Attempt on Presidential Candidate

[Cali vet]

It appears that the FARC tried to assasinate Alvaro Uribe, the likely next president of Colombia this afternoon in the market area of Barranquilla. He was d@mned lucky. They set off a bomb at a bridge his caravan crossed then opened fire on his armored Land Cruiser and shot it up pretty good but his body guards got him out and to safety. Unoficially they're saying four died with another five in very bad shape. To do this in the middle of B/quilla is incredable! Get Fujimori in there!

[Pete E]

... in response to Attempt on Presidential Candidate, posted by Cali vet on Apr 14, 2002

To wake up Colombia?Are they ever going to get up the guts to face this issue?Hopefully a p--sed off Uribe will wipe their stupid butts off the face of the earth.And that 20,000 or 30,000 number for the FARC will drop real fast if the government really goes after them 100%.Alot of people will be back to their day jobs real fast.FARC?I don't know nothing about no FARC.You must be thinking of someone else.
The US,with our stupid drug policies,is putting money in these peoples hands.A bunch of banditos is one thing,a bunch of banditos with billions of dollars is another.
We need to help Colombia if for no other reason than to make amends for the harm we have caused them.And there are lots of other reasons.

Pete

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: What the hell does it take, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2002

All the Colombian people with money have fled to Florida and NY or CA, along with hiding all their money in various
means.
I guess they "love their country so much" they'll support the cause from abroad !!

Don't you the Colombian problem is a US problem , we need to send more US tax dollars down thier to help the poor Colombians still stuck.  NOT !!!!!!!!!!

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: What the hell does it take, posted by bogota vet on Apr 15, 2002

Its a help you neighbor/fight terrorism deal.We are not talking about alot of money by US spending standards.I wouldn't be a weeks cost of what we did in Afganistan.An it will probably be about  1% of what we are going to spend sending Saddam Housein to meet Allah.
About the rich leaving,I don't blame them.If their government can't protect them its the smart thing to do.Never expect people to make bad personal choices.
The poor can't afford to leave,but they are not at anything like the risk the rich are facing for things like kidnaping.

Pete

[NW Jim]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: What the hell does it take, posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

Let's talk about sacrifice. I don't begrudge a rich man sending his family to safety, but when he gets on the plane with them--that's self-serving cowardice. Patriots are people who sacrifice for the good of the society. Course maybe they know it's a corrupt society not worth fighting for; maybe they think their side will lose?

The poor are at more risk than the rich. Who get's forcibly recruited by the FARC/AUC and drafted by the army. Or due to the lack of stable work joins one side or the other for the money? Who is dying in combat on both sides? Whose villages are getting levelled with propane canisters?

If the US intervenes's will George Bush's nephew be going into action? Will Al Gore's son? If it goes real bad, ala Vietnam, who is going to be drafted to serve?, kids from Harvard and UC?

I understand the frustration of Pete and other posters, but we need to remember that we have a different cultural outlook. Americans tend to be results oriented pragmatists; other cultures worship the man with a gun and a noble but futile cause, who promises a quick fix.  

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: What the hell does it take, posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

You missed my point, the Colombian rich are the ones mostly to blame, the rich never really have paid the price of setting up a just and fair social system.  I agree the the US social system is not ideal but it is a big improvement on Colombia.

A Class Society, well now the party is over.

The rich will return after others have cleaned it up with their own blood and sweat.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: What the hell does it ta..., posted by bogota vet on Apr 15, 2002

Yes,its easy to forget there is such a class system and the rich control so much.It does make the dead end approach of communism appealing to the poor.I think this will change over time as acomplishment comes to mean more than ownership of land.I prefer the slow but steady approach to reform.No 80 year trips in the wrong direction like Russia,or 42 years like Cuba.At least Russia saw the light.Stalin,their Castro checked out early thankfully.
Most of the world in the past and still alot of it live with this heiarchy type social system.The US and western europe seem to be the exceptions but definetly where things are headed.
Colombia still needs our help,and its worth the cost to have healthy neighbors.Its not only the right thing to do its in our own best interest.We are the worlds only superpower and the economoic leader by a long shot.We should be very gratefull to be so lucky.I think there is a obligation that comes with that to help other countries help themselves.I'm not talking about bankrupting us.We can afford it.
Now if you want to talk federal budget,ever think about the billions of dollars the US spends to keep food prices up and to try and guarantee success to every farmer,large or small,rich or poor?The cost of food to US citizens is probably many  billions more than if we had a free market.And we could ship so much product abroad if the price was right.Political reality will leave this one un touched.No president wants to kiss off the entire midwest.Bush is in Iowa today and he threw in a line about enthenal from corn as a fuel.That makes no economic sense right now.Political sense is a different issue.

Pete

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: What the hell does it ta..., posted by bogota vet on Apr 15, 2002

Of course being the oportunist I am , I will make sure to rescue a pretty Colombiana from the mess within the coming year!!!

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What the hell does i..., posted by bogota vet on Apr 15, 2002

Just make sure she wants you as much as she wants to be rescued.
White knight to the rescue.We are so lucky.

Pete

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Your timing is excellent, posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

The problem with being self employed is you waste your own time.

Pete

[NW Jim]

... in response to Re: What the hell does it take, posted by Pete E on Apr 14, 2002

We need to think about this from the perspective of the average Colombian.

First, to make a fair comparison the US has seven times the population of Colombia. So it would be equivalent of having 140,000 armed insurgents (well armed and funded) running around this country--not a small number.

Second, this didn't just start recently. This current armed conflict dates back to the middle 60's. It was proceeded by "La Violencia" in the late 1940's to mid 50's which cost the lives of several hundred thousand people. Before that was the civil wars in the 19th century.

Third, even if more violence were the solution--why should the average Colombian shed his blood for the benefit of the elitist upper class? It would be like us fighting for Al Gore because the election was "stolen" from him. If you notice the rich and middle class are leaving for Miami and Spain, they're not sticking around for the fight--let others do the dirty work.

As you point out, the only constructive thing that outsiders can do is take the profit out of the drug trade.

[bogota vet]

... in response to Re: Re: What the hell does it take. Pers..., posted by NW Jim on Apr 15, 2002

I agree, finally some else sees my point also.

You must be a veteran, I mean a veteran with many trips
to Colombia for chicas!!

[JUAN]

... in response to Re: Re: What the hell does it take. Pers..., posted by NW Jim on Apr 15, 2002

The US government can say what they want about fighting and ending the drug trade, the fact is, they need it.

If the drug trade were to be ended how much of the crime that goes on now would cease?

How many law enforcement officers would lose their jobs because their services wouldn't be needed any more?

How about the prisons? Someone is getting rich building them and maintaining them (security guards, electric costs, surveillance etc).

I believe the US has other interests in Colombia, what they are, I don't know exactly, but I do believe they are just using the 'war on drugs/terror' as a  reason to justify having a presence in Colombia.

[Pete E]

... in response to The United States needs the Drug trade, posted by JUAN on Apr 15, 2002

We need the drug trade?We are trying to keep our cops busy and prisons full?Thats totally rediculous.We have lots of better things to be spending the money on that would employ people in something that would produce a possitive result.When you spend money on something that produces no goods it creates inflation.Much better to be creating something with the money.Yes we might have less cops and prisons.No problem.
As far as having a reason to be involved in Colombia,we do without the drugs anyway.We have a stake in what goes on in this hemiphere.We need to help our neighbors to be free and properous.And we are directly affected by what happens there.Our emphasis should shift from drugs to terrorism in Colombia.
The drug issue in the United States has us spending hundreds of billions of dollars on law enforcement and prisons.Maybe as bad  but not directly in a budget item is the Hundreds of billions of dollars that leave the country that are spent on drugs.This contributes to a balence of payments problem that doesn't show up in normal trade.The money also corrupts many people in many countries,Colombia being the main example here although it is huge in Mexico also.Our drug money is going to groups like the FARC to create huge problems in Colombia.
We have ONE MILLION young black men in prison on drug trafficing related charges.
I personally drugs should be decriminalized.The government could control sales,making huge profits and be better able to control who gets drugs,as in minors.The street doesn't care who buys them.
We would:
1.Save the enforcement money(admittedly other enforcement problems would arise,which I would argue would be less).
Hundreds of billions here.
2.Save huge amount of money going out of the country that
only corrupt the situation in other counties,as we see in Colombia.This could actually solve all our balence of payment problems.Hundreds of billions here.
3.Create a huge amount of money from the tax on the drugs.
A large part could be for drug treatment and education,but there could be enough left over to cut taxes or pay off the national debt.
4.Quit harrasing people who's only crime is to use a controlled substance.This is supposed to be a free country.What you do in your home should be your own business.Only those people who commit a crime that effects others would be law breakers.
5.Take the profit out of the drug business.People would still do drugs but they wouldn't be doing them with money made on drugs.Eliminate all the drug turf killings.Take housing projects out of the retail drug business.eliminate the money all those weapons are bought with.And of course all off the international drug trade.
Of course there could be big problems.We already got big problems.Maybe more people would kill themselves with drugs.They can get smart or die in my opinion.There would be huge amounts of money treatment.If regular cocaine was cheap maybe people would switch from crack,which is much more dangerous.There are many other problems people could be concerned about.I think they can be handled resulting in less of a problem than we now have.

OK,I know many of you will disagree.I'm sure I didn't include all the possible negatives.You might even convince me I am wrong.But isn't it at least worthy of a serious debate instead of being dismissed by people who are afraid to touch it?
This is very out of favor in the current political envirement.Maybe we needs lots more failed policy first,like Colombia needs alot more FARC BS befroe they get serious.When our current Federal government has a problem with medical marijuana we are light years apart.I am a Bush supporter but he is so out of it on some social issues,like this and stem cell research.I think like the Libertarians here,but don't buy some of their other ideas,like issolationism.
Look at alcohol and tobacco.We give people the freedom to kill themsselves here if they want.Huge problems are deemed acceptable in the name of freedom,and rightly so I think.And crime related to alcohol is huge.And as we saw with alcohol,prohibition does not work.
Can you immagine a TV add that says don't snort and drive,while showing people using in an acceptable social situation,like our alcohol adds?No,No,elliminate all ads for harmfull products.
But I am getting way too far out.
How does this relate to foriegn brides?Well admittedly I'm on a big tangent,but we have huge interest in Colombia on this board,and Colombia is being hugely affected by this policy.
Plus I thought it was getting a little boring.

Pete

[Wayne]

... in response to Re: HUH?Long drug argument., posted by Pete E on Apr 15, 2002

Pete,

Ummmm, yep, that just about says it all.

Thank you,
Wayne