length of courtship

[chevy]

Here is some advice I got from a colombian woman I know living here
in Philadelphia. She says if you take too long to marry them they will
decide you do not love them. From the time you first meet to marriage should be no more than one year. Even if she never sees the USA first to see what she is getting into.
 I always thought slow and steady. She is saying if you snooze you lose.

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to length of courtship, posted by chevy on Dec 14, 2002

What a coincidence.  I was thinking about posting this subject today.

Another poster has been very critical of men who rush into marriage and fail.  Some could say I fall into that category and maybe they are right.  I think my problem was ignoring red flags.  There were plenty before I married the first Colombiana.

I see other men (including that poster) who spend years going to Colombia, courting women, maybe even living with one, then breaking it off to return and look for another.  Are they really "looking for a wife" or are they just long-distance players?  Will they ever pull the trigger?  If they don't then they can never fail, and they can keep taking cheap shots at those of us who sincerely love the woman and take the risk of marrying her.

I've done this twice.  Both times I made two trips and spent time with the same woman on both trips.  I proposed on the second trip.  I petitioned for a K1.  I think marrying them there is unwise.

Time from meeting them to arriving in the US was about 5 to 8 months.  We then married almost 3 months later.  That's about 8 to 11 months total time.

Until you arrive in Colombia they don't take you seriously.  Until they arrive in the US they doubt if you are going to go through with it.  For most of these women the odds are very low that they will ever marry a foreigner.

The women we are choosing are generally very attractive women.  If you wait too long they may well meet someone else locally or from another country.  Until they arrive here they have those doubts.

Steve

[jim c]

... in response to Re: length of courtship, posted by DallasSteve2 on Dec 14, 2002

Dear Steve
    Seeing that my experiences and attitude fits the profile of your post. I will respond to you directly as in the past.
   I was in love with a calena and lived with her in Cali. It ended not because I didn't care about her. I still think about her every day.
      I was a reverse K1.  I rented my home, placed my furniture in storage, hired some one to run my business affairs and moved to Cali. I had no language skills and relied totally on my novia for everything, BIG MISTAKE, colombian women are accustomed to macho men. Now she had two children to care for on a daily basis. I lost her respect and became a burden. Add to this, a spoiled jealous daughter and the handwriting is on the wall.    I broke off the relationship after my pride would not let me swallow the verbal abuse any longer.
  I continue to go to the agencies, hoping to find a woman that has kinder qualities with the appearance that I like. Meanwhile, the women have ranged from engineers to school teachers. From 30 to 45.  I even squired one of the most famous and beautiful sharks in the agencies. It was fun, she had other americans sending her money. She looked like Angelina Jolie only her body was better. I enjoyed her company and she was a great guide and translator. The difference was that I knew what she was and she was fairly honest with me. She eventually married an american.
  There are women in the agencies that will marry anyone to get out of Colombia, but most are just like the men, looking for some one to love them and take care of them. They want to change their life and have a father for their children in a stable country where they have peace and a future.
    If you think some one can love you without knowing you or communicating with you, understand that she is thinking the same thing.   Marriage in this scenario is only the beginning of a relationship that may or may not work. Remember that you married her without knowing her.  Too many men expect too much too fast and when love doesn't develop rapidly it is the girls fault. If there are reasons that make you unsuccessful with AWs the idea is to change yourself when given the opportunity.  

   To quote you “I would say waiting more than a year to marry these girls is an excellent formula for never getting married. These girls get left on the vine by enough foreigners that they get skeptical. If you're not moving somewhat rapidly they're going to think you're just playing them. And remember if you are interested in them they are probably attractive enough that Colombian men are chasing them, too, along with the foreign men that are coming into the agency every week”  
   
    This sounds to me like a desire for possession not love for a person, forget the time line. If you feel someone can take her from you, someone eventually will. If she leaves you out of impatience you were never the one. Marriage doesn’t guarantee love. Its a social and financial contract.  I would rather be alone, than be with someone who did not love me. Having women for friends and lovers can lead to finding the love of your life. I choose to wait till I find the right person.  Rather than the desperation of buying and possessing a female body, on the basis of her looks and her level of desperation, I feel that my consistent criticism of this childish search for body’s verses persons who love us is warranted.  
   I tried the agency fantasy of the whirlwind relationship and got bit. I still like latinas but not just for their looks.  JIM C

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by jim c on Dec 16, 2002

Jim

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

What you say makes sense and I think it would work well, if someone can live in the lady's city.  Most of us cannot.  We are tied to the US by financial and family ties.  We have to make a compromise and select a mate having spent less "face time" with her.  It may well be a less successful formula, but our options are limited.

I still think that if a man cannot live in her city and he takes more than a year to bring the woman to the US, he stands a good chance of losing her.  Maybe not to another guy as much as to her doubts that he is sincere.  Furthermore, at my age I didn't like the idea of waiting more than a year before I begin a life together with her.  How many more good years do I have?  No one knows.

My one point of disagreement would be on your insinuation that because a man does not wait longer he is only after her "body".  Maybe the men who never seem to pull the trigger are only after their body.  Why buy the cow if the milk is free?  

Furthermore, if the body didn't matter to you there are plenty of lonely women here over 40.  But I think you wrote that over 40 is not your cup of tea.  Me neither.  I've been to Colombia.  I can never go back.

Anyway, I gotta admire a guy who lives in Key West and wants to retire to Cali.  That's the life!

Steve

[lswote]

... in response to Re: length of courtship, posted by DallasSteve2 on Dec 14, 2002

I am curious what your reasons are for saying you shouldn't marry a woman in Colombia.  I have heard you are more on the hook for a women financially with the US government if you marry outside the US and then bring your her in, but for me that is a minor consideration.  And I know a K-1 visa affords you the opportunity to live with a woman, but again, not a big consideration for me as I am not a strong believer in living together.

My fiancee's family is here in Bogota and very important to her.  I on the other hand have no living relatives anymore and because of having moved to different states 3 times in the last 4 years, I don't even have any friends other than 1 close friend who if flying down to Colombia for the wedding.

My feeling is weddings are much more for women than men and if a woman is happier with a wedding where her friends and family can attend, why would you have it somewhere else?

Other than the reasons I mentioned, can you tell why you think one shouldn't marry a woman in Colombia?

[DallasSteve2]

... in response to Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by lswote on Dec 15, 2002

My reasons for not wanting to marry in Colombia are the following:

1 - I want her to have a chance to spend more time with me and decide if she really wants to marry me.  In my cases I could only spend about 10 or 15 days with them before we married, if I married her there.  I think a woman needs more time than that to get to know me and my lifestyle.

2 - I want her to spend time here in the US and decide if she really wants to live here.

3 - I want her to spend time away from her family, friends and country and decide if she really can tolerate that.  My current wife is homesick and wants me to return to Cali, but I would not consider that for at least 5 or 10 years.

4 - I want to have more time with her to be sure she is really sincere about wanting me.

5 - If things don't work out I don't want to have to worry about the legalities of terminating a marriage made in Colombia.

6 - I don't want to make things quite so easy for a green-card shark.  Many will move on to an easier mark without the K1 condition that I impose.  However, my first Colombiana was a green-card shark and at first she rejected my condition.  Then a month later she called me back.  Second thoughts, I guess.  Her gamble paid off, for her.

7 - From what I've heard it's more expensive to get married in Colombia.

But you raise some valid reasons for marrying her in her country as well.  My feeling is that I'm taking some very heavy risks in this.  If she loves me she can take a few risks as well.

Steve

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by DallasSteve2 on Dec 15, 2002

Regarding #2 I wonder how many colombianas willingly and voluntarily go home for good never to return to the US again. My guess is maybe two since 1965.

[mudd]

... in response to Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by lswote on Dec 15, 2002

you can bring her on a K1, live together(without sex, and yes, its possible) for three months, see how she adjusts to the USA and see if her personality is the same in the USA, as to when she was in Colombia. If she is the same, and not just putting up an act, so you will marry her, then get married. File an Advance Parole, and fly back to Colombia, and get married there for her family. That’s my plan anyways and she agreed to it without question. In my opinion, and its just my opinion, you have no idea what she will be like, once she is here. It isn’t too hard to fool some American for five or six days at a time when he is visiting, espically when he has his "lust goggles" on. Think about it, how well could you actually know a girl who you only seen on short trips, and would be on her best behavior. One thing to remember, and as you say, it may not matter to you, but it might to a lot of men, me included. if you marry in Colombia, and once she is here, as little as two weeks, she can file for divorce, and the INS will not deport her, and she is pretty much here for good, and you will still have to declare her as a financial dependant, because she is your ex wife. if she uses government assistance for school, spousal support, child care, social security benefits, pretty much anything, you get the bill, and if for some reason, you want to go through that mess again, and marry another girl from any foreign country, you still have to list the ex wife as a financial dependant. I may be well off, but im not rich. It took me a long time to get where I am, and I don’t want to lose part of it, and start over. Also check the divorce laws in your state, each is different.

[wendell]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by mudd on Dec 15, 2002

I pretty much agree with what you are saying except that I dont know of any state that allows for a new resident to file for divorce after two weeks of residency. I would like to know about the support documents that you sign.  I have asked this question before but has anyone ever had to cough up any money to Uncle Sam because their ex used government assistance?  I have never heard anyone say that they have.

You are right about the INS not deporting these women after a divorce except when they are forced to do so by a court order. That is one of the advantages to getting married in Colombia.  As I have posted before I know about 12 marriages that ended quickly. About two months max. If the woman is a Green card shark, she is going to dash quickly. After she leaves you, quickly file for an annulment because of marriage fraud. You dont know where she is at.  Most times you win by default because she doesnt show up. Then you present the court order to the INS that states that your ex committed marriage fraud to obtain a visa and they will begin deportation procedures. They are obligated by law to do this because they entered the US fraudulently because you have a court that says so.

I have 3 friends that did exactly this.  In two of the cases the women didnt show up and in the third , it was a slam dunk. The INS found the first two women, although it took them almost a year and issued deportation hearings. Two of the women went home on their own and the third was actually deported. There is a huge, huge Colombian connection here in Miami.  They all end up here. They provide them with room, board, and education. And legal advice. It is incredible.

It is going to be harder to prove marital fraud if she has been living with you a few months before you are married.

[mudd]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by wendell on Dec 15, 2002


The states have no jurisdiction over the marriage from a residency point, just the civil part of it. The state will decide if spousal support, child support ECT will be assigned. As for the support documents, they are different from the K1 to the Spousal Visa. The Spousal visa support document is stronger and if the government wants to use it, they will. The K1 is not very strong, and as to my knowledge, has not been used on anyone, where the other has.
Here is the other part where it gets dirty. All she has to do is state that she entered into the marriage with good intentions, and for whatever reason, it didn’t work out. Her husband lied to her about where he lived, what he did for work, how much money he has and made ECT. She can also claim abuse, and I hate to bring that subject up, because its is a nasty subject. if she claims physical or mental abuse, her case file goes directly to the INS office in Vermont, where they look at it, and decide if she should stay in the country, and from a lawyer who works for the INS told me, unless their is a lot of proof that she is lieing big time, they will grant her to stay. They also take no information or proof from the husband. She also told me that it takes them usually two or three years for each case, because their are so many of them.
On the other side of the coin, who wants to take a change and go through the headache, heartache and financial drain of finding out she used you to get into the USA. Sorry, but I don’t want my family and friend telling me "I told you so stupid" better safe than sorry.

[wendell]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by mudd on Dec 15, 2002

Good information.  You are completely correct when you state about her intentions at the time of the marriage. If she married you in good faith she can probably stay.

Another thing is that she can file immediately after the divorce to make her conditional status permanent.  She doesnt have to wait for that 90 day window before the 2 year period expires.  That is only if you are still married.

[wizard]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by wendell on Dec 15, 2002

wendell,

Of the 12 marriages that went bad so quickly, can you fill us in on the nature of these relationships... Were all of these the "2 trip & pop the question" marriages??? If so, just another axiom for taking your time and learning each other...

I would think a green card shark would not be patient enough to endure the rigors of a prolonged engagement...

wizard

[wendell]

... in response to 12 marriages gone bad???, posted by wizard on Dec 15, 2002

I completely agree with you that a shark wouldnt put up with a long term engagement. These were all men that I met personally or talked with on the phone. I met a couple of the women, too.  They were all short term engagement...less than 6 months. Yes, most were 2-3 trips down. Age gaps in most of them but about 4 were fairly close in age..[8 years].

There is only one that I would classify as a shark.  I know her personally and I was married in her house.  She is the only one of the 12 that didnt come on a spousal.  She came on a fiance visa and left THREE days later and ended up in Miami. It was definately planned on her part.

It is all anecedotal on my part.  Most of them came here ill prepared.  They really dont know what they are getting into.  Everything is different. Culture, language, food, pace of life.  They are homesick.  And of course, the Calenas hate the weather, which is a big factor IMO.

A little bit more on one of the "dirty dozen".  The guy was 49 and his wife was around 37.  She had a 14 year old son who came with them to Ohio. He was an engineer. My ex and I spent a couple of days with them in  Cali after the wedding. They met 4 months previous to the wedding.  Married on the second trip..  She came to the US on December 1 and skipped out shortly after christmas. Went to NYC for a short while and ended up in Miami. He filed for annulment and claimed marriage fraud and $30000 in damages for actual monetary outlays.  He won by default. She didnt know that she was going to be deported until the INS agent contacted her in Miami.  They found her through school records for her son. He is not going to collect the money but he claims that he can deduct a certain amount on taxes each year.  Under casualty and theft losses, I suppose.  I am not sure on this aspect of it.  She got her just desserts.  The beauty of it is that she didnt know what was going on with the INS and the Colombian connection couldnt help her.

That is if you want to extract your pound of flesh from the woman.  Personally I think you should just move on and forget about the revenge aspect.

[wizard]

... in response to Re: 12 marriages gone bad???, posted by wendell on Dec 15, 2002

reasoning for not jumping the gun and letting your hormones take control... I would be more concerned about the emotional investment in a relationship that was doomed to failure...

[Ken2]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: length of courtship, posted by mudd on Dec 15, 2002

Don't forget to mention she will be considered illegal and cannot re-marry an american to keep her status.