My buddy

[HappyInBrazil]

... in response to Re: Hmm...., posted by Patrick on Sep 18, 2002

So your wife doesn't care about and wouldn't lift a finger to help her family?  

Also, did you marry your wife because of her age?  I'm sure this guy (the original person in question) didn't say he wanted to marry her because she was 19.  Also, I think in this case and in ALL cases people need to take a strong reality check before they get married.  That's the real issue.

[Patrick]

... in response to Wow, that's a little sad., posted by HappyInBrazil on Sep 18, 2002

My wife's family consists of all college educated professionals.  One doctor, two professors, one chemical engineer, and my wife, the accountant.  None of them need support, nor would they accept it.  When her father was dying, we had to insist that we be allowed to buy him a recliner to rest in.  Her father and mother didn't want us to buy it.

The way I see it, the man who's 19 year-old girlfriend wants to support her family will end up being the one who provides the support rather than the girl.  Then he moves the brother up to live with them.  If he's prepared to support his wife as well as her family long term, then he's going in with his eyes open.  If he assumes that it will be his wife providing the support for them, then I think he's being unrealistic.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Wow, that's a little sad., posted by Patrick on Sep 18, 2002

You have described two important characteristics of your own circumstances which strike me as being highly atypical of americano/colombiana marriages.

1. You are almost the same age.
2. All of her family are professionals and financially independant and one assumes living in one of the upper strata.

Regarding number two (and this is not directed at anyone in particular) I think it is safe to say that the overwhelming majority of girls one will meet either at the agencies or through correspondance are not living in the economic upper crust. Most like my own novia live ok if they're employed but always pretty close to the edge buying something like a pair of running shoes for example on a payment plan. My novia's older sister has two kids and is out of work at the moment. My novia and her mother spend some Sundays making up huge batches of tamales which they sell to raise money for the out of work sister. These people HELP each other. If one doesn't have the others provide. Toca. It's their culture and yes it's different than ours. Another difference, the man in a relationship ALWAYS has the final say and what goes with that; the man also ALWAYS pays. As above, it's their culture. I watched a pair of married (at least each couple had a kid)couples one evening at Chipichapi. That guys sat on a bench deep in conversation. The girls would stroll off for a while then return and one asked her husband for money then off they went again maybe for an ice cream. This was repeated at least three or four times as I watched and each time the husband cheerfully handed over more pesos never once showing signs of being perturbed. Just a normal evening with everything going according to custom. My point is that what might seem like exagerated requests in our culture of liberated women who (supposedly) pick up their half the check, is in Colombia well within the bounds of established etiquette. I think it is pea-brained for a high earning middle/upper class gringo to go there looking for a latina streotype living in a lower strata and be outraged when she asks him to help with the less fortunate family members. You can't cherry pick what parts of latin culture you want your latina to come equipped with.

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Re: Wow, that's a little sad., posted by Cali vet on Sep 18, 2002

Maybe times have changed or I was just lucky, but two of the four women I traveled to meet came from middle to upper middle class families.  One from Mexico and one from Colombia (my wife).  Maybe I had better luck because I wasn't chasing the babes with great cleavage.  Or maybe it was just coincidental.  I think character is at least as important as looks in any long term relationship.  I also think I have much more in common with a woman near my own age than I would with one twenty years younger.  I prefer to be a husband rather than a husband/father figure.

The other Colombiana I went to meet came from a poorer family where everyone pitched in, yet there was never any request to help them.  I wouldn't have begrudged them some support, especially since all the family members were working, but if someone already has a house purchase planned for their family along with support for all of them, plus immigrating at least one of them, I think that's a tall order for someone to live up to.  If the guy has the bucks and doesn't mind it, then fine, but I suspect he's assuming the woman will find work and provide the support for her family herself.  I wouldn't count on that happening.  If I were him, I'd assume that he is going to be the one providing the support and that it will be an on-going expense, probably with additional "scooters" and other things needed along the way in addition to the regular support checks.  If he doesn't provide the regular support money, plus money for other items as needed, then I suspect there's going to be some negative reaction from his wife.

Support for hard-working people in a bad situation is one thing, welfare for life to a whole family is another.  From what little description we had, this woman sounds like very high maintenance.  Not uncommon for the young model quality looks type women.  They're usually conditioned to expect it with all the attention they get from men.

My wife's parents were not from the upper class ranks.  Her father was a surveyor and he and his wife both valued education enough to encourage every one of their children to get degrees.  My widowed mother-in-law lives a pretty middle class life because her husband was employed constantly during his career and managed to save money to supplement his pension.  I think a lot of the poorer families are single mother households where the dad skipped out (or died).  Maybe that's part of the reason why the daughters are looking for American husbands.

[Bueller]

... in response to Re: Re: Wow, that's a little sad., posted by Cali vet on Sep 18, 2002

You're missing an important element of Wayne1's story. Her mom is not unable to work; she simply won't work. Her brother...well, he's not a woman, obviously, and he's a slacker. Plus, where does this ethic come from, that he wants a scooter and she doesn't feel like working, so they decide to hit up sis's Gringo boyfriend for cash? No family with class would ask for such a thing.

 In many Latin American families, older parents expect the kids to chip in and help one way or another. Replacing her contribution to the family once she gets married is one thing, but it's not what we're talking about here.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Wow, that's a little sad., posted by Bueller on Sep 18, 2002

I'm not missing it and I'm not making a case for this particular chica about which we know next to nothing. Instead I'm speaking generally to the issue of cultural misunderstanding that affects our relationships with these women. There is no question that many of us go down there with wallets flapping and in my experience a very high percentage of agency visitors try to express their enthusiasm for the girls by buying them lots of shopping mall gifts. Nothing wrong with that, it's just our culture. Well by the third time an agency girl walks around Chipichapi with a new gringo date who wants to buy her more new clothes she's going to gain an insight into North American, U S of A mentality. She will learn that americanos express themselves and win affection buy spending money and lots of it. If she happens to be a real schemer and not very sophisticated it's easy to see how she might extrapolate this to mean the bank is open for business and scooters and houses are in the offing.

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow, that's a little sad..., posted by Cali vet on Sep 18, 2002

Far too many gringos try to impress with their wallets and it makes things worse for us all.

[Cali vet]

... in response to Re: Hmm...., posted by Patrick on Sep 18, 2002

And you are 43, well that explains your incessant tirades against relationships involving more than a couple of years age difference. While most of the women on your addresses site are in their thirties I saw at least one twenty year old. Who is she supposed to marry, do you have some 23 year old clients for her?

Not going to shed any light on your enigmatic "Mck" remark?

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Re: Hmm....and hmm...again, posted by Cali vet on Sep 18, 2002

Seemed like a semi-outrageous story which might get stranger as time goes on (as did Mck's).  I guess everyone else thinks marrying a woman who plans on buying a house for her family, supporting them, and moving the brother up to the States sounds fine?  That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I don't think everyone should marry a woman near their own age.  I just think it's more likely to be successful that way.  I also think the age gap becomes less important for older ladies.  A 35 year old woman for example marrying a 55 year old man is a much better proposition in my mind than a 20 year old woman marrying a 40 year old man.

JimSimon's story is the first failure I've heard of where it wasn't a young woman married to a significantly older man.  Every other one I've either heard about or personally seen has been a woman in her early to mid twenties married to a man in his forties or older.  Perhaps it's just because that's the more typical scenario and there's simply many more marriages with the people in those age groups.

[Wayne1]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Hmm....and hmm...again, posted by Patrick on Sep 18, 2002

Yes this is a true scenario....  You guys gotta trust me by now.....

It is a real friend of mine, and we have spent two entire evenings discussing the risks of this one.

For me it is all about agendas.  Once the girl has let the agenda out of the bag, she can't put it back in no matter how much shmoozing and talking she does.

My friend says he needs to discuss this with her more.  Discussing it doesn't change the agenda.  She may change what she says, but 1 or 2 years down the road after she learns English and gets independent with an INS status change, she is going to be doing whatever she wants.  Getting between her and her family financially is not going to be healthy for any marriage.

She may very well love him, but their are other goals in mind.  I don't fault her for wanting to help her family.  This shows simple and normal compassion for the family.  But it comes down to deciding if you are going to try to build a strong family in California, or bleed off much of the resources to Colombia to a Mother who has no intention of working, and other family members who need support.  It's already started with needing money for the dentist for the young one, and money for the scooter so the brother can get a job and then never does.

It's one thing helping out the family, and it's another taking on the total support of the family down south.  Raising a family in California takes all the resources unless you are filthy rich.

The old scenario of the Man's money being "everybodies" money and the women's money being her money to do what ever she likes with it.

On top of it, she is hot tempered.

I suspect he is going to go ahead and marry her anyway.

Wayne

[Bueller]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Hmm....and hmm...again, posted by Wayne1 on Sep 18, 2002

As you've intuited, this guy is headed for a "seminar". Sometimes it's best to just let others make their own mistakes. If you talk him out of it, he could resent you later thinking about how maybe it could have worked.

  Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to get involved with anyone under 25. And in this case, what kind of job would she be eligible for at 19, especially with no English skills? Nothing of any consequence of all, especially in California.

Furthermore, look at her immaturity of judgement (it comes with being only 19, ya know): her mom *won't* work, and her slacker brother says he can't get a job without a scooter. He asks your friend to buy him one, yet he still won't get a job. Then they're going to invite this doofus up to live with them? No dignified family would ever ask for this sort of help. Your friend needs to wake up and go find himself a woman, not a girl. Latin America is loaded with nice women who are looking for love instead of a sugar daddy.

[papa suave]

... in response to She'll be one of life's lessons, posted by Bueller on Sep 18, 2002

It sounds a little risky to me. IMO if other members of her family are not willing to get off their butts and get jobs, neither will she...After all Colombianas are most influenced by their madres...

[HappyInBrazil]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Hmm....and hmm...again, posted by Wayne1 on Sep 18, 2002

With the remarks about her being hot tempered, and the her money is hers and his money is hers, rather than convincing your friend to not marry her, why not convince him to work on some of the things they will need for a good life together before they get engaged, then married.  Or to sit down and work out with her why it makes sense to make her family dependent on them.

The only thing I can think of that he might be willing to see is how she is likely having LESS respect for her future husband over time and how she might let it slip that she sees him as a cavalo (not sure if my spelling is correct or the word is the same, means horse in Portuguese) rather than a long term husband.  What happens when he turns her down on some request, like buy the scooter for the brother?  If he hasn't found out, he might want to BEFORE marrying.  The fact that you guys are talking is good though.

I doubt this idea would fit reality, but if he got her a job as a stripper, maybe he could bank some cash and collect alimony when they are done.  Outside of that, maybe you can make some small suggestions to him that won't interfere with their marriage, but would make it easier for him to recover his life if it blows up.

[Cali vet]

... in response to It's sarcasm Vet, posted by Patrick on Sep 17, 2002

Mck back in the house? Now that's oblique. I should know this?

Anyway two story houses in Florario, north Cali go for about $12000 for a nice one. Not much for some of these high-rollers and less than a second hand car here in the states.

[bogota vet]

... in response to My buddy, posted by Wayne1 on Sep 17, 2002

19 vs 32 not that much
She must be a calena

You don't tell us enogh about the the gringo, what REALLY are HIS options in life?