A diiferent perspective

[Pete E]

It seems there is a tendency for all the problem stories to get reported,which is fine,but its only part of the story.Its easy to conclude from this that the chances of getting a bad girl are extremely high.
We don't hear many possitive stories.A number of our regular posters here are in marriages that seem to be working from extremely well to certainly worth having.They have told parts of their stories in the past and see no reason to repeat them I guess,but a newcomer hear could get an extremely unbalenced perspective.
Even though my marriage didn't work I have been positive and optomistic about the chances for a guy to find a really good girl.I think those chances are still there.I still believe a sincere guy with realistic expectations and some time,good judgement and patience is almost assured of success.Unless of course he gets himself in to the kind of problems we hear alot about here.
There are alot of ways to screw up.We have seen alot of examples of that.
First there is the guy who is sincere but who's judgement just goes out the window when he meets a very attractive latina.It seems the more attractive the bigger negative effect on judgement.He basically choses the wrong girl to start with,ignoring lots of inconsistencies and questionable stories.Then he can get so hooked in to the relationship that even when it would seem to be totally clesar he is dealing with the wrong person he wants to believe she is now different or will change or it will work.About as much chance as a tiger changing its stripes.I don't think my friend Andy would be offended if I put him in this catagory.I watched alot of what went on when he was here and figured he just needed the message to become even more extreme before he would be willing to let go.We are talking about a guy who said she is a snake and then gets back with her anyway,thinking,or wishing hopelessly,that it will now be different.Snakes don't seem to change either.Reminds me of an old Al Greene song "you knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in".
And even the worst of these girls have good sides of things that can draw sympathy.Some seem to get it together for awhile.Some live in such bad cercumstances we can tend to want to excuse bad behavior.
Common common story.I have heard many versions of it.
Another situation is where the girls is basically a good person but the relationship is lacking,usally no real love on her part.This was my situation.I didn't take the time to find out if the girl really loved me or what I could offer.In this situation,lacking real love,minor things can be big things.There is no love to see you through any problems that come up.girls can split because they don't like the weather or the level of affluence they thought they would have is not there.I know some other guys who had basically this same problem.Its not going to work,when they get what they want or even fail to they arte gone.
Another type of guy I have encountered alot is the sort of cynical type who wants to chase the young hotties anyway,girls who don't seem marrige material.He can know this and try to protect himself if different ways,not being likely to marry a girl or get a fiance visa even if he has done it before.Its like I'll take what I can get and I know its only temporary,then I'ii just get another one.Living here can make this much easier to do.I could do it but it just doesn't fit for me.I want a close relationship.these guys( you know who you are) can be the most cynical with the most neghative perspective on the women here.Users finding users,thinking there all users.
I know LOTS of guys with VERY successfull marriages,who will tell you their wife is as good as gold.You don't hear too much from them here.
dave from Memphis,now living in Las Vegas for instance.I know he reads here sometimes but rarely posts.What a super wife he has.He is also very funny,has a deep southern accent,says as soon as his wife learns english she is going to teach him.In my California circle of friends its 6 so far successfull marriges and 2 divorces,mine being one.A totally different perspective than you would get here or by talking to guys who play with the bad girls.They see all bad girls, cause thats who they are playing with.
I want to tell you about my girl,but I will make that a different post,this one is getting too long.
Call me nieave and a pollyanna,but I still believe success is not only possible but almost assured if you avoid the problems girls.That of course is easier said and done.

Pete

[colgre]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Good post Pete. It is invigorating to hear of some success stories now and then. While the unsuccessful stories are extremely valuable lessons to learn, they sometimes get me depressed about the whole concept. A guy has really got to believe that this is going to work to keep spending the enormous amounts of time, money and energy to keep going at this. Thanks for the boost!

[Gary Bala]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Please allow me to add a few additional supportive comments.
Andy and Pete E. are past clients.  

I have assisted dozens of couples in the visa process
throughout the country and over the years (a US gentleman
and a Latina, most from Colombia but also Peru, Brazil,
Mexico, Honduras, DR and other locations).

Many, many of them are successful marriages. The
marriage failures (and ladies who simply leave with a visa)
are a small minority and fall far below domestic divorce rates
which are now reportedly approaching 60%. Many couples
met through friends or on a personal visit by the US gentleman,
but others met initially through a romance tour group social or
agency. (Incidentally, the vast majority of gentlemen
and ladies have been and will continue to be successful
in the visa process.)

It is my belief that for most US gentlemen, successful romance
opportunities in South America for a US gentleman with sincere
intentions and realistic expectations are abundant. Most gentlemen
have opportunities for courtship, dating, engagement and marriage
with ladies who are much younger, prettier and with sweeter disposition
than what might be available for them back home. Most sincere Latinas
are simply looking for what Latins call "quimica" with a true gentleman-
romantic, loyal and thoughtful. By culture and disposition, the Colombian lady
and Latinas in general, the sincere ones, are pre-disposed to marry for love,
marry for life, and focused on the man and her family as the center of her life.

Naturally, success requires more than opportunity. Factors such the
lady's willingness and ability to adapt to the US and learn our
language is important. The same for the gentleman, and his willingness
and ability to learn her language, and about her culture, music, dance,
food, family, and so on. People's family background and history are
important indicators of their characters. Age differences must also
be considered. And "compatibility" such as common interests, goals,
hobbies, and values is vital. A reliable way to communicate and resolve
inevitable problems is equally important. So are similar expectations about
what each expects from the future marriage.

Of course, over time, people can and do change, such as their perceptions,
attitudes and expectations. Hopefully, what wouldn't change is a couple's
love for each other. In Latina culture, there is a concept of "growing into love"
over time, contrasted with our American notion of  "falling into love" instantly.
Nothing good in life is easy and any marriage is hard work, but a couple
who truly grow into love will find a way to stay together and committed.

Good luck to all.

[zack]

... in response to Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by Gary Bala on Apr 7, 2004

Thanks again Gary. Your information is invaluable and you have the experience to back it up.

American-Colombain marriages are too new an endeavor to compare fairly with the success rates of American marriages, which is down to 40%. In time, it would be interesting to compare the success rates of each. Based on your experinece, so far, the Latina marriages are winning by a landslide. That is encouraging to know.

Zack

[Brazilophile]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Pete,

I want to compliment you on the posts you have been making in this thread about Kiltboy's debacle with his soon to be ex-wife.  You have consistently given sound and well-reasoned advice supported by solid evidence.  

Your posts have confirmed much of what I believe about our search but I have learned from most of your posts as well.  You have raised the quality of this list over the past few days.  Keep it up!

[Kiltboy1]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Good points as well. That is why i read this board. Not for the venom, but for the different views .

[Locii]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

While I agree with much of your sentiment, I generally disagree with your summary conclusion(s).  For starters, though, I don't know where you come up with 'good girl' versus  'problem girl'.

Probably every single one of us, in most cases multiple times, went from having a relationship with a 'good girl' to a (well the opposite of good is evil) girl.  What changed?  Did she?  Probably.  Did you?  Probably.  Did your perception?  Probably.  Did her perception? Probably.  Did someone get too fat?  Probably.  Skinny?  Probably.  Old?  Probably...etc, etc.

What I am getting at is that you make a general assumption that people do not change and evolve (how many people do you know get cranky and cynical and less patient as they get older for starters).  I find the opposite.  Through trial and tribulation, I find that I never listen to what people say; rather what they do not say.  Most people are trying to fool you by telling you what they think you want to hear.  You can't avoid that.  

As a consequence, I may very well never marry again.  I have a very difficult time with the concept that they seem to like me today yet I personally guarantee they won't in X days, to say nothing of X years.  And then they may again.  Why else would my exwife want me back?  Would she be right this time?  For awhile maybe.  People don't know themselves.  20-something year old girls sure as hell don't.  So are you looking for someone who is mature and 'knows herself' or is 'really really good looking'...two totally unrelated criteria.

The essence of what I disagree with is that your post sounds like an Oprah segment:  "How to Avoid the Bad Boys".  It sounds just dandy, but is generally inapplicable in real life.  If I were wrong, Oprah would have run one "How to Avoid the Bad Boys" segment 20 years ago and not regurgitate it twice a week for eternity and get rich doing it.

The true nature of the problem is that first-world wealth brings spare time, self-reflection about personal fulfillment, and loads of choices that our (and her) parents never had.  The idea that everyone is going to find a 'good girl' and live happily ever after is goofy, though cute.  We don't pick souls to spend time with and marry, we pick members of the opposite sex who have a set of assets (no pun intended) that SEEM to match our expectations.  Our expectations and theirs change over time (precious little time in our culture).  

The reason that there are few success stories is that 1) people who have it going on are too busy with the going on to be here and 2) a 20, 30 something year old girl will go through more personality changes than a male 10 to 20+ years older than her.  How does a 20,30 year old handle that?....its difficult to be honest at times...so you get dramatic, weird, sometimes volatile behavior where they seem to be different people at different times as they come to grips with their own lives.

There is nothing new here.  It isn't about good or bad people.  If anything its about people and their limitations.

Ciao

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by Locii on Apr 7, 2004

I am one of the more optomistic and positive of posters here,but in Colombia there really are "trouble girls " and  "good girls ".
While your success with the good girl is not assured and there may be problems both parties in the relationship have to work on,your failure with the trouble girl is almost assured.I'm not talking about being a little spolied or a little irresponsible or even telling an occasional lie.I'm talking about girls who are so deceptive manipulative and  dishonest they are not likely to ever be in a successfull relationship with anyone.I have heard a number of stories  recently invcolving this kind of girl.Once their behavior becomes evident you should avoid them like the plauge.
Even the trouble girls can ellicit sympathy because of perhaps the very difficult life they have had.But if you think they are going to change you are just bitting off more trouble.
There might be sort of a gray area between the trfouble girls and the good girls.Er onn the safe side and hold out for the girls definetly on the good side of the spectrum.I would say just about any deceptive or dishonest bavior should cause a guy to look elsewhere.Why buy trouble when there are girls who can be found that will give you none?
I have said in the past my ex wife was one of the good girls.Some of my friends take exception to this because of the way she treated me.But even her being a good girl was not enough.The other thing I needed to know was that she loved me,and she did not,although I will give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her when says she thought it could develop in to love.
So I agree with alot of what you say that relationship is a 2 way thing and usually its not appropriate to see one person as the good person and one as the bad person.But some of the trouble girls are the bad person right out of the gate.
But - - the US legal system doesn't like to assign blame  in a divorce so it probably makes no difference how bad her behavior.If you kept her around long enough for her to get benefits she will get them.
If you don't think there is such a thing as a trouble girl you might avoid Cali,you could find out a little late its true.

Pete

[DOMINGUIN]

... in response to Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by Locii on Apr 7, 2004


Very thoughtfully written. "good girls" and problem girls are all vewed form our own perspectives as men/ What might be a Latina with problems to me might be a hottie to someone else.  

I've only been to SA once, Colombia last summer and I am going back this summer. I found a beautiful woman who I felt very strongly about, cmae back thinking i was in love and over the next 90 days had red flags come up in our emails and conversations., but about her family sitaution, and her I went back to cartegena in October for a week to visit, be with her and meet her family, not very optismistic that we could make it work, and it didn't  I do agree that it does a lot of time and energy, but as to money, but I think finding a latina is incredibly cost effective. I had 49 introductions to women last summer in a month in Bogota and Cartagena using agencies and I spent just about a thousand in agency fees and intros.  I can't imagine meeting that many  women in the US in a month for that little money.  And if any man has to save for months for a plane ticket or watch every peso when he is there, then maybe its not the right way for them to find a woman.  

Dominguin

[jim c]

... in response to Re: Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by DOMINGUIN on Apr 8, 2004

Bravo Dom
There are certainly those here that cannot afford the time or money to have a wife here or anywhere else. The benefit of a latina is often her beauty and accessability, but personal responsibility of looking before you leap is still there.jimc

[Hamlet]

... in response to Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by Locii on Apr 7, 2004

A brilliant post, thanks.

Hamlet

[Kiltboy1]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Pete is correct

I played with a snake and got bitten.

You go into the woods and there are always snakes present, but that does not mean you will encounter one every time.

I believe there are many good woman in colombia and cali as well. I made a bad choice but i also met many woman that i found to be sincere as well.

Next time , i wll wear better boots before i venture back into the forest

[Cali James]

... in response to A diiferent perspective, posted by Pete E on Apr 7, 2004

Your absolutely right Pete!!  It's also funny you mentioned Dave's wife.  I only had three close friends in Cali who I totally trusted and Dave's wife was one of them.  I'm really happy for the both of them and if you're reading this Dave, my wife and I need to plan a trip to Vegas before it gets too hot.  We should talk soon....

[DaveyRich1]

... in response to Re: A diiferent perspective, posted by Cali James on Apr 7, 2004

James'
Good to see you on the board again.I me Pete E in Cali.Great guy,great house,great girlfriend. Zuli ask me every week if I have talked to you. Pleas give her a call. You are always welcome at our home in vegas. If not for you I would have never met Zuli.
                         Call Us,
                               Dave

[Craig]

... in response to Cali James, posted by DaveyRich1 on Apr 7, 2004

[This message has been edited by Craig]

Hey Cali Bill in the house!