever be able to pan out to a successful, productive marriage. The prospects among American women in my age group in the places where I lived were fairly bleak.  And, for about half of that time, I wasn't living very far from where you live now.)

Anyhow, I was living in Pittsburg back in the late 1970's so I don't have a reference point to Wichita at the time.  However, when I moved to Wichita in 1989, there did not seem to be many hispanics here at the time.  Ten years, two school districts, and one university later, I ended up back in Wichita.  It has been since then that the hispanic population here has exploded.  According the data I have seen, the majority of the hispanic population here comes from three northern Mexican states.  As a whole, the group is very hard-working, but is not very well educated.

Congratulations on meeting your lady and flying to Cali.  Yes, you do have a challenge with the language, but it is not insurmountable.  Besides, learning the language with the help of your girlfriend can give you an activity to get to know her better.  Just out of curiousity, have you considered taking introductory Spanish courses at OSU or the community college in Tulsa?  The community college last I heard, is around half the price of OSU, and probably offers night courses.  If all else fails, a Spanish course, would give you writing materials for your letters to your friend--which are likely to earn lots of "brownie" points without much potential of getting you into trouble.  If you say something the wrong way, she will think its hilarious and chalk it up to your inexperience in Spanish rather than putting you foot into your mouth.

Anyhow, I would like to hear how your trip to Cali turns out.  It is interesting to hear about hispanic culture--to hear what really counts to know, not what the tourist brochures and social studies books tell you.  

If it's any consolation, just knowing the language isn't everything.  That's why when my friend started the process again of looking for a wife, I started reading this board.  There have been several times that my wife and I have gone to Mexican or other ethnically hispanic restaurants.  We can read every word on the menu, and not have a clue about what the dish actually is.  A couple of months ago, my mother-in-law, who lives with us, ordered a tortilla.  She was thinking "Spanish tortilla" while the waitress was thinking "Mexican tortilla".  She was rather surprised at what she got.  Just ask your friend about the difference between the two...

Okieman, sorry the post is so long.  Best wishes for success to you, and keep us posted on how things go!

Mark

... in response to Re: Re: blunt, but well said..., posted by lapentier on Apr 24, 2005

Mark,

Yes, I plan to take a spanish course at TCC in the near future.  It's just that I had so many things already going, I did not feel like I could do it before. Hopefully, this fall.  At any rate, I will keep everyone on this board informed about how things are going, after I get back in early June.  My trip will be from May 24-June 2
Take care.

                                   OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: blunt, but well said..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 24, 2005

Good Luck! Best wishes for success.--Mark

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Patrick on Apr 22, 2005

Well they could be. My chemical engineer wife loves to wear short skirts, tight pants and low-cut blouses. She can't help it - she's a Colombiana!

... in response to Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and Englis..., posted by utopiacowboy on Apr 22, 2005

My fiancee loves to wear the shorts skirts, tight pants and low cut blouses too...and she is from PERU!!!!!!!!!!!

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and En..., posted by Chris F on Apr 22, 2005

Chris,

I enjoyed hearing about your fiance.  I have talked many times to Utopiacowboy thru these posts and some emails, and I have seen pictures of his wife.  He is very much in love with his wife; and I am sure that you are very much in love with your fiance. Having said that, I would like to ask a follow up question.  We all know that in the latin culture, these ladies are used to dressing sexy.  But, do you think that your latina now dresses  sexy only for you?  By that, I am asking if she still wants other men to notice her?  If she is as attractive as many of the other latinas we have all seen, it is inevitable that other men are checking her out.  How does she feel about that?  Of course, I believe that your Peruvian fiance is still in Peru, right?  So, she has not come to the States yet?  Part of why I am asking is about the cultural changes she will encounter here in the States.  Naturally,  both of you will have many adjusts when she finally gets here.  I am just curious to find out her perspective.  I hope that one day, I will have the opportunity to enjoy the  situation you are in right now! Let me know how it goes.

                          OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Question: Colombianas an..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 22, 2005

Hey OkieMan!!

A great question!!

My fiancee has always loved to dress very sexy. This has always been her nature. One of the many things she loves about me is that I love the way she dresses too!! It has been a problem for pass Peruvian boyfriends she has had because they were not comfortable with other guys checking her out. In my opinion, they were being very insecure...but many latin men are....by nature....

She is still in Peru right now as we are waiting for her appt. for her visa.

I have no problem with other guys checking her out because I know she is in love with me.She is a latina from South America...and this is one of the many things I love about thess women...they LOVE DRESSING LIKE A WOMAN!!!!!

Good Luck in Cali Okieman.......and remember dont get too emotionally tied up to a woman you have not met yet from Cali..

Been there...done that.....and in my case she was from Cali as well a few years back....but that is another story.......

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question: Colombiana..., posted by Chris F on Apr 22, 2005

Chris,

Thanks for your follow up comments.  Yes, it is a joy to be with a lady who likes to dress as a beautiful, sexy woman!  I hope that all goes well for you and your Peruvian lady.  As far as my deal, only time will tell.  I am trying very hard to prepare myself for it going either way.  I have also made many statements to her thru my emails, that she should be honest with me about her feelings.  We both know that there are risks with these type of arrangements.  But, having said that, my plans are to go there and have a good time.  If things do not go well, I have my backup plans.  Besides, I will be there for my birthday.  This girl already knows that, and is planning on showing me a good time for that too.  Right now, my imagination is going wild on that one! ha  By the way, how does your girl feel about see through clothes?  That one really drives me crazy!  I guess I will find out about that  too! ha

                           OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question: Colomb..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 23, 2005

My wife never wears see through blouses - that's her sister's thing. She will wear a short skirt to church though and then has to use a hymnal to cover herself up with when she sits down. Yeah, I can imagine that the other men in the church are praising God.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question: Co..., posted by utopiacowboy on Apr 23, 2005

I remember back in the 60's and 70's and the first wave of miniskirts in this country were popular. Ladies and girls from all walks of life were giving all of us a great look at their assets! ha  Of course, you and I were much younger men back then, and it didn't take much for us to rise to the occasion anyhow! ha  Well, speaking as a man now in his 50's, I don't rise as quickly as I used to, but a hot latina in a short dress/skirt and a low cut blouse will do it every time!  Besides, I think that I am a little smoother with my moves. (I hope)  Of course, lucky farts like you don't have to chase skirts now! ha   Well, I intend to chase a few more skirts before I settle down to one.  But, ultimately, I want a good wife and and a happy homelife.  Both of us knows how it feels to have that taken away from us.  Fortunately for you, you have found a great lady.  Maybe soon I will be so lucky too!

                        Okieman

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 23, 2005

Maybe you will be so lucky, Okieman! You may have every intention of chasing skirts but who knows what will happen when you meet your Calena? If it all works out, you may not want to. I was blown away in the airport the first time I saw my now wife. I knew then and there that she was IT for me. And I have absolutely no regrets two years later.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ques..., posted by utopiacowboy on Apr 24, 2005

Utopiacowboy,

That is wonderful that you found your love that way. Naturally, I will have to take it a step at a time.  I am trying to prepare myself for it going either way.  Fortunately, there are many other ladies in many different places to be chased if this one calena does not work out.

                          OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 24, 2005

n/t

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question: Colombiana..., posted by Chris F on Apr 22, 2005

I agree with you Chris. It doesn't bother me in the least when other men look at my wife - heck, she's worth looking at so how can I blame them for looking? I'm sure I've taken some looks at other guy's wives every now and again. If your relationship is solid you've got nothing to worry about.

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and En..., posted by Chris F on Apr 22, 2005

Yep. Dr. Aaron to the contrary, I love it!

... in response to Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and Englis..., posted by utopiacowboy on Apr 22, 2005

COLOMBIANA BIMBA !!!!!!!

... in response to Correction: A COLOMBIANA BIMBO, or I sho..., posted by Dr Aaron on Apr 22, 2005

Bimbo? Isn't that a brand of bread? Yeah, that's it, with the little bear dressed in kitchen whites as their trademark.

... in response to Correction: A COLOMBIANA BIMBO, or I sho..., posted by Dr Aaron on Apr 22, 2005

Such a comment could only come from someone who doesn't know any Colombianas and has never been to Colombia. My lawyer sister-in-law thinks nothing of going off to work in a lacy see-through blouse that you can see her lingerie through. There, it's perfectly normal.

... in response to Re: Correction: A COLOMBIANA BIMBO, or I..., posted by utopiacowboy on Apr 22, 2005

Utopiacowboy,

By the way, how are things going for your good looking sister-in-law?  I hope that she is happy.

                        OkieMan

... in response to Re: Re: Correction: A COLOMBIANA BIMBO, ..., posted by OkieMan on Apr 22, 2005

My wife and I both think she is foolish for hoping for the return of the father of her son. Lately she has been telling my wife that she wants to look for someone else. Of course she's said that before and never followed through on it. So, no, she is not too happy these days.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Patrick on Apr 22, 2005

No le hagas caso a ese tonto. Va de mal en peor.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Patrick on Apr 22, 2005

Hey your lecturing to the wrong guy. Reread what I wrote. Who are you the new POPE?

... in response to Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and Englis..., posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005


Nope, Patrick isn't the Pope, just the owner of P-L who as a few years under his belt and is married to a Latina.  

Pope Patrick, I like that.  LOL

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

Laziness is definitely a factor. It’s the lets sit out on the porch and watch life go by syndrome which seems to be a favorite pastime here. Ones personal career objective in live certainly does not have to include learning English. But for those that are truly interested in learning the spark for taking the initiative to advance in any aspect of life doesn’t seem to light up for many.

Engage the Exotic - Latin Women
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Jamie on Apr 22, 2005

"But for those that are truly interested in learning the spark for taking the initiative to advance in any aspect of life doesn’t seem to light up for many."

Excellent point.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Jamie on Apr 22, 2005

I agree with you 100%

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

All I am hearing is excuses. These women are not that POOR? I have not heard anything about the cost of a library card? They are wearing the nicest clothes. The way you guys are talking is like they are living in the deserts of Africa. Im not buying it fellas. What Im talking about here is the desire to create an opportunity to learn. I have seen enough agency photos with fake boob jobs to know that many of these chicas aren't starving. The clothes they are wearing aint THAT CHEAP. Its a matter of priorities. What Im saying at what point do you say to her SPEAK SOME ENGLISH? This is a great test to see if they want to make things happen for themselves or do they want to make things happen solely by RIDING YOUR BACK TO THE UNITED STATES? This is my litmus test. I have heard all the mi vidas, me reys, mi amors to shake a stick at. Say it in English, then I will really be impressed. This is just my observation. Im not looking to get into a free for all brawl. Just what I have noticed since chatting with latinas from colombia.

... in response to EXCUSES, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

By your original post and how you presented your point, I totally agreed with you in one word... Lazy!

After I got this far down the post I had a few things to throw in and I still agree with you when it comes to my search.  Sometimes I do use thier initative as criteria.

Generally I know it is difficult to learn another language. I am understanding about this, so in the beginning I write mostly in Spanish. If I start considering them as a prospect, I then introduce English to see how it is taken.

There are times that I come home from work and I am just not in Spanish mode, but I want to talk or email, so I do it in English. From there I see how the girl takes it.

Currently I am talking to a girl that I am  considering a prospect. (She is slowly moving into "Was a prospect") I explain that I am tired and re-assure her about her English but she still insists on Spanish. This is beginning to tell me something. I too have heard all the mi amors, con carinos, besos, etc... and now quite frankly I want to hear it in English too. I take it all as excuses. Especially when they don't have a job and I can come home from work and look up their words in a book as easily as they can. I will gladly do this, but not 100% of the time. It is really frustarating when I can see that I am the only one putting in the effort and I am learning a lot from this and how to guage this.

I really like the girls that continue to write/talk back in English long after I continually write/talk in Spanish. It is a lot of effort our part to learn Spanish and I think they should put forth the effort as well.

In the times I say: "Uno momento nesisito mi libros" it would be nice to hear the same.

I agree with you,

V-Dude

... in response to Re: I Agree, posted by valleydude on Apr 23, 2005

"Especially when they don't have a job and I can come home from work and look up their words in a book as easily as they can. I will gladly do this, but not 100% of the time. It is really frustarating when I can see that I am the only one putting in the effort and I am learning a lot from this and how to guage this."

I had a similar problem with my ex.  I'd known her over a year and, in the end, she had the same lack of interest in studying English as she had from the start.   This despite the free time she had, and despite me sending her a healthy sum of money each month.  

Some might not count this as a "red flag," but I did.

... in response to Re: Re: I Agree, posted by doombug on Apr 24, 2005

You aren't alone. I have begun to count it as a red flag too, but one to be used with discretion. It wasn't until recently and after much experience with writting to many girls that I began to decipher it.

I agree with you,

V-Dude

... in response to EXCUSES, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

Two years ago when we met, my fiancee (a very intelligent Dominicana) could not even speak to me at ALL without a translator.  All she bought was an english-spanish dictionary to help her.

I on the other hand, bought a PDA that could translate the spanish to english, 2 Books, I have the Spanish language CD's in my car that I listen to on the way to work, downloaded (but have not yet taken) the Pimsleur courses.  I also carry a pocket dictionary.  I also took Spanish class in High School so I had a head start.  Do you know what language my fiancee and I speak in now???

ENGLISH!!  To put it quite frankly my Spanish S U C K S!!!!

The moral of this story, I suppose is that if she has an incentive she will learn.  My girl learned more English in 6 months than I learned Spanish in a lifetime!  AND she is still learning!!

I'm afraid *I* am a lost cause.  hahahaha

Well, the English she is learning will only help her when she gets here.

... in response to My fiancee learned to speak English in 6..., posted by bjsisko on Apr 22, 2005

Reminds me of the two latinas I was pursuing  relationships with and learning about... Both ladies insisted on me speaking English to them on the phone, when we exchanged messages, and during my visits to see them... Along with that there were many times when I met other people in Colombia that knew a little English or were fluent and they to would ask me to speak English so they ccould practice their English because they did not know many people in their country that did...  Sure it is better for me to know more Spanish and it would make my travels in Colombia easier and more secure... But, I also knew that if one of these ladies were to be my wife and come to my country the more English they knew the better...
On a side note, language was not the reasons for either one of these relationships not to continue...

... in response to EXCUSES, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

[This message has been edited by Onephd]

Not excuses, but only trying to present some possible left out ideas.  

I hear your point and I think you are talking about something that is more relevant when you have been talking to a woman for a while and it is likely that she will be coming here.  But to  simply ask why Colombians are not learning English when they can't even go to an English speaking country is not right.  I think once a woman has an incentive to learn English, then they do learn English.  But it's dependent on the individual lady.

I think you are talking about the former of the two situations (where the lady is dating a Gringo), but many of us, including me, are responding to the latter.  

As for the library thing.  I have never been to a Colombian Library to know what they have to offer but again, the woman has to have some motivation to learn English.

Imgaine there is a colony of people on the moon and they speak some language called " Language X".  The USA however does not let North Americans freely visit the Moon nor does the USA have any real job opportunities there.  Now the only way to to go visit to the moon is to obtain a Moon Visa (they are only awarded to 1% of the population and very hard to obtain) or to marry a woman from the Moon Colony.  What incentive would you have to go to the library to learn "Language X" without knowing a Moon lady? ---- NONE

I know this sounds like a stupid example, but think about it.  Without some real incentive, neither you or I would Learn "Language X". ha ha ha

There are women that do learn English simply to have something to put on their resume or maybe their company has some opportunities for bilingual workers.  (again here is the motivation or the carrot)

Believe me I feel you on this one, but its a very dynamic and somewhat complicated issue.

... in response to Re: EXCUSES, posted by Onephd on Apr 22, 2005

"Without some real incentive, neither you or I would Learn 'Language X'".

 

The incentive--the bonus--for someone studying "Language X" would be immense were the language widely used throughout the world, such as English is today.  

The country of Chile is a case in point:

"In Brazil, some lawmakers want to slow the advance of English. But Chile is embracing it. 'We have some of the most advanced commercial accords in the world, but that is not enough,' Sergio Bitar, the minister of education, told the New York Times. 'We know our lives are linked more than ever to an international presence, and if you can't speak English, you can't sell and you can't learn.'"

France, on the other hand, is an antithetical case.  That nation seems to despise English.  Though French may be more aesthetically pleasing, it isn't as practical on a global scale.  English is constantly evolving, thus much richer, more elastic, and a greater tool for innovative expression.  It's sort of the Linux of languages.

On one site, the contrast between the French and English languages goes something like this:

"There are fewer than 100,000 words in the French language.

"The central idea of writing is, of course, the idea. Ideas by their very nature are wispy sorts of things. This being so, you can''t grab an idea and do with it what you will. Rather the best for which one can hope is to encapsulate the idea and preserve it for time immemorial in some sort of ethereal amber. We call this amber, language; the basic building block of which is, of course, the word. (We are speaking now as poets and not as linguists.)

"As such, writers of English have the good fortune of having hundreds of thousands of words from which to choose. When you think of it, the English language writer always has at least three words for any idea, each rooted in the Latin, the Germanic or Saxon tongues, and the Greek. Think of a word for human habitation: city, town, metropolis, and so on. And that's just the start. In the English-speaking world we also owe a heavy debt to Algonquin, and Hebrew, and Malay (ketchup anyone?) and Maori, and Zulu and Hmong among a multitude of others. I think you can spot the beginnings of a trend here.

"And then there is the entire realm of 'jargon,' scientific and otherwise, those specialized patois or vocabularies known only to those in specific fields. Computer-related jargon is multiplying at an extraordinary rate. And since English has become the lingua Franca of the Internet, English words are being created and non-English words co-opted at an ever-quickening pace."

http://www.languagemonitor.com/wst_page7.html

There can be no doubt that if someone from LA had a firm grasp of the English language, a greater array of opportunities would be open to them.  Many Asian countries seem enthralled with learning English; and imagine the exodus of Filipinos ever occuring if it hadn't been for their focus on English early on in primary schools.  The individual Filipino expatriate is a prime example of the global payoff of learning a language other than that attributed by culture.

Aside from the popularity/utility of learning English in the afformentioned places, here's a list of countries where English is an official language or is predominantly spoken:

Antigua and Barbuda
Australia
Bahamas
Barbados
Beliza
Botswana
Canada
Fiji
Gambia
Ghana
Grenada
Guyana
India
Jamaica
Kenya
Kiribati
Liberia
Malawi
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritius
Micronesia
Namibia
New Zealand
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palau
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Philippines
Rwanda  
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
South Africa
Swaziland
Tanzania
Trinidad and Tobago
United Kingdom
United States [for now, at least]
Vanuatu
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Even the "enlightened" of the anti-Western leaning nations of the world seem to have grasped this:

"Possibly the greatest concentration of these [English-language newspapers and magazines], paradoxically, is in the region that is commonly stereotyped as being the most resistant to American and Western culture: the Arab world."

The author accurately describes English as a tool that connects the Arab diaspora, "...many of whose members reside in English-speaking countries."

"I've seen the future and it speaks English"
http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/015064.html

This is why Chile has rushed to teach their nation English--and why your novia should rush to learn it:

"'The common denominator of the countries that have done best in this age of dashed expectations is that they are the countries where English is spoken,' U.S. economist Paul Krugman said in a recent issue of Fortune. Besides the fact that English is the language of technology and of business, Krugman reckons that English-speaking countries were largely immunized against the Crisis by the ideological groundswell they underwent in the 1980s in favor of open markets and against government intervention. 'Perhaps the rest of the advanced world missed the tide because it couldn't read [economist] Milton Friedman in the original.'"

The rest of the article is quite interesting, and includes the following observations:

"'You will not rise in rank if your English is way beyond help,' says Philippines Defense Secretary Orlando Mercado."

"'In technology, business and diplomacy, a command of English is essential,' says Najib Tun Razak, Malaysia's minister of education."

"English is now the prime language of learning - perhaps even of thought. 'Books on current findings are almost entirely in English,' Malaysian Education Minister Najib points out."

"If the employer has to choose one of two candidates with similar technical qualifications, but one candidate's English is much better, he will get priority."

"English is the language that offers the single biggest market, the largest pool of talent, the most educational and research capabilities, and the greatest probability of being able to communicate with anybody else on the planet."

"MIND YOUR LANGUAGE!"
http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/99/0730/cs1.html

... in response to Re: Re: EXCUSES, posted by doombug on Apr 22, 2005


Doombug,

That was a very interesting post. If you will notice on your list of nations; a large portion of them were British colonies, at one time or the other. Remember the old saying -"The sun never sets on the British Empire".  Of course, the British Empire is not nearly as large as it once was, but it started the process of the "globalization"
of the english language.  Naturally, the good old USA took everything to the next level.  Where the biggest part of the colonization of the British Empire ended by the 20th Century, the United States took over as a world power, and then a superpower. As you know, most of the world hates us, and are jealous and envious of us.  But, at least they are smart enough to know that if they want to do business with us, they must learn english.  Having said that, I think that the US govt. has done a disservice to its natural born citizens, by not making foreign language more of a priority as part of our education.  We could start the small children out by learning Spanish (or even French or German).  By the time they are out of elementary school, the kids could be either fluent or near fluent in the foreign language they are studying.  As it is, the public education system does not usually start until the kids are in high school.  By then, they are more interested in getting into each other's pants, or what ball game is playing that week, blah, blah, blah.  I think that is a big mistake.  Start the kids when their little minds are like sponges, and can soak up all the good stuff.  Sort of like the passage of scripture -- "Train up a child, and when he is older he will not depart from it".

                         OkieMan

... in response to Re: EXCUSES, posted by Onephd on Apr 22, 2005

"I have never been to a Colombian Library to know what they have to offer but again,..."

From what I have seen the libraries are small with minimal selections of old books most coming from donations. If it is like the rest of the country anything good they had was probably stolen (another popular past time in Colombia).

Engage the Exotic
http://International-Introductions.com

... in response to Libraries, posted by Jamie on Apr 22, 2005

Jamie,

I have never been in a Colombian library. But, from what you are saying, their public library system leaves alot to be desired?  I was curious about that.  If I actually start a relationship with the calena I will be seeing next month, I will give her a Spanish/English dictionary that I have.  I figure she and her son can benefit by that.  I have more than one, and I will continue to work on my spanish as well.  But, she has already commented to me about she and her son wanting to learn english.  I am not sure, but I think that was a subtle hint that if things work out, she wants to come to the States.  Subtle but sweet, like her!
                        OkieMan

... in response to Re: EXCUSES, posted by Onephd on Apr 22, 2005

Excellent point of view.

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

ROFLMAO... Good luck on your quest. -TNC

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

I am sure that hotties love being on the receiving end of one of your lectures.

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by larrydarrell on Apr 22, 2005

Oh man your so missing the fricking point.

... in response to Question: Colombianas and English, posted by fingaroll44 on Apr 22, 2005

No not lazy at all. I have you have wondered about this but after discussing it with a few ladies and spending a lot of time down in Colombia and one trip to Brazil I can tell it is more complicated than you make it seem.

1.  Yes it’s possible to study things off the internet but in Colombia, computers and internet subscription are still a very big luxury.  Even if they have internet access in their home, Colombians are not glued to it like we are.  WE can use the internet for many things, but in Colombia, they have not gotten to that level yet.  For many the internet is only used for email and is now slowly becoming necessary for school assignments and learning.  

2. The cost IS prohibitive if they want to study in a language school which many believe is the best way to learn a foreign language.  For example, Berlitz costs about $150 a month while a place like Colombo cost about $50 a month (I think).  Thus if a woman has completed her degree she is looking at studying at a language school.  Remember a laborer there makes about$ $150-300 a month while professionals make on average $600 a month. Thus you are talking about 25-33% of their gross income being spent on English lessons when the vast majority can't even get a visa to vsit an English speaking country.

I'm not disagreeing with you in that they need to learn a second language but its just harder there as the class system really does exist there and limit many.  Another things, Look at the USA; we are probably just as bad as Colombia when it comes to learning a second language.  Just compare the USA to other countries around the world and you will see that as a country we are pitiful when it comes to second languages.  ha ha ha.  We just have more resources to learn than Colombia but we really are not that better.

Sure Colombia needs to make some changes to become a power, but it goes beyond that of English.  Hopefully as more and more businesses go global and find their way to Colombiaan d vice versa, things will hopefully changea nd there will be more opportunities for Colombians that speak English and lead to more people learning English etc..  

Just my 2 centavos

... in response to Re: Question: Colombianas and English, posted by Onephd on Apr 22, 2005

they can learn the language (english) if they really want to . My future wife is speaking very good english after only 6 months of teaching herself from a book that she bought . In her town in Brazil there are no english classes available so she has no choice . We talk on the phone all the time and only use english ... very little Portuguese ...

... in response to Re: Re: Question: Colombianas and Englis..., posted by Jake on Apr 22, 2005

I agree, but remember that she has an incentive and someone to practice with as well.

Terence