Bad experience with A Foreign Affair

[Hamlet]

All,

I was in Costa Rica and I bought six addresses from A Foreign Affair.  They emailed me the "addresses", but several had no street names included and thus they were worthless.  None of them had the complete family name (just one of two).  And there were no phone numbers.

I wrote and complained and I received an outrageous and highly insulting response: that telephone numbers cannot be given out because people like me will call and harass the women at all hours of the day and night forcing them to change their telephone numbers which they cannot afford to do because they are poor.

Believe it or not, I did actually find one of the woman.  I went to her house.  She told me that when she signed up with A Foreign Affair she had given them her telephone number with the understanding they would give it to men.  Also, she said that the company told her only that her photo would be published in a book and never mentioned the internet, and had they mentioned that she would be published online she never would have signed up with them.

I did eventually ask the company to reverse the charge on my credit card.  And as you might imagine they ignored my request.  

Hamlet

[Edge]

... in response to Bad experience with A Foreign Affair, posted by Hamlet on May 1, 2002

What I cannot understand is why they would not include the address if they were not going to include a phone number.  How are you supposed to contact someone with only an incomplete name and no address or phone number??  I recall what you went through to reach the one you eventually met.  I believe you traveled by bus 8 hours to the town and then had to continue asking people if they knew where this particular woman lived until you tracked her down..

I think if a woman wants her phone number listed then it should be listed and if not, then do not publish it.. But AFA needs to give you more information than the name and perhaps the town, which is apparently what they did to Hamlet.

[Patrick]

... in response to Bad experience with A Foreign Affair, posted by Hamlet on May 1, 2002

We don't give out phone numbers in the site I run either, and it's precisely for the reasons AFA stated.   Saying they don't want people like you to call her is obviously quite rude, but are you sure you're not mis-intepreting their response when they really said something like "We don't give out the phone numbers because there are some unsavory characters out there who might call them at 3:00AM to ask them how they are in bed" ?  There really are some guys like that.  Not a lot, but they exist and just like AFA, we don't want the ladies exposed to that potential abuse either.

No comment on the rest, but there could easily be some mis-understanding between the lady and AFA.  I don't think I've seen any other complaints about them and they're a pretty big player in this business, so they must have lots of customers.

[yc]

... in response to Defending my competition?, posted by Patrick on May 1, 2002

Patrick,

I have never dealt with AFA, but I do know they are a big player.  However if AFA is a marriage agency and their business is to bring people togather, how is that suppose to be done?  Not everyone is into taking expensive tours.  I certainly am not.  To me it just seems like the least serious way to approuch meeting someone I want to be my wife.  I am not knocking the tour route.  There is nothing wrong it.  The guy purchased info which he expected to be valid.  Hamlet claims that most of the contact info he got is invalid... the addresses are incomplete and no phones numbers are provided.  So I ask again, how was he suppose to make contact with the ladies he selected?  Go on one of AFA tours and hope he meets the ladies he was interested in person.

I guess what makes something wrong is the person real intent... is he/she looking to meet someone for a serious relationship or for something more dark and perverse.  A business stating that they will sell contact info(in this case the ladies contact info) and the info they provided is bad should be considered fruadulent if they are unwilling to correct the problem.  I understand what you are saying about the protection of clients and I totally agree with you.  However, there is two sides here... the lady that provided her info so she can be contacted(in a respectful and appropriate manner) and the guy that is purchasing info and expect the info to be valid.

Patrick, there are ugly people out there with ugly intent.  There is only so much precautions that one can be take.  If it is the MO business intent on protecting the ladies, why not just go the Big Brother method.  Just have all communications(letters, emails and telephone conversations) with the ladies go through their private channels for fltering and monitoring.  Ex. Latin Love-Connection and Cherry-Blossoms are setup to have email communication goes through their system.  That is only and surest way to cover all grounds... the guy makes contact with the ladies and the ladies are contacted in an appropriate manner.

In any case, if a customer is not satisfied with whatever, most businesses do give a refund.

yc

[Patrick]

... in response to Re: Defending my competition?, posted by yc on May 1, 2002

I just visited their site and they have an address order form, not a contact information order form.  I would assume address means mailing address and there's nothing mentioned about telephone numbers.

I wonder if some of the addresses without street names are post office boxes.  If so, then they would serve their intended purpose- delivery of a letter.  Perhaps some others have a barrio name and street, but no number.  Again, a letter could be delivered, but someone who's intention is to buy an address they can drive to would be disapointed.  I don't think AFA's intention is to provide contact information for a walkup visit, but rather to enable the men to write letters to the ladies.  Without seeing the addresses and emails exchanged with them, there's not much more I could comment on.

As for the bad apples.  They do exist, and I've seen some ladies ask for their ads to be cancelled because they were contacted by one of them.  Getting a vulgar letter is one thing, but being woken up at 3:00AM in your home by one of these guys is another.

Without the ladies, there's no paying male clients, so they are just as important to any agency from a business perspective as the men are.  Actually, maybe more.  60% of our expenses last year were for advertizing to attract the ladies, but nothing other than the web hosting fees and a few banner ads (which are free since we own two of the advertising venues) for attracting the men.

I never liked email forwarding myself.  I think there's too much room for scamming where the agency is writing the responses and charging a forwarding and translation fee per letter.  It's also in their interest to keep themselves in the middle of the couple and some of them prevent the forwarding of addresses, email addresses, and phone numbers.  I think this is a bigger problem with the RUssian agencies than with the Latin ones.  It's great when done right, but it opens up a lot of opportunities to easily cheat.  It's also just one more thing the men can accuse you of scamming them on even if you're doing it honestly.

[Hamlet]

... in response to Re: Re: Defending my competition?, posted by Patrick on May 1, 2002

Patrick,

When I wrote that AFA did not give me addresses with which I could contact the women, that is exactly what I meant.  I did not get a PO box or a barrio.  A letter posted to "Cecilia Rodriguez, Heredia, San Jose, Costa Rica" cannot be delivered to the intended recipient where Heredia is a city in Costa Rica with a population of many thousands of people.  This is an example of some of the addresses I received.

You wondered whether I might have complained about the address inadequacy using impolite or rude language and that the AFA employee was reacting to me, but if you have been reading my posts here for the last two years you probably have some insight into my character and the way I respond to people.  I can assure you my complaint was proper.

You also wondered whether or not the woman I met might have misunderstood when she believed AFA told her she would be advertised only in a magazine and not on the internet.  Well, of that I cannot be sure, because I was not there when these representations were made.  However, I do know that AFA took my money for addresses and then failed to give me addresses and then failed to respond properly when I told them they did not give me addresses and then failed to reverse the charges on my credit card when I finally asked them to do so.  So I consider them untrustworthy.  And I also know that the Tica I spoke of is the one that I wrote about in my Trip Report: Costa Rica who probably has an IQ of 180.  So I consider her memory accurate.  She also told me that AFA told her no men would be given her address but that all letters would be funnelled through the AFA office.  

Hamlet

[Michael B]

... in response to I meant what I wrote, posted by Hamlet on May 1, 2002

I bought one month of the the $99 or $97 or some such price "all the addresses you want" package from them a couple of months ago. I ordered 120+ address. Granted, there are no phone numbers and most have only one apellido, but they sure look like valid mailing addresses to me, not "Maria Lopez, Matamoros, Mexico" but more like "Maria Lopez, Calle 53 #8-7, Colonia Zaragoza, Matamoros, Tamulipas, Mexico".

They sure seem like legit addresses to me. About giving out the phone numbers (and email if she has it), well, I think they should make that the lady's option if she wants to release it or not.

Even though the membership has expired (I only bought it for one month and didn't renew) since then I have received 5 more emails from them. Not one of these says "Aren't you going to renew your membership?", they all say "Yolanda Rodriguez has moved, her new address is ..........".

Too bad I wasted my money, because things are getting pretty serious with somebody I met on a free internet site and it looks like I won't need any of the AFA addresses after all, ha ha.

[Patrick]

... in response to I meant what I wrote, posted by Hamlet on May 1, 2002

I'm not sure that that address you gave wouldn't result in the letter being delivered.  I've seen some small town addresses that looked inadequate, especially in some parts of Honduras.  I thought they were obviously not going to work, but the ladies we sent the applications to responded, so I know they were receiving them.  I definitely agree that the addresses were inadequate for the purpose you wished to use them, i.e. simply driving out to their homes.  But I don't believe they were sold with that intended use in mind.  Some of them are always going to be using post office boxes.  If you had indicated to them before purchasing that you intended to use them to contact the ladies directly and not send letters, and that you were interested only in ladies who's addresses included street names and numbers, then I could definitely understand your discontent.

I do believe you when you say your email to them was not rude.  The only thing in doubt for me now would be that perhaps you mis-intepreted their response to you as indicating that you specifically were the type of guy they were shielding their women from.  Did they state that unambiguously?  Perhaps you could share the email they sent you with the message board.  I'm always a stickler for details in agency complaints to the message boards.  Probably because I deal with those type complaints myself and know they're often based on misperceptions or unrealistic expectations.  I myself would not expect to be able to find all the ladies homes based on their mailing addresses.  Perhaps many of the clients of agencies would have the same expectations that you do, but I've seen thousands of addresses and would expect a percentage of them to be unreachable except through mail.

The one thing I would say is that their reply to you, if it really was a rude as you indicate, was something that others might consider if they were thinking of using AFA.  But without actually seeing it, I won't comment on it.  I hope you'll share it with the board and post the content of that email (with addresses removed of course).

[pastilla100]

... in response to Defending my competition?, posted by Patrick on May 1, 2002

This excuse is donkey doo doo and Hamlet has a good sniffer.  I recently ordered addresses from Latin Euro (Brazil Girls) and got phone numbers.  No problemo.  I have talked to Foreign Affairs a few times, and they seemed polite enough and responsive, but I don't think having a lot of customers is any evidence of integrity.  Especially in the marriage agency business.  This hits home for me because I did business with a Ed Beckwith from Cali once much to my regret.  I recall that when I asked him for references, he said the same thing, that is, he doesn't give references because they are called at all hours in the night and he wants to protect his clients.  I fell for that one and lost some dinero.  When you smell donkey doo doo -- RUN.

[El Diablo]

... in response to Donkey Doo Doo, posted by pastilla100 on May 1, 2002

With all due respect, I think you are way way way off base.  It may be donkey doo to you but there are some very legitimate reasons not to give out phone numbers.  You need to remember that there are two sides to this equation, it's not just the guy's interest here but the interest of the women that need to be considered also.  

You may not be aware of it but there are a lot of creeps and pervs who buy the addresses.  A friend of mine told me that she has received letters from guys who have sent nude photos of themselves and that she has even received some obscene phone calls.    There's a sleezy element that creeps into this business at times and from this you get a whole group of weirdos.  

Another factor to consider is that most women don't want a hundred guys calling their house at all hours of the day.  Many of these girls don't tell everyone in the family about their involvement in this either and after a few calls dad begins to wonder what his little girl is involved in.  I've never met a woman who would gladly give out her phone number when she understands that there are pervs out there buying addresses.

Anyway ask yourself this, would you give your telephone number out to total strangers if you knew some would be pervs and calling at all hours.

El Diablo

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Telephone numbers...., posted by El Diablo on May 1, 2002

Hamlet has a valid point.

If you don't give phone numbers... and you don't give addresses... and you don't even give FULL names...

What have you given???

He has a valid beef...

[pastilla100]

... in response to Telephone numbers...., posted by El Diablo on May 1, 2002


I have to admit that your argument is pretty persuasive.  But then, I have persuaded myself of a lot of things in the past that look good on paper but turn out to not represent reality.  So, now I just test reality and try it.  If it doesn't work, I try something else.  In this case, if you want phone numbers, you can go to Brazil girls since Foreign Affairs doesn't give them out.  It's as simple as that.  As for the perverts, I don't know how effective their obscene phone calls will be since they speak English and their "victims" speak Portuguese.   I suppose an ambitious pervert could buy a "How to talk DIrty Portuguese" Book at B Daltons.  But, then he has to figure out how to pronounce the words and Portuguese pronunciation is much more difficult than the relatively pure and simple Spanish.  I don't know if perverts have that kind of patience.  And if he manages to correctly pronounce one of these words to a fiery  Brasileira, he may wish he never tried.        

[Patrick]

... in response to Donkey Doo Doo, posted by pastilla100 on May 1, 2002

My comment about them being big wasn't meant to imply that that makes them good.  It does however mean that they obviously have a lot of clients.  And when someone has lots of clients, there's generally lots of compliants, which doesn't seem to be the case with AFA from my experience.

It would be nice if Hamlet could post the response they sent him.  I find it quite outrageous that an agency, especially one that big, would be insulting clients unless he was very offensive in his email to them first.  That's just not good business and these guys are one of the biggest on the internet.  Doesn't make sense to me.

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: Donkey Doo Doo, posted by Patrick on May 1, 2002

What is Patrick's website?

[Darkstar]

... in response to Patrick's website, posted by bogota vet on May 1, 2002

You're on one of them.

Tim.