Cali for Black Men ?

[TheVibe]

I am a black man, or man of color.
Is Cali the place to go?

[Hoda]

... in response to Cali for Black Men ?, posted by TheVibe on Nov 14, 2001

trying to start something.... That's why I asked this poster to register!

[Hoda]

... in response to Cali for Black Men ?, posted by TheVibe on Nov 14, 2001

And then we'll rap. Been down the road before. Don't forget to supply your e-mail addy.

Later....

[Aaron]

... in response to Cali for Black Men ?, posted by TheVibe on Nov 14, 2001

Vibe,

What's Up? OK. Let me fill you in. I'm African-American, and I have been to different cities and small towns in Colombia. Before you go, I would like for you to:

1.) Realize that Latin America, especially Colombia, Panama, Venezuela, the islands, and other countries in the caribean, are one huge melting pot. Why is that? It's because these countries had large concentrations of indians and african slaves who mixed with Spanish colonists.

Within the countries that have large populations of blacks and indians, and people who are mixed between blacks, indians, and whites, there is allot of interracial mixing. Really, in allot cases it is considered very appealing. When I travel, and even here in the states, I get plently of compliments from Latinas about my skin color, body built, openness, spontaneity, and overall attitude. For example, I know of a woman from Bogota here in the states. We are good friends. She's white. But it doesn't matter. Everytime I'm with this lady she calls me "Moreno Dulce - Sweet Brown Man." When she says that I smile so much. It makes me feel really good. Also, it's common for Latinos to refer to each other as "Negro or Negra," which is a term of affection, and does come from the histories of darker skin people within that part of the world. So, if a white from Latin America calls you "Mi Negro" don't get mad, unless he is using the word in a negative connotation. In Colombia, blacks may also be refered to as "Niche," which refers to blacks as being skilled laborers. This can be negative. But, In Cali, the word "Niche" is considered a term of affection used by people of darker skin color, and maybe even some whites. In fact, Cali's notorious Salsa band, Grupo Niche which is mostly black, has taken the term as its title. I think you'll be surprised to find that there is a strong African influence in Cali, and in other parts of Colombia. However, I will warn you that you will still find people that are racist in Colombia or anywhere you go for that matter...even in Africa.

2.) Forget about all your preconceived notions about whites, blacks, or whoever before you get to Cali. I'm not saying that what you experience and believe isn't valid. However, quite frankly race relations in Colombia are not preceived the same way as they are in the USA. Your previous experiences and beliefs, although they may be valid and helpful in the USA to some degree, wont do you any good in Colombia. They could possible prevent you from meeting and marrying the girl of your dreams. I have dated African-American women and Latinas of all colors, and I have come to realize that what is important is the heart and mind of a person, not their color.  

Keep posting. Hoda and Keith Smith are African-American as well.

Chao,
Aaron

[Raptor]

... in response to Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Aaron on Nov 14, 2001

However, quite frankly race relations in Colombia are not preceived the same way as they are in the USA. "

Just what do you mean by this?

BTW,  I'm part African and AMI.  Are you saying America is a racist nation?

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Raptor on Nov 15, 2001

Raptor,

Is this an important issue for you to discuss about? Also, I am part African-American, American Indian, and Irish American as well.

I still genuinely believe that racial/ethnic discrimination exists in the USA, and will continue to exist until there is equity with the distribution of resources (e.g., financial, political, and vocational and educational opportunities, etc.) across all groups of people. In other words, I believe that racism is a derivative of socio-economic inequity.

Most Americans don't see racism this way. They see it simply as a group of people from a particular race as being superior or inferior to other racial groups. But, the question is this..."what is the criteria for measuring racial superiority or inferiority?" It is none other than a group's socio-economic position in relation to other groups. In addition, it's common place for groups that are of similar or more homogenous socio-economic status to share the same values, interact, and mix with each other.

Most nations, other than the USA, view racism this way. Quite frankly, most nations fully realize that racism based on the idea that one racial group is genetically superior or inferior to others is absurd given scientific evidence that mankind has a common ancestry and we have more genetic similarities than differences. Actually, the concept of race is losing ground because  scientists (i.e., biologists, geneticists, anthropologists, psychologists, etc.) are all claiming that race is nothing more than a social construct (idea) created by men.

I think with increased education, all Americans or whoever, will begin to learn the true origins of racisim, and we will be able to understand how the marginalization of groups out of financial greed and political control leads to racist beliefs. With this progress, we can begin to unlearn what we have learned, and teach the truth that we are all equal and from the same family.

Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Aaron on Nov 15, 2001

Aaron,
I was going to shoot you a private mail since we are diverging here from the subject of the list,but your E-mail wasn't listed.
I agree with much of what you say,but half to diagree with one part.You say racism is a derivative of social-economic inequity.I see it reverse of that.I think racism can be a major cause of social-economic inequity.Certainly the history of black people in this country has caused them to be in economically disadvantaged possition,but whats the way out?Try to make everyone equal under the law and eliminate discrimination as much as we can.For sure it still exists,but nothing like in the past.And there are compensating factors,like affirmative action(a whole seperate discussion).Part of what you suggest is a distribution of financial resourses.Marxism 101.It doesn't work.I think you may have spent too many years too close to the leftist politically correct atmosphere on college campuses.Just giving people money does not work.Look at the history of the welfare system.What we need to do is create the opportunity for success.We have done that in my opinion.I point to our immigrants as an example.They are not waiting for a handout,they are just thrilled with opportunity.Many people here do not see opportunity.They have been led to believe they are victims,which is partally true,but then wait for the government to bail them out.Victimology is as limiting as spending most of your life in a communist regeme.People don't accept responsibilty for their lives,and that makes them powerless to change them.They are looking for someone else to do it.Thinking you are powerless is the most dehabilitating condition of all.
Immigrants are quite different.They have usually lived so many years in societies with almost no opportunity that the US looks like heaven.They can come here not speaking the language,without education and being members of minority gruops who are discriminated against,and become tremendously successfull,while their more complacent fellow citizens just kick back and don't work too hard.I put myself in that catagory also.I don't have their motivation also.
I have a gardener from Mexico who has been here 8 years.He now has a crew of men working for him.His wife started cleaning houses and now employs others at this.They now own 3 houses worth over one million dollars,one they live in and 2 they rent out and he is looking for more.He works,not whines his butt off.I would like to do a little exchange student program and exchange some of our welfare cases with people from a poor village in Mexico.
Look at all the oriental families who instill in their kids that they must study very hard to succeed.Are these kids going to have a problem?I don't think so.
Racism and poverty are cultural.What we now have is the residue of racism,where families lost connection with their culture and values.The one thing a black kid needs more than anthing is the knowledge that he is as good and smart as anybody and he can be successfull,its up to him.He may not have the advantages of others he can see,but if he dwells on that it will be a big motivation killer for him.And it is up to society to make opportunity availiable.It is up to the individual to take advantage of it.Unfortunately what he may hear is victimolgy.All though there is truth in the story,it is dehabilitating.
I agree that there seem to be no differences in abilities among the races(except that blacks seem to be better athletes).This is a social,histoical cultural issue.I wish the example of the immigrants was held up more.I wish USA Today did a story every day of people who came here under tremendous hardship and disadvantage and succeeded to a tremendous level.They could run a story a day for a hundred years and not run out of  examples.
We will probably get this thread bounced.We,especially me,got way too political.I just couldn't let it go.
Yes,Colombia is a great opportunity for Americans black and white,and it seems their attitude about racial differences is more healthy than here.I would encourage any man,of whatever race to just go.The opportunities to find the wife we seek are much better.Just another example of taking charge of your life.Don't complain,just switch fields of opportunity.
I hope I am not thought to be offensive to you,even if we seem to have big difference of oppinion.

Pete

[George Owusu]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Pete E on Nov 15, 2001

I definately agree with you.  First, of all I'm originally from Ghana I came here when I was 14, I'm currently 22 and in college, I can identify with a lot of your opinions.

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by George Owusu on Nov 16, 2001

I worked with a man from Ethiopia.He was very creative.He and his wife had a couple of small businesses going on the side.He was always finding a new opportunity.My favorite is when he bought a big  Xerox copy machine that wasn't working for about $100.He then managed to get Xerox to sell him a warrantee and then they fixed the machine for free.He then opened a little copy business right across the street from a university and was making lots of money with his $100 copier.
He was able to get out of Ethiopia years ago when a communist government took over.Even though he was not political he got a political asylum visa,plus got his mother and his wife out also.He was not the best of employees at our government job.He was always getting paged from his outside activities.Even though he had a masters in electrical engineering he was trying to get a job as a computer network administrater.He went for one interview where he almost talked his way in the door,then they sat him down and wanted him to show them what he knew by doing it.The last time I talked to him he was trying to get hired by a company that would pay for his network training.An interesting guy.He saw opportunities most people were oblivious to.

Pete

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Pete E on Nov 15, 2001

Pete,

You haven't offended me one bit. I'm glad that you posted your thoughts. Now let me comment on them.

What do you mean that "Racism and poverty are cultural."?

Are you implying that particular racial/ethnic groups are more inclined to being racist or poorer than others?

Please, do not think that when I say an equitable distribution of resources and a more homogeneous socio-economic status across racial/ethnic groups that I am implying socialisim. I'm not.

However, what I am saying is that greed for financial power and political control by particular racial/ethnic groups have lead to the enslavement, persecution, oppression  and marginalization of other racial/ethnic groups. This was the primary reason why the Jewish Holocoust took place, as well as the African Slave Trade and South African Apartheid. These three attrocities were based on the greed for wealth and political control in the world, and the oppressors of the time justified their actions with racist beliefs and viewpoints by promoting that they were superior to other less worthy groups of people.  

So because of this, and the marginalization and inequity that resulted, the oppressors were able to reinforce their own racist viewpoints that had developed by a circular argument. For example, this circular argument takes the form that "Blacks are inferior because they are poor and have less than others; and the reason why they are poor and have less than others is because they are blacks." This is poor reasoning...it's totally circular.  

So, what I am saying is to ask the question "If blacks were not poor but rich, and had more financial and political power, could people justifiably believe that blacks are racially inferior?" NO!!

Also, given higher ranks of socio-economic status across racial/ethnic groups, people across such groups are found to be equal in terms of intelligence, economic status, social values, and ethics. In this case, can we justifiably believe that these racial/ethnic groups are inferior when they are equally competent in comparison to our own? NO!! Therefore, given equity in socio-economic status across racial groups, people cannot justify racist beliefs.  

To sum this up, what I am saying is that the inequitable treatment and oppression against other racial/ethnic groups should not have been done in the first place. And because of it, along with the mistreatment of groups of people, there is now groups of people around the world that are living in substandard conditions.

However, you are right, we all have the responsibility to pull our own weight if the opportunities are there.

As for the comment that blacks are better athletes, that's hog wash. If you would get up and run 10 miles each morning, lift weights, and practice sports, you would be a better athlete than most blacks. Not all blacks are athletes; not all blacks can jump 10 feet high; not all blacks are fast runners; just like not all blacks are thieves, pimps, or drug dealers.  

Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black Men ?, posted by Aaron on Nov 15, 2001

Aaron,
I'm glad I didn't offend you.I accept your point of view as being correct in how we got in to this situation,people rationalizing inferiority in order to use other people unfairly.I think the situation has changed from that,but we have the residual affect I spoke.I guess I'm talking about blacks making it economically.If that can be achieved it won't be so important that someone is still predjudiced and will remove some of the argument behind the predjudiced position,as you say.
I tend to look at things from economics,I think the social will follow.Many,probably most blacks have moved in to the mainstream economically.Many are left behind.There are many reasons,but a big one is they do not believe what is possible and are stuck in a victim mentality that many black leaders feed in to. Here I think the example of immigrants can be usefull.It is possible,look at what others have done with much more disadvantage but with a vision and motivation.
When I say racism and poverty are cultural I mean there is a cultural belief system and set of attitudes and behaviour that perpetuates the poverty.It is not the only reason but a big reason and getting rid of it is absolutely essential to moving on.
I'm glad you don't believe in a socialistic shifting of wealth.It has been a dismal failure everywhere it has been tried.I believe in creating opportunity,what an individual does with it is up to them.Equal opportunity(which I admit we do not have,it is an objective)does not mean equal results.Individual and group effort is required to take advantage of the opportunity.
I said something like this in a college class one time.The proffesor said it was a "class attitude",which is true,and it is one that works if you believe it and doesn't if you don't.
As far as South America they have the benefit of alot more time of interaction of the races.They can acknowledge the physical differences without it being a big deal.I think there is predjudice there also,but its a little more innocent,if that is possible.
Got to differ with you on the athlete thing.Don't be humble or politically correct.Having hung out in gyms for 40 years I'm not surprised when most proffesional football players are black.An anthropology student gave me an oppinion 30 years ago which I think is correct.He said blacks tend to have more muscle per bone structure.In other words a big strong white guy will be big boned(and probably slow).We are talking offensive linemen here,Clydesdales like Jumbo Elliot.A black man can be big and strong with a smaller bone structure.He can be strong but also fast.And given similar bone structure the black man will tend to have more muscle.How many champion sprinters are black?About a 100% I think.Top ten heavyweight boxers?9 out of ten right now with the inclusion of a big Russian.Again here you need power with speed.This is not just training and motivation.
There is an inate physical factor here.Jimmy the greek had a theory that he got fired for about selective breeding of black slaves.I had not thought of that before he said it,maybe there is some truth to it,I just presumed it was a natural factor that blacks were more likely to have.Of course if we get off into proffesional basketball the advantage is obvious.You see a few whites and no orientals(no offense intended).Just the way it is I think,way more than training and motivation.There is a physical difference here.
Hows that for getting of subject.I amaze myself the tangents I can get in to.
When are you going to Cali again?I will be there 12/11 to 1/12 so if you will be there let me know and maybe we can meet.
What a diverse group of guys are interested in a beautifull latina.(I already have mine).
Take care Aaron.I like your attitude.

Pete

[Aaron]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Black M..., posted by Pete E on Nov 15, 2001

Pete,

Thanks for keeping this going. And we haven't offended each other yet. I guess this is because you are trying to see things with an open mind, unlike many people (whites and blacks). Yes, there are black racist, and even latin racist.

The comment that you mentioned about racism and poverty being cultural, yes it seems that particular groups of people tend to subcumb to that kind of mentally. However, the reason is because the collective psyche of these groups of people have been affected due to long term abuse and oppression, and because of that, they don't know how to break the mental chains of oppression. Slavery in this country was not just a physical oppression, it was mental and spiritual oppression as well. During those times, and still some time after then, blacks were intentionally de-humanized and trained to think they were inferior and helpless, and should be dependent upon whites. Further than that, a strategy that was widely employed by slave runners was to prevent the unification of blacks, and their desire to collectively resist slavery. This was done by separating black families, and creating an atmosphere of competition, jealously, and self-hate amongst blacks. This strategy was so pervasive and "effectively" used by the white slave runners that still today many blacks themselves have feelings of inferiority when comparing themselves to whites within certain context, and many blacks themselves have feelings of self-hate, jealousy, and competition towards other blacks. Why is this still around? It is because this brain washed mentality has been taught from one generation to another, and also strategies of the mental oppression that originated with the slavers are still being subtly used today, but they are not as overt.

So, this creates a mentality of mistrust among blacks, and total helpiness and undenial acceptance and dependence of blacks upon whites. If you have a slave, the slave is dependent on you, and will serve you without question. If you set the slave free, what will it do after then? It has always been taught that its entire existance revolves around your happiness and that its fate depends upon your satisfaction. I'm not referring to you in particular, but to the concept of slave masters and slaves.  

So, blacks along with the help of others, need to learn how to break these mental chains of slavery. I would like to remind you that slavery took place for hundres of years in this country. In fact the African slave trade started with the Portugues in the 16 hundreds. The estimated number of Africans that were taken from Africa is 30 million, only 15 million survived the travel across the ocean chained in boats. The other 15 million died on the ships, or were killed brutally. So, what I'm trying to say is that it slavery was a majory crime against humanity, and just because the physical bondage is not present, the mental bondage still is, and will take longer to free ourselves from.  

Another point that you mentioned about black athletes. Well, you may have a point there. I do believe that the selective breeding of blacks has lead to blacks having more robust body builds. In fact, because of the selective breeding process, blacks in this country and in latin america as well have different body builds than Africans.

The statement you made about the Jimmy the Greek hypothesis is not too far off. It is true. Did you know that the selective breeding and robustness of black athletes today originated during slavery. Blacks were breed like horses to be physically strong, even mentally strong in some ironic cases. Also, a common form of entertainment during those times was to breed robust slaves, and fight them against each other, and gamble on who would be the winner of the match. Doesn't that sound similar to particular sports that are around today?

However, I think the differences between our body builds is due more to environment and manipulation by people. And if whites were selectively breeded, and physically conditioned, they would have a similar physique as blacks.

As far as me and Latinas...! =0) I hope that you don't consider me as a racist, because I'm not. I would never bring a latina here, and teach her and our children racist ideas and hate. However, I would teach them the truth behind this whole mess so we all (blacks and whites) can get pass it. Really, I've dated women of all colors, and I am not ashamed to say that I prefer white Latinas with brown eyes and brown hair. I like the idea of racial mixing, and creating a life that is not limited by stupid ideas, but is strong and full of love. It's my personal preference. As for when I will return to Cali, I don't think I will be going any time soon. Travelling to Colombia has become a spiritual experience for me as well, and I don't feel it is time for me to go back just yet. I feel that the woman for me is there, but we will meet when we are both ready. Plus, I will be moving to Australia in May for two years to work.

Take Care,
Aaron

[Hoda]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cali for Bla..., posted by Aaron on Nov 16, 2001

Way to go bro! Don't piss me off and disappear to the land down under, ya hear? Great to hear guys talk & practice the spiritual (not necessarily religious) aspect of the search. The blood in your body is clearly not settling in one area. Going south is a "Total" experience for you. Hey ya never know, who ya might meet out there in the land of roos, crocs & sharks...lol

Peace...Hoda

[Aaron]

... in response to So you took the Aussie gig!!!!, posted by Hoda on Nov 16, 2001

Hoda and Pete,

Even though I may go to Australia, that doesn't mean I'm giving up on Latinas. I'm going to always like Latinas.
This is just professional move.

I'll still be around,
Aaron

[Pete E]

... in response to Hoda and Pete, posted by Aaron on Nov 16, 2001

Aaron,
Just a professional move?OK,I believe that,but unless you find a latina to take with you that 2 years might start making those Aussie girls look pretty good.Heh,whatever happens happens,at least you know you have the option we talk so much about here.When my cousin went his wife came back and divorced him,so I think he might have been having a good time.He then moved to New Zealand and married a woman there,but she was no beauty and kind of a nut case.From all account I have heard they are fun loving people,the guys tend to be a little crazy,the women I'm not sure.
Good luck and keep us posted.

Pete