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Are you doing a tour? Or a personal trip on your own?

I've considered this, because the idea of a six month visa just seems like a great idea to make sure that you are a good match...

If Brazil doesn't work out for me, that's my next trip...

Also a buddy of mine from Michigan married a woman from Guad about a year ago through Mexican MatchMaker's and has nothing but good things to say about the experience.  I was recently catching up with a gringo who used to post here quite frequently and learned that he had just returned from Guad.  He had only good things to say about his experience at Mexican Matchmakers but hopefully he will post here soon to give a more complete account.

El Diablo

No that may have been the first time they came and I didn't meet either of them then although I may have been in town. Terry recently bought out the other owner.  Last year, probably around April was when I met him in person.  We went out with friends a couple of times, Blues Brothers and a couple of restaurants.

El Diablo

Pete

Pete

  I can't believe you said that.  You obviously haven't spent any time in Mexico.

Pete

The physical features you described regarding Mexican women, are characteristics of northern Mexicans.  From the info I have seen here, the physical features you are looking for becomes more pronounced as you move southward.  In other words the farther you venture away from the American/Mexican border the more common those feature become.

yc

P.S.  Sounds like you have J-Lo fever!!!

Pete

Thereby making the case for assimilation, as far as I am concerned...

-Tai

ps - For those hair-splitters out there, yes I know she was Mexican American.

Pete

On the topic of unusual Spanish speakers I think it's interesting that Ted Kizyinski (sp.??!!) taught himself Spanish and wrote his bomb making notes in that language.

Pete

The FBI won't release Ted's file but I have it on pretty darn good authority that Ted in fact did make it to Cali.  The sad thing is that even after giving Beckwith 10 grand he still couldn't get laid, in the cleavage capital of all places, sad but true.  Anyway, I think Ted may still be posting lewd comments to bulletin boards.  Is it possible that someone on this board is really in fact Ted.  Consider this, if you take Ted's last name "Kaczynski", inverse it, change the font to wingdings 10 and then to Gill Sans 12 with italic what you will see is MALANDRO.  Makes you wonder doesn't it.....

El Diablo

For the record.

H2-Oh

I've been rejected by a number of women in Latin America. The reason was that these particular women had many choices and thought they could do better, as foolish as that sounds (grin). These ladies were either well-educated, middle class professionals, or very good looking, or both. There is more competition for these ladies, and they have more options, so they tend to be more selective.

I've received much more interest from women who have fewer choices, i.e., women who are poorer, less educated, less attractive, and older.

It's similar with Latina immigrants who are already living in the U.S. Here, even the poorer ones tend to have jobs, and if they are mildly attractive, receive a lot of attention from men, immigrants and citizens alike. So, regardless of the degree to which they've assimilated, they have more choices now than they did back in Mexico, Colombia, etc. So they become more selective. For many of them, the U.S. is "The Source."

I've dated numerous (mainly Latina) immigrants here in Los Angeles. (In fact, it's been years since I dated an American-born lady.) They often speak some English, which is an advantage. But I find the selection overall is better at "the Source." There, I have more & better choices: looks, personality, education, etc. So I'm willing to go far to shop at the better "market."

BTW, although it hurts to get dumped, I've dropped many women for the same reasons others have dumped me: They didn't have enough of what I wanted; I thought I could do better.

Well said John and I agree with your premise on all accounts.

I'm not convinced that a typical Colombian woman in Cali is any better marriage material than a typical Colombian woman in Queens. My friend I visited out in Long Island was absolutely a catch, everything we love about Latin women and I even made a play for her. (-:  However her options to marry a good gringo increased 50 fold when she moved to the States from Bogota. She wasn't limited to the latest and greatest gringo passing through Bogota for a week's vacation.  She could take her time and date from a broader group of available men who lived closer to her. In other words, the competition for her among gringos increased dramaticly as soon as she moved to the United States.

The truth about going to the source is that the competion at the source for women who want to marry gringos is MUCH less.  For every guy who travels and is serious about marriage, there are possibly as much as five women who have similar intentions.  This is a statistical gold mine and in my opinion this is the best reason to go there.  

El Diablo

H2-Oh

El Diablo

The baseball player who says he can't speak English
is probably full of s**t. I'll bet he speaks (although
maybe not very well), and that his problem is more
arrogance than anything. I have met plenty of Mexicans
here in  Texas who have not assimilated,  but many
more who have. And I have met plenty of Eastern
Europeans who put all the language burden on one or
two family members and then decline to make any sort
of other attempts to assimilate.

I think the key is the person who comes here and her
attitude, rather than whether or not she is here before
meeting her "media naranja". I think that's one of the
reasons for the 90 day window with the fiancee visa.
Some women can't handle the change and want to go
home in 3 months because the task of assimilation is
too great.

But, if you are from Texas, you are aware of what I mean about the sub-culture.

You say that "sooner or later they have to learn the language?"... I dispute that.

I go up to my bank, and before I can withdraw cash, I have to select english or spanish as my language.

My voice mail gives spanish options following english.

I know MANY people in the DFW area who have been here for years and have NEVER learned english, because THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

I also know many who have learned english and learned it quickly because THEY WANTED TO.

What were the reasons for coming to America? To find a better way of life? Or to continue their way of life while making more money.

There is a HUGE difference.

And, I still contend, unless you are willing to completely change your lifestyle, you better think about it.

If I met a woman in Colombia, or Mexico, or wherever... Then she would be coming here because she married me. Her motivation (I hope) is that she wants a good marriage and happy family.

This is an incredible statement in her attitude. Will she want to assimilate? Of course she will, because she wants to make her marriage work and have a healthy family.

You just can't make that blanket statement about every Mexican you meet in Dallas. They didn't come here (some of them) to be part of America. They came to make more money, and have a better lifestyle, or because their family moved here... That is just not the same...

For a moment there I was feeling like the board's "Designated Bigot".

Which I'm really not. I just want a wife who wants to be a part of my family. And that family is American. She should be justifiably proud of her family and traditions... But she should also be proud of her family and traditions as well...

Speaking of sub-culture... let me recount my first experience with one...

My first girlfriend... back when I was a wee lad in Pittsburgh, PA, was Russian Orthodox.

Now... that's not any kind of a subculture to worry about...right? I mean, she was third generation american. Didn't even speak Russian. Went to my high school. No worries...right?

Wrong.

I was never good enough for her in her mother's eye because I was not Russian Orthodox (and was not about to convert.) I went to mass with them on special occassions... I celebrated Chirstmas with them on January 7th. I tried to fit in.

But I just wasn't Russian Orthodox.

After two and a half years of dating, I think her mother started to panic. She had hoped that I was just a passing phase her daughter was going through... but we were starting to get serious.

So... what did she do?

She started taking her daughter to visit the SEMINARY. (Russian Orthodox priests are allowed to marry, you see...)

Eventually, my girlfriend got the picture... "Mark is a good boyfriend. But only a Russian Orthodox can make a good husband." And, suddenly, there were so many to choose from!

We broke up a few weeks later. I never saw it coming.

That was my first experience with the power of a sub-culture.

I tell you guys... you ignore it at your own risk...

In your story, I think your girlfriend should have been more forthright with you in the beginning and by not coming clean early on she did an injustice to you.  But IMO the injustice was the lack of forthrightness and not that she wanted to marry only an Orthodox man.  

El Diablo

At the time, of course, I hated the mother for it.. but the fact is that her mother was right. I see that now, some twenty years later.

Point is, though, that culture and sub-culture matter.

It's nothing that should prevent the search for foreign brides... but it needs to be understood...

From how I read MarkInTx's story: It seems that it wasn't that his girlfriend was set on marrying an Orthodox, but that the mother wanted her to marry an Orthodox man. So, the mother stepped in and "engineered" the ending that she wanted for her daughter.

It seems to me(given the scenario as described) that if the mother hadn't "intervened" there would likely have been another outcome.

From your comment I take it that you see no problem with what the mother did to "change things", in the name of "keeping within the faith"?

Also: Your other statement...

"It's not because I think other religions are bad but rather because I want to share the most important things in my life with someone who can share them with me more fully."

So if every Latina that you approached applied that same basic premise TO YOU, in terms of: "It's not that gringos are bad but...." -What would your feelings be on that? Would it be wrong in your opinion, or would you be able to just respect/appreciate it and go search for another type of woman?

just curious

-Tai

I don't know enough about what the mother actually did or did not do.   Having said that I would not at all be surprised if the mother spoke to her daughter about Mark being non-Orthodox and the implications of what that would mean.  I suppose I would have received similar treatment if I was becoming serious about a non-Catholic.  I don't think this is a bad thing necessarily as parents do have a role as teachers.  When you consider her age, I think it was appropriate.

Again, based on the scenario and information as given...

The girlfriend's "age" was not the motivating factor in what the mother did. -The mother was not steering her daughter away from thoughts of marriage, but from thoughts of mariage to the NON-Orthodox man.

The factor of whether you would've received similar treatment...is that what decided for you that the behavior wasn't "a bad thing necessarily"?

The fact that particular behaviors are commonplace does not in and of itself make the behaviors right. There are quite a number of traditions, "behaviors", and belief systems that continue to be passed from parents to children...that the world would be much better without.

As far as the role of the parents as teachers. What did she need to "teach" to the daughter in that scenario? The daughter was not in any "peril".

It seems to me that what this type of parent may be "teaching" her daughter is: "If you don't like what's going on in someones life, it's okay to manipulate things until they suit you."
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I am not trying to knock anyone's religion. A person's religious beliefs are very important to him/her, and I can respect that. BUT, when someone has children, they are their responsibility not their property.

It is each parents "choice" of whether or not to raise a child within the religious system that they were raised in, or another, or even whether to raise a child within a religious system at all.

It is the "choice" of the parents to decide to send the child to public or private schools, enroll them in extra curricular activities, expose them to cultural diversity, etc.

The guiding factor of the "choices" is the ultimate
"responsibility" of the parent; to raise an individual capable of functioning in and contributing to society. -To raise an individual capable of formulating his/her OWN thoughts, and make his/her own decisions.

In the end, if that means that the individual decides to take all paths directly opposite of those which the parents took, then so be it, and the parents should be supportive and respectful of it.

just my .02

-Tai

Tai,

The way a parent speaks with a 17 year old teenage daughter is very different then how they speak to her let's say 10 years later as an adult.  I think you may be assuming a lot of things.  We don't really know what her mother said to discourage her daughter although I think it would be better to presume that she did it from love rather than anything bad.  

When you say she wasn't in peril, you are seeing this through your own view of the world.  That's fine, we all do this but her view may be very different than yours.  I know that my mother would think I was in peril not from a physical viewpoint but from a religious one if I was considering marriage to someone outside the Faith.  I'm pretty sure she would let me know her opinion and rather than seeing it as manipulation, I would appreciate her counsel.  Hey my family talked to me about my trips to Colombia.  They were concerned about my physical well being and while it may have been a bit annoying in the moment I understood that it came from love and nothing sinnister.  If you want to think that her mother acted terribly and manipulative fine but I'm not at all convinced of it.  

When children grow up and become adults, I agree parents need to back off a bit.  But even in backing off I think a parent can give an opinion or counsel.   My parents do it and while I don't always agree with their opinion I appreciate the fact they care enough to give it.

El Diablo

Come on, give me a little credit over here...

I am well aware of the differences that may exist between how one addresses and interacts with a 17 year old, and an adult of say 27(10 years later).

However, a 17 year old is also one year away from being able to vote, enter the military, and consideration as an adult in the eyes of the law.

As far as your thought that I "may be assuming a lot of things"....All my points were based on and around the information given in MarkInTX's limited post. They are not meant to be taken as a strict analysis of his particular case, but that case does raise some interesting questions.

-And what is anyones response to anyone else's post here anyway, but an opinion based on the information given.

As far as whether someone places themself in religious peril by the mere act of being in a serious relationship or marriage to someone not of their exact faith or perceived level of faith(praticing versus not, etc.), I don't follow that argument at this point. -But, again to each his/her own.

I didn't say that the girl's mother was sinister. I said she engineered/manipulated the outcome to suit her, as a result of her "individual" religious feelings, versus give an opinion/counsel and then leaving it.

As far as what your family did with you regarding Colombia...

The fact that they expressed their opinions is understandable if not expected. However, unless they did things to "interfere" with your intentions to go there, then we are not talking about the same issue.

I'm paraphrasing here but, you mentioned in an earlier post that most people would not understand what it means to be a "practicing" Catholic.

To that I'll just say this...my family's religious "legacy" has given me interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will never have.

-Tai

ps - You know what they say about opinions... ;)

Tai Writes;

Come on, give me a little credit over here...  I am well aware of the differences that may exist between how one addresses and interacts with a 17 year old, and an adult of say 27(10 years later).

Diablo responds;

I was only responding to your statement that "age was NOT a motivating factor in what the mother DID". I don't want to misrepresent you but this statement and your example left me with the impression that you believed AGE was not at all factored into the mother's actions.

In the context of thought alone, I agree the mother would not want her daughter to marry a non-Orthodox man whether the daughter was 17 or 40.  However how the mother RESPONDS to her thought of not wanting this to happen may very well be age dependent. Hence my example of the 17 year old teenager and the 27 year old adult where it is quite normal and customary for a parent to respond or act differently depending upon age.  In essence my point being that AGE could very well be a controlling factor in what she did.   I think this is an importantant distinction and I was trying to offer you alternative ways at looking at the mother's actions.

Tai Writes;

As far as your thought that I "may be assuming a lot of things"....All my points were based on and around the information given in  MarkInTX's limited post. They are not meant to be taken as a strict analysis of his particular case, but that case does raise some interesting questions.

Diablo responds;

OK I understand but my impression rightly or wrongly was that you were assigning bad intentions to the mother's actions while discounting age as a controlling factor in her response.  We can argue about whether the mother's actions were misguided however I did not read from Mark's limited response that the mother was not well intentioned.  From the perspective of her culture and her belief system what the mother did was not particularly unusual.  It might even be expected.  So I think her intentions were consistent with her belief system and in that sense she was well intentioned.

As you suggested,  because a tradition or belief system exists, it does not necessarily make it right but on the other hand it doesn't make it necessarily wrong either.  I suppose it's a function of perspective.  I believe the mother may have been acting in accordance to her beliefs, beliefs you may find antiquated and old fashioned but beliefs the family held to nevertheless.

The whole purpose of my original post to Mark was to point out that actions that may have seemed arbitrary and without reason where actually the product of a well established belief system.  People may not like the belief system but that's really another topic which will never be settled here.

Tai writes;

As far as whether someone places themself in religious peril by the mere act of being in a serious relationship or marriage to someone not  of their exact faith or perceived level of faith(praticing versus not, etc.), I don't follow that argument at this point. -But, again to each  his/her own.

Diablo's response;

I think you may trivializing marriage from an Orthodox perspective when you say the MERE act.  Marriage is looked upon as very serious and an act which is considered Sacred.  Orthodoxy looks at a mixed marriage as a potentially serious peril to family life and Faith.  The dissunity that exists within Christianity is in essence brought into the heart of the home. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children etc. The temptation to religious indifference can easily arise.

Tai writes;

As far as what your family did with you regarding Colombia... The fact that they expressed their opinions is understandable if not expected. However, unless they did things to "interfere" with your intentions to go there, then we are not talking about the same issue.

Diablo's response;

If I was 17 years old and I told my parents I was going to Colombia, I can guarantee you that they they would interfere.  Interference would come initially through persuasion but if that did not work they would most likely forbid me.  They would interfere not because they like to control my life or because they are not well intentioned but because they believe I am in some form of peril.  

If Mark's girlfriend were older and her mother forbidd her from marrying Mark then yes you and I would be in agreement.

Tai writes;

I'm paraphrasing here but, you mentioned in an earlier post that most people would not understand what it means to be a "practicing" Catholic.   To that I'll just say this...my family's religious "legacy" has given me interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will  never have.

Diablo's response;

What I actually said was that some many pople don't understand that being a practicing Catholic is MORE than just attending Mass on Sunday.  It's really a way of life and a culture onto it's own.  

If your family's religious legacy has proven to be a negative experience in your life, I'm truly sorry.  Mine has been very positive and I am thankful for it.

Take care, El Diablo

P.S.  Feel free to respond to my post but after that why don't we continue our discussion at Pete's next party.  I'm getting behind on my work with all my posting this past week. (GRIN)

This is my last installment on this thread. Overall, I think that we at least see where each other is coming from.

That being said, I have just a few corrections and comments...

I didn't say that age was not "a" motivating factor. I said age was not THE motivating factor, because the mother was not discouraging the daughter from the idea of marriage as a result of her age, but from marriage to a non-Orthodox man. -She in fact steered her daughter towards others that were more suitable in her eyes. If age was THE factor then she would have discouraged her from marriage at her age, regardless.

About my statement concerning "mere act"...

I said "being in a serious relationship or marriage". In this particular case, the issue started because the daughter had been DATING for a while(for the sake of argument, long enough to be considered serious) and the mother developed fears that it "might" lead to marriage. I may be "trivializing marriage from an Othodox perspective"? By pointing out a flaw in the perspective? -I think not.

If the Orthodox perspective is such that the possibility of marriage to a non-Orthodox poses a "potentially serious peril to family life and Faith."....why did the mother allow the dating to go on for so long? Is 1 date allowed in this perspective? 4 dates? 10??? -If it's not allowed in the end, then it should be that way from the beginning.  That type of perspective sounds like the equivalent of a man telling his son that he can sleep with as many "other" women as he wants, but when it's time to marry, he must find one within his "own" group.

Also, you say "Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children etc."  -In application to the particular couple...what "tension"? The daughter was alright with her mixed faith relationship already. Her religious mentality wasn't preventing her from dating a non-Orthodox guy. The only tension involved was the mother's personal tension about it.

-In a general sense, I agree that religious differences "can" become a problem...but that is a possibility not an inevitability.

As far as my family's religious legacy giving me "interesting insights into the world of religion that most people will never have"...

Where in my post did I say that the legacy has proven to be a negative experience in my life?

WOW, El D. That is a MAJOR assumption, don't you think? Sounds a little bit like a personal "jab"...from the devils advocate no less. -Ouch.

-Tai

ps - "Religion can be a touchy subject, especially when challenges to a belief system are involved". -This was the thought that continually ran through my head while posting to this thread...I should've listened to it.

Hi Tai,

It was an assumption and my apologies if it was not accurate.  I was sort of reading between the lines and thought that your comment was your way of saying that the religion you were brought up in was something you were glad to be rid of.  I didn't mean for it to be a jab although I could see how you might see it that way.

Regarding a debate about religion or belief systems,  I'm generally not offended by these discussions and in our discussion I think we've both acted  fine.

Just a couple of quick comments, you may have missed my point about age.  I agree that the reason or THE motivation for what she did was that Mark was not Orthodox.  But my point is that age was likely a CONTROLLING factor in how she responded.  If she were 27, I believe the mother would have responded differently.  She would have probably spoken to her but I would be very surprised if she would have forbidden her or paraded her around the seminary.  (-:

If the mother had blessed the union from the beginning but then later changed her mind,  I agree that would be an injustice.  If you read my first post, I came to more or less the same conclusion as you.  As Mark has given us more information, I was under the impression the mother was against it from the get-go and had actually forbid the relationship in the beginning.

Regarding tension, we're basicly talking about two teenagers in love and as they mature I suspect tension could easily arise from their differences in Faith.  I think a Protestant would have a lot of problems with particular Orthodox/Catholic practices regarding family planning among other things.  I think these things are not insurmountable however I think they are very serious.  The standard for 'peril' is not necessarily inevitability it could be something less and in the realm of possibility.

OK back to work for me....

El Diablo

I wasn't trying to get the last word in.  Just had a little break in work flow.  So by all means feel free to respond and if I have time all do the same.  It does appear however that were close to taking this as far as it can go.  One thing I do want to say however is that for me it doesn't particularly matter that the mother has a similar Faith as I.  I would like to think that I would more or less hold to a similar principle regardless of the Faith in question...

El Diablo

Yeah, I think that we've pretty much wrung this one out. It has been a stimulating exchange though, and I do appreciate your perspectives, as they are characteristically well thought out.

So, until next time....

Take care.

Tai

First off, I am sure that Tanya's mother would tell you that what she did, she did in the name of Love.

Forgive me if I disagree, however :-)

What I didn't say in my short syopsis was that Tanya's mother's first move was quite different.

She simply forbade us to see each other. Period. No calls, no dates, no nothing. One day, she announced we could no longer date.

What happened?

Come on! We were teenagers in love...what do you think happened.

We saw each other ever chance we could get... and everyone was helping us... who wouldn't help the poor star-crossed romeo and juliet?

It was after she discovered (after a year of this) that we were still very much seeing each other that she changed tactics, and permitted us to date. Then she went with the seminary tactic. That worked much better.

In the end, if she hadn't intervened, I think Tanya and I may have broken up anyway... Tanya very much craved her mother's approval... so who knows?

BTW... the rest of the story...

Last I heard, Tanya was married to a fireman, and had two kids. Her husband was well on the way to being an alcoholic (as he father was) and cheated on her fairly openly. Tanya had gained about 40 pounds, and didn't look exactly happy.

But... you know what? Her husband was Russian Orthodox... so I guess all is well that ends well, eh?

In each of our lives we hold to a certain hierarchy of truths.  For me, my religion is number one but for others it may be something entirely else.  I think when we look to see if we are compatible with others for marriage we look to this list.  Some people may ignore the list but they may be doing so at their own peril.

In your example, if a lady excluded me from consideration because high on her list was that she preferred a male who came out of the same latino culture than I would accept it and let things be.  She might believe that this life experience within the community brought forth qualities that she desired.  This is fine for me but you must also remember that for a believing Catholic, Faith would always come before this aspect of culture.   However I don't see any thing morally wrong with making this kind of choice.

Now lets take it a little further however.  Lets say I'm a latino in Colombia, I possess all the qualities that are on her list but her mother says no you shouldn't marry El D because he's purple.  Now in this case I'd have a problem with the mother's interference for obvious reasons.

El Diablo

To be honest, I've never thanked the lady, but I should have... because the truth is that she saved us from an unhappy marriage. We were really more different than we would have admitted.

But you raise some good questions... because things are different with a grown man...

-- Jeff S.

From what I have seen and heard, the change has already begun.  Right here in Charlotte last year, there was an article in the local paper about the weight the hispanic vote is having in the polls.  According to that article they predict that in the next few years the hispanics vote is going to carry more weight in the city than any other minority group.  Guess what... politicians are going to do whatever they can to get those votes.  There is already one school I can recall where the curriculum is taught both in english and spanish.  As time passes the sub-culture is going to become more and more main-stream culture.  So I believe you are right on the money.

yc

When I was in college, I worked at Costco(Walmart type store) where there were mostly 2nd generation Mexicans. The funny thing was that with all the Spanish "phrases" flowing around the place on a regular basis...whenever a customer that didn't speak any English needed help, they sent them to me or one of the Latinos born in Mexico or Honduras.

The first couple of times that they sent the "Spanish only" customers to me I thought they were just trying to give me a hard time, but soon realized that they weren't kidding when I overheard them say "Lo siento, no entiendo mucho Español. Habla con ese moreno"

Tai

Even more interesting was when the people born in Mexico asked me "why" I took the time to learn Spanish, as if it was a "strange" thing to do.

Lest we forget.

Thanks,

yc

Yes I have been to LA a few times and the people would most definitely expect it. Actually, the relatives expect the gringos that are marrying into their families to learn their language.

Of course many gringos never do because of the silly "I live in America so I don't need to speak Spanish" argument, but the families have little respect for this because it is saying to them that the gringo does not believe their language and/or culture is important enough to bother with.

Example:
An acquaintance of mine has been married to a woman from Barranquilla for going on three years, and he still only knows about three or four very basic phrases in Spanish.

Personally, I find that to be disrespectful to his wife and family...but hey, what do I know. -The first time I was around his Colombian family, we were in the room with his brothers and sisters in law and they were talking non-stop crap about him -right in front of his face. Once his wife came into the room and told them that I could understand what they were saying, it was DEAD SILENCE for the next twenty minutes while they sweated it out, wondering if I was going to tell on them.

Supposedly it wasn't like that in the beginning, but as time went by and he continued to go down for visits, and it became clear to them that he had no interest in learning Spanish, his "shine" quickly tarnished with them.

Tai

-- Jeff S.

Let's consider a few things here. First, even with
Chinese and Japanese immigration, Latin American
countries have a more or less homogeneous
population, as opposed to a society made up entirely of
immigrants (at one time or another) such as the US.
Therefore, Spanish is predominant, although many LA
countries have more than one (ie: Spanish and
Guarani in Paraguay, Spanish and Lunfardo in
Argentina, etc). In a homogeneous society it's more
expected and necessary to learn the predominant
language.

I have lived in several countries and visited more than
30, half of them in LA. In LA you need Spanish
because, simply put, it's the money language. In
Europe the money languages are English and
German, as well as the language of the country you are
in. Throughout Europe English is a required language
in schools for this very reason, not for cultural reasons.
In the US, English, and now Spanish, are the money
languages. I have lost count of the times I have made
money where others failed simply because I speak
Spanish. So if someone doesn't learn English he or
she really isn't that bad off unless they live in an area
where there is no real Hispanic subculture.

But the big payoff is with the family. They think I am all
that because I speak Spanish, and I am perceived as
being more friendly and outgoing, smarter and
generally a better catch than that other gringo who
married my novia's aunt. He doesn't speak Spanish, no
one knows him well as a result and he seems very
foreign to them.

Bottom line, the US is no longer an English-speaking  
country. This is hard to accept, but we now live in a
bilingual society, possibly a truly multilingual society by
the time my great grandchildren are adults. In other
words, we're becoming like Europe, whether we like it
or not.

-- Jeff S.

WE ARE ONE COUNTRY!

Yes, in land mass we are like several countries, but we are not. And we dare not accept this.

There is a REASON why the Euro is having a hard time catching on.

If we allow this country to split along its ethnic lines, we will find America becomes balkanized... and we will suffer as a country. We need to think, act, and be ONE country.

If you live in a country... you should learn its language. Period.

If I moved to Germany for a year, I would learn German. If I MOVED there of my own volition, I would NOT expect that country to supply everything in my "home" language...

That never really occurred to me.  But as I rethink it now, you are absolutely correct.  It is disrepectful.  Eventhough I am going to learn Spanish.  My reasons were simply because I desire to, I wanted to make communicating in LA easier for myself(as well as broadening my choices of latinas) and finally to ease the stress of her assimulating into this country.  But I believe you pointed out the most important reason of all to learn Spanish, to show respect for her, her culture and most important her family.  After all, her family is your family now.

I have never witnessed what you just described about your acquantance occuring amoug in-laws, but I have witnessed it where americans have been among locals in other countries and even when the locals was among a group of americans.

BTW, did you ever told your acquaintance about what happened?

Well that's were it gets pretty sad...he KNOWS that they talk about him. -He just accepts it. His position is basically that since he can't understand them, what they are saying isn't important.

He said, "Hey if its really important my wife will tell me what's going on." -Yes, this guy is an idiot.

I had to distance myself from him, because his attitude was annoying and offensive to me as well. He had a BAD case of the "Ugly American" syndrome. He is one of those guys that thinks he knows everything already...and what he doesn't  already know isn't worth knowing.

I've recently heard through several sources that his wife is seriously considering leaving him. Gee, I wonder why?

As to whether I told him right then? NO WAY!

We were WAAAAY out in the boonies...about 45 minutes outside of Barranquilla...up in the hills. -We took a cab; the roads deteriorated more and more the closer we got to the house. At one point the driver could only go about 2 miles an hour because of the CRATERS in the road.

Then as we made our way up into the hills, parts of the road were washed or crumbled away down the side of the hill(cliff). The road finally got so bad that we had to get out and hike the last half mile up a SERIOUS hill, which culminated in a stroll through "Barrio Peligroso". -I don't know what the REAL name of the barrio is, but they way the guys hanging out in front of the pool hall(a shack with one table in it) were looking at us...I'm sure the only thing between us and a mugging was that my acquaintaince's brother in law knew them.

Was I going to open my mouth THEN and potentially start a "situation" without having any idea where the heck I was, or how to get back to the city? No chance. There was no phone. We had to tell the taxi driver to just come back for us at a certain time....hours later.

As the saying goes, "My mama didn't raise no fool".

Tai

Forgive me for inquiring farther, but does not this guy love his wife?  I
know guys that are married to unreasonable wives, but IMHO making the
effort to learn Spanish is not all that unreasonable if it will ease
tension with his in-laws.  I am sure if the roles were reversed he would
expect the same, but then again maybe not.  I think you pointed out
already he has deeper underlying issues.  Language learning can be a
difficult task but not unobtainable.  Does he not realized that when
he married this woman he also married her family?  Sometimes in order to
make a marriage work, a spouse must make certain issue a priority even
when they themself considers it unimportant.  I have learn from past
mistake that this usually applys more to us guys than the females.
We(as men) have a tendency to dismisses things just because we do not
consider them important.  Sounds like your acquaintance maybe aware of
his inadequacies already.

How did such a guy every became involved with a latina?  What did she saw
in him?

He started pursuing Latinas after back to back failed relationships with AW. If you listen to him tell it, the problem was with the AW. -Yeah, right.

Many of the very same points that you have listed have been told to him MANY times by NUMEROUS people. All of us could see where it(his relationship) was going. -But this guy is just too big of a jerk for his own good.

He puts his best foot forward in the beginning to impress them, and then once he feels he has them(or marries them), he shows his true colors...and they leave him.

When this wife leaves him, he will just say "she" has the issues, and then move on to another.

Mark my words, he will continue to have failed relationships - because he is arrogant as hell, a walking oxymoron; too "smart" to "learn" from his mistakes.

-Tai

ps - Okay, so maybe he's just a moron. ;)

Last night my wife and I had a 2 hour non-stop conversation at the dinner table in Spanish.  My Spanish is pretty rough after only 3 months, but we speak spanish all the time.  We can talk about anything now.

It's all about motivation.  What are you willing to do to have the best chance for success in marriage with one of these girls?  And it's really not that tough once you have a Colombian Novia.  You just go for it, and start rambling.  It makes for great laughs when you screw up...  These relationships take so much patience, if a guy isn't willing to learn Spanish, it aint going to fly in my opionion.

Nos vamos
Wayne

I can hardly speak spanish understandably, let alone spell it....  It's gonna be a long road!

Two, Why would I want to learn Spanish just because I am reading this board? My lady speaks Potuguese...

You stated this very well. I can't think of a thing to add. You bring up an excellent point with the "You can get a driver's license, but what happens if you crash?"

One thing I have found interesting in this debate is that (I think) everyone who contributes to this board and who is from a Latin country seems to think this is a no-brainer: to succeed in the country, you must learn the language.

It seems to be the "understanding gringos" who have a tough time understanding this...

A couple of yers ago, I dated an incredible woman who was from Argentina. She came here at age five. Her father taught her english by reading her words out of a dictionary every evening and having her repeat them back to him.

Today she is one year away from her Phd and speaks three languages fluently.

I have the utmost respect for her, and my one regret is that I never met her father. (Who lives today in Agentina, btw...) He was quite a man...

And your right,  I forgot that there are other languages being spoken by the ladies in these relationships on these boards.   You're right...no need for you to speak Spanish.  That is until, or if you start chasing Colombian chicas.

Aii aii aii!

We were founded by four frenchmen. Once they were in a high level meeting with some senior IBM VPs, and the negotiations were getting heated. They started talking to one another in french... saying that the IBM guys were stupid...and what have you.

Anyway... they IBM VP stands up, and announces the meeting is OVER! And leaves.

Turns out he headed up the france division for years and spoke fluent french!

But ... one of the cool things about marrying a foreign wife, to me, is learning a language that you can communicate with her in, and have it be your little secret. Frankly, that is one of the reasons why a Brazilian woman has appeal... I can imagine learning enough portuguese to talk to her privately in front of others.

Frankly, I think that would be REALLY great!

Culture shock is no joke. I spent an extended period of time in Colombia, and I did hit that "wall". A feeling of being overwhelmed just kind of washed over me, and all I could think of was taking a break from Spanish. I wanted to talk to someone, anyone, IN ENGLISH, but there was no one around. The feeling passed after a couple of days, helped by the thoughts of what it would be like if I spoke little or no Spanish...which would've been more like the REAL culture shock that many Colombianas experience here with little or no English skills and husbands that don't speak Spanish.

Tai

BTW, are you actively searching or just interested?

yc

I used to date a girl who lived on a street named Avenida Gaviota, here in Southern California. I asked her neighbor how long he'd lived there. Then answer came back 13 years. Then I asked him if he knew what Gaviota meant. He shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't have a clue. That was a real eye opener to me.

BTW, I'm pretty conversant in three languages. Japanese at home, Spanish at work and English everywhere else.

-- Jeff S.

A Mexican lady was guilty of child neglect, and brought to court. Can't remember all of the details now. But as part of the sentencing, the judge ORDERED her to speak English to her children because by not doing so, she was limiting her children's ability to succeed.

The jude was caught in a firestorm of protest from Mexican groups and eventually had to rescind his order.

If you were interested in assimilating... why would you be offended by that judge's ruling?

Isn't the first way to assimilate into a new culture by learning the language...???

I agree and if you follow the posts you'll find that I'm not the one who suggested that women who come on their own hook are less likely to assimilate.  I think that was MarkInTex who brought that up.

Those who have come here, and have chosen to live in a sub-culture, instead of joining the mainstream are less likely to assimilate.

OBVIOUSLY!!!

How can I know this? Because: THEY HAVEN'T ASSIMILATED!

You think they're going to change their mind just because they meet you???

OK Mark I understand what you are saying.  On the other-hand does a person have to move out of their own ethnic community to be assimilated?

If we all stay in our little communities, surrounded by our comfort zones, how is this country supposed to integrate all of the ideas from all of the cultures.

I tire of special interests.

I wish we all had a common interest... and just different voices to express it.

I disagree totally. I think you are taking this idea of assimilation way too far and don't believe the country would be the better for it.  I have no problem with people learning English, having a common language has some very important practical aspects to it and it may help national unity.  But suggesting ethnic groups must move out of their communities in order to integrate into your idea of what America is, sounds controlling to me and reduces America to the least common denominater. Well at least that's my opinion.  In your model, Irish, Italian, and Slavic communities from the last century were a bad thing.  I live near San Fransisco, is China town bad? What about the Mission District which is heavily Latino?  I guess we need to tell the Filipino's out in Daly City to get out of town and move into the suburbs.

El Diablo

But, yes... I think that if we all stay in our own little worlds, America becomes Europe, and that is tragic.

America has grown to its prominence because it was "One Nation."

There is a famous quote by CS Lewis that describes what I am talking about.

CS Lewis was one of the most prominant christian writers of his day. Someone once asked him if the world needed more Chirstian books. He replied:

"We don't need more Christian Books. We need more Christians writing books."

Do you understand the distinction? How the former gets relegated to a special interest shelf of the bookstore, but how the latter can help change ideas?

I don't say that the Colombian sub-culture needs to become "whitebread americans"... I say that they need to become Americans. They need to speak the language, go to the schools, get good jobs, vote in elections, and speak out in the public debate. That's what I mean by assimilation.

And this is true of every nationality and ethnic group. Until they do that, theirs is just another "special interest" voice that no one is going to care about except their own "people".

That cheats America of having their ideas in the over-all marketplace of ideas.

Alex Rodriguez is the highest paid player in baseball not because of his ethnicity, not in spite of it... but because of the way he plays the game. Happily, his ethnic origin is irrelevant.

If we don't get that way in America at large, we're all in big trouble...

Now are there people who live in these ethnic communities, who for whatever reason never become full functioning members of society.  I'm sure there are but there are people like this everywhere in society, not just in the latin barrios.

El Diablo

Maybe we need to define that?

A sub-culture is not just an "ethnic neghborhood."

Listen, I grew up in Pittsburgh. We had our ethinc communities. Nothing wrong with that.

We all knew where to go to get the best Lasagna, or Bagels, or Peroghis...

But we also all could speak the same language, and no one was asking for a special "Jewish ATM" to be installed, and when I called over to the italian district, they didn't answer the phone in italian and expect me to be able to speak their language.

There is a HUGE difference between an ethnic community and a sub-culture.

Until you can accept that, we really have nothing more to discuss...

This whole thread has become pointless...

El Diablo;

OK Mark I understand what you are saying. On the other-hand does a person have to move out of their own ethnic community to be assimilated?

Mark's response;

YES And if they don't... our country is the worse for it.   If we all stay in our little communities, surrounded by our comfort zones, how is this country supposed to integrate all of the ideas from  all of the cultures.  I tire of special interests.  I wish we all had a common interest... and just different voices to express it.

Now if it bothers you that I'm questioning this than so be it, this is a discussion board and people will have different views.  I was careful to ask about ethnic communities because I thought it was a much more easily defineable classification than this idea of sub-culture. I know an ethnic community when I see it but sub-culture I'm not sure about.

But when I said that, I was taking your broad definition of a sub-culture... You seemed to be using community and sub-culture interchangeably, so I responded as such.

To be distinct:

There is a difference.

Communities are good.

Sub-cultures are bad.

OK?

But when I said that, I was taking your broad definition of a sub-culture... You seemed to be using community and sub-culture interchangeably, so I responded as such.

To be distinct:

There is a difference.
Communities are good.
Sub-cultures are bad.
OK?

Diablo responds;  (-:

I never defined sub-culture, it's your term not mine. I'm not exactly sure what it is to be honest and if you go back and read my posts I never even used the phrase except in the very last post above, long after your response of YES to my question.  So on the contrary, when I asked the question and CLEARLY used the term "ethnic community", I think it was you who were confused and responded in terms of sub-culture and not ethnic community as was written in my question.   I'm not a mind reader and so I can only go by your words, not your thoughts or intentions.

Anyway, is there even a difference between my view of an ethnic community and your term sub-culture.  If there is a distinction,  I'm not clear on what it is.

What I am clear on however is that you believe "communities are good" and "sub-cultures are bad".  (-:

El Diablo