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[KenC]

... in response to question ken, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Land,
Of course I would agree that the more women you meet the better your chances of finding the right one.  But that is not my point here.  My point is that if you go to Russia with the intension of getting engaged, you will and that may be the wrong decision no matter how many women you meet.  Meeting "X" number of women does not assure you that you HAVE met the right one.  I witnessed AM in Russia that had a long list of women to meet.  After a few days of "quantity interviewing" and "multiple dating" they were lucky to know their OWN name, let alone a Natasha from a Tatiana.  There were far too many AM with glazed over eyes, a bouquet of flowers in hand, that had no clue about what they were doing.
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How you get down to you only selection for a future wife is less important than what you do after you have "zero-ed in" to that ONE woman.  There is no substitute for the time necessary to insure that the two of you are meant for each other.  Want some long odds?  Marry a woman you don't know!
KenC

[landscaper]

... in response to Re: question ken, posted by KenC on Oct 20, 2002

thanks for the comments ken and i do agree. i will take my time and not go with the percieved notion that i will get engaged on any trip. i am not desperate to get married and plan to take the time required to really get to know the woman i might marry. again thanks.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to question ken, posted by landscaper on Oct 20, 2002

Your best shot at finding a woman is going to an "Honest Agency."

Why don't you contact www.firstdream.com?

I am quite sure they can help you!

[landscaper]

... in response to No, Landscaper, you've missed it entirel..., posted by MarkInTx on Oct 20, 2002

thanks mark, I have bookmarked firstdream with about 6 other agencies.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to thanks, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

What are the other six?

There are a lot of guys on here who have used a lot of agencies... maybe they can help you narrow it down?

Although, personally, I just don't think you're going to find any agency that you like better than Firstdream. They are perfect for you, IMHO...

[landscaper]

... in response to Re: thanks, posted by MarkInTx on Oct 21, 2002

so far i have looked at anastasia, european connection, blue saphire, firstdream, afa, and angelica network. i appreciate your referal but think it is best to talk with all the agencies. i don't see why a person has to deal with just one agency, unless i am missing something here.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: Re: thanks, posted by landscaper on Oct 21, 2002

No... you're not missing anything.

And neither am I.

Good luck on your "search"

[Oscar]

... in response to correction, posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

I would have to respectfully disagree and say that "leading with marriage on your mind" would be the very BEST thing one could do, in my opinion.
As Lewis Carroll said in "Alice in Wonderland"- If you don't know WHERE you are going to, you will end up somewhere else"!
And I think there is a big difference between "forcing a woman into your need to get married" and having a strongly focused goal to marry a woman with certain criteria in mind and not compromising..  

Guys can call it whatever they want, but to me, whether the guy meets only one girl and finds his bride on his first trip, or goes back to see the same woman 5 times, or meets 100 women, it's still more or less a mail order marriage.  It is simply a completely un-natural thing to do period!

Maybe we're talking simple semantics here, I don't know...

Regarding not buying meeting many women-  I will also disagree because there are just too many advantages in meeting "many" women as opposed to just one.  Starting out, we men do not know this foreign culture and we do not understand these women like we do AW.  Just learning how to spot a scammer should be plenty enough reason to meet more than one, because if that one happens to be a scammer and you haven't had other experience with women from this completely different world, she could easily eat you for lunch!  And you can READ all you want to about these nasty scammers, but if you have no true experience with them, you CAN be taken, no matter how sophisticated we may think ourselves..

Has any guy here honestly gone looking for a new car and only looked at only one? (NO flames please, I KNOW women are NOT cars, it is an EXAMPLE!! ;-)  Of course they haven't!  You need to drive a few, compare and contrast, have some criteria in mind to select from.  A hot little sports car might feel great to sit in, but if you don't test drive any other cars before you decide it's the one for you, you might later find quite sadly that those pot holes you are always hitting can be pretty jarring in that hot little sports car compared to Marks Lexus, which you never happened to test drive..

My 2 cents

And for those guys who DID happen to meet just one girl and marry her (like a good friend of mine did) and it has worked, congrats!  But I will say I think you were very, very lucky!

[Del]

... in response to Re: correction, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

You stated; "It is simply a completely un-natural thing to do period!".
May I suggest that for a large portion of the world's population, the "American Way" is un-natural?
Might it be better said that, "It's a different way of doing it?"
I suspect that a discussion (it's not truly a debate) such as this is much like discussing what's the best car or TV to purchase?
The true answer is - it depends!

[Oscar]

... in response to Natural vs Un-natural, posted by Del on Oct 19, 2002

I couldn't agree more Del!  I have said here many times that the way we date and select a marriage partner here in the USA is vastly different than much of the rest of the world!  So yes, I should have qualified my statement with saying that for MOST Americans, what we here on this board are doing is pretty "un-natural"..  It is what I meant, I just didn't clarify..

[KenC]

... in response to Re: correction, posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

Oscar,
First off I want to compliment you on the tone of you post.  This is the way to debate issues.  That being said, I will try to maintain the same level with my opinions.
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On the subject of "leading with marriage on your mind"-
I used to joke that there were two types of daters, one dated for sport and the other to find a mate.  I always fell into the later category.  Marriage may be the ultimate goal, but make marriage your primary agenda in meeting strangers,(no matter how many) seems desperate and forced to me.  Would it not be better to meet someone, get to know them, become friends/lovers, fall in love and then think about marriage?  When you have a "focused goal" as you say, isn't it more likely that you will just pick the best candidate (that was available) and force the rest?  We may have to agree to disagree on this.
-
On your one girl/first trip being unnatural-
You discount the fact that the man could have a huge amount of dating experience in general.  I sing the praises of RW as much as anyone here, but women are women.  If a guy has good dating skills here, he will do well in Russia.  I met and dated many women via the Internet prior to my trip to Russia.  I was well versed in the "fantasy mode" that can be created via the written or spoken word prior to meeting each other.  I see little difference in meeting a RW than the gals I met in PA, OH, TN and IN except for distance of travel. (side note #1: I am 100% Russian and the culture is not as foreign to me as most)((side note #2- For the record, I did meet and date other RW on my trip to meet my wife.  I did want to make sure I wasn't just being overwhelmed by her Russian-ness)
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On your views regarding spotting scammers-
I am of the opinion that this is the most over blown topic on this forum.  "Spotting scammers" is not some mystical talent that is only acquired through meeting many RW.  It is just common sense.  America has as many devious women as Russia.  Wanna hear the story of the AW that ran a credit check on me while we were dating? LOL  Again, if the man is of the habit of getting used by women, he had better beware on his trips to Russia because like every where, there are women in Russia willing to take advantage of him.
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On your analogy of car shopping-
This is exactly the attitude that I feel is most dangerous for men going to Russia.  I think that we are worlds apart on this for a simple reason. (I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only trying to explain what I think our differences could be)  You may have used a very logical approach to an emotional decision.  You logically selected one woman from a group of many to develop an emotional relationship.  I on the other hand, developed an emotional relationship and then logically decided to marry.
KenC

[Oscar]

... in response to Re: Re: correction-long, posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

I always do read your posts Ken and do not discount your particular experience in any way.  I am also glad we can discuss things in this manner.. So thank you as well.

On your comments about "leading with marriage on your mind".  I think that perhaps I would agree about not making it a "primary goal" in a persons younger years..  But for those of us who are in our late 30's and 40's doing this, and really want to settle down, I still feel it perhaps should very much be made to be a "primary goal".  I say this too becuase many of the guys I know at these ages have become professional daters and I believe often, they honestly don't know what they are truly looking for or how to handle moving ahead once they might have found it!  They have become adept at "the chase" but not much else!  I think to have some serious goals about this can be very helpful about this kind of situation.
In all honesty Ken, wouldn't just about any person you know who does NOT understand anything about the whole MOB process, say that ANY guy who goes to the FSU or Brazil or the Phillipines or anywhere else to look for a companion IS "desperate and forced" ;-) I have talked to too many people in my life about this and when I tell them what I'm doing or that I was going over on a trip to see about girls, they just get this glazed look on their face and most DO think "desperate!!", whether we are going to look around there, or whatever! ;-)  I know you know what I mean..
Also Ken, you say "Would it not be better to meet someone, get to know them, become friends/lovers, fall in love and then think about marriage?".  Well, I think that sounds fine BUT I do not believe you really went all the way over there, faced all the skepticism of friends, acquaintances or family just to meet a woman to be buddies with!  I believe you made the decision to go there because you expected to find a WIFE there!  Now this could have been on a more subconscious level than you might have been consciously aware of, but I think we all (except the professional daters who just want to party) went for that same reason..
About picking the "best candidate" and forcing the rest.  I am sure that some guys may do this, but with me for example, all I can say is that having met as many women as I had, for ME, when I met my girl, it was just like coming home... I knew what I didn't want, I knew what I did, and when I did find a woman who met my criteria I had established AND REFINED, the rest of it just melted into place very easily..  I don't know, perhaps we are just different in the way we approach things..  I feel to have goals is very important in all aspects of my life, and that includes relationship goals..  I think just "throwing it all to the winds and just "letting it happen" (I am not at all saying you did this) is a very easy way to end up with exactly what you DON'T want in the long run!  We all know that infatuation can blind us to things that may not always be good for us..  Having specific goals and criteria help to protect us from that factor..

On "your one girl one trip" comments- You say that "women are women" and with that I think I just must disagree..  I do agree that if a man has good dating skills here they will help him in Russia, but these ARE different women!  That is ultimately why you married one isn't it?  Because they are different from what we didn't want that we found here! ;-) Your most important comment in this paragraph to me was that you said you DID meet and date some other RW!  You wanted to make SURE you were not just being overwhelmed with her "Russian-ness"!  That is EXACTLY why I think it is important to date more than just one woman there- to compare, to contrast, because it WAS a different experience and these ARE different women, there is "Russian-ness" because these are Russian women! ;-)  I think it was terribly wise of you to do what you did and I don't think you should down play it at all!

About scammers- I think we will have to disagree on this one because I do think the problem is rampant.  On this board all the time we hear of guys who have been scammed or are just getting scammed etc..  Sure there are scammers here as well, but they speak English and we are from the same culture!  We go over there with hope and faith, thinking these lovely women who just want a good man could never be so deceiving, but they can be and often are at times.  I do not think the scammer issue can be minimized and I believe even a pretty sophisticated guy can be scammed without gaining any experience with RW first..  Just my opinion.

On the analogy of car shopping-  It wouldn't be entirely true to say that I used only a logical approach to an emotional decision.  Because I have taken the time to truly know what I want coupled with what I have come to know is good or not so good for me (many guys do NOT learn from their bad relationships and what patterns are bad for them!)in a woman and set up criteria based on that knowledge, I think it becomes emotional for me.  I don't know if that quite makes sense to you, but it is reality to me.  I had criteria about a woman in regards to- finances, culture, attractiveness, sex, family, children, communication, values, etc.. and when I met that woman who did meet those criteria, it was a very emotional thing for me..  I met plenty of women who met one or two of those criteria that I was attracted to and maybe even had a "crush" on etc.. but I knew that for the long haul, I would need more.  I think that is being wise, not unemotional.

Here's the kicker! ;-)
I personally feel Ken that although you say you "developed a relationship and THEN you logically decided to marry".. I believe that you decided to MARRY, went all the way to the FSU to look for this woman, found one that met many of your criteria you have hardwired into your brain (consciously or unconsciously), dated a few other women to make sure, and then logically decided to marry! ;-)

It's been a great dicsussion.. sorry this was sooo long..  

[KenC]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: correction- VERY long!  ;-), posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

Oscar,
You have your opinion and I have mine.  We are both entitled to them.  I will not add anything to the main topics discussed here except to comment on the following statement:
"I believe that you decided to MARRY, went all the way to the FSU to look for this woman, found one that met many of your criteria you have hardwired into your brain (consciously or unconsciously), dated a few other women to make sure, and then logically decided to marry! ;-)"
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I was actually very pesimistic on my first trip to Russia.  My previous experience with meeting Internet women helped downplay my expectations.  Even though Lena and I got to know each other rather well via phone calls, I never thought that our relationship would get past being friends.  I have always wanted to visit Russia because of my background, so I figured what the hell.  In explanation of her side of this story, I will have to say that her intensions were not matrimonial either.  Lena had been a client of the agency for years and had met many different AM (many younger & richer than I).  She had many proposals but turned them down.  She usually helped the AM to find the right woman he was seeking.  She enjoyed using and improving her English skills.  She also had no desire to leave Russia as she had a good lifestyle there and loved her homeland.  
-
Even after we both knew that there was something very special between us, I still was looking for the "trap door".  I even resisted going the K-1 route because it was too close to committing to marry.  (She came here on a student visa)  Even though we knew we were in love, I still wanted to err on the side of caution and wanted to wait until I could see how she adapted to America.  After a few months here, I knew I didn't want to live without her and popped the question.  Now I don't think I committed premediatated marriage at all.
KenC

[Oscar]

... in response to correction-shorter (but still long), posted by KenC on Oct 19, 2002

But I think that you might be willing to admit that MOST guys going (aside from players) there are going because they really are looking for a wife.  I think your situation was more unusual..

[KenC]

... in response to Ok, Ken, fair nuf.. ;-)  I enjoyed the c..., posted by Oscar on Oct 19, 2002

n/t