What about Mexico?

[KADAMS]

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Here we go again, mean ol' racists are on every corner. Get over it and move on with your life, or get a new handle. Get out of the city, and call a white guy a racist, most will say "So?"

Move on bro.

[Randy G]

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Juan:

I just read my initial post over again, and nowhere could I find any racist remarks. Let me state that these are observations I gleaned from listening to my fiancees family, who are solid middle class with educations at public (free) universities, and the families I met while in Guadalajara who were upper middle class.
I'm sorry Juan, but my descriptions next will probably offend your already delicate sensibilities, but you are the one who unjustly called me a racist. I go out of my way to talk to Mexicans here in the USA most Gringos wouldn't want to even have around except to mow thier lawns. YOU are offensive to me since you branded me something I am totally not!

OK, here it is:

1) Cholos: These are Chicano gang type members who wear the baggy pants, etc. They cause havoc here in the USA and are especially not welcome in Mexico, as they like to Grafitti up 500 year old churches and other beautiful buildings. They are despised by Mexicans in Mexico because they give Mexicans a bad rap. My amigos that work at the local Mexican restaurant here in Oregon hate Cholos too, because they steal cars, impregnate young teen girls, use and sell drugs, etc. Basically they are troublemakers of the worst sort. As my fiancee says, they have no respect for anything or anybody.

2) Nacos: These are people in Mexico who come to the cities from the countryside who have no education. They tend to throw garbage all over on the streets, spit on the sidewalks, drink and cause trouble. With a little education, these people could be better citizens, I guess.

Remember Juan, before you shoot your mouth off again, that these are observations of mine. And yes, I rubbed elbows with the 'elite' as you call them at my University where I studied, and found most to be nice people who are for the most part wanting to help Mexico be a better place. Contrast that with previous generations of the rich in Mexico, who just wanted to safeguard their position in society and accumulate more wealth.

Like I said before, I lived with the middle class, my fiancees family is solid middle class, moving on up to upper class through study and hard work. Nothing was handed to them, and they have the initiative to make it happen.

I hope you understand a little better now and refrain from making derogatory comments about my character from now on.

Randy

[Raptor]

... in response to What exactly is  a "mainstream"..., posted by JUAN on Aug 25, 2001

Juan,

Grow up will ya!  He married a Mexican.  How racist can he be?

Having a Latin child myself I find it really sad when people run around looking to become a victim.

Go find Jessie Jackson, he needs a friend.

[Tai]

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Randy,

What stereotypes are you referring to that the men on this forum have regarding Mexicans?

If I am not mistaken you have eluded to the "difference" between Chicano and Mexican culture in previous posts. Please explain the differences you, and the mainstream Mexicans you reference, are referring to.

Reading your post I can't help but feel that there are quite a few assumptions made that you have taken as facts, not to mention a few things taken for granted.

just .02

Tai

ps - I've visited your webpage, and enjoyed the photos. I am happy that you have found your special someone, regardless of whether it was Mexico, China, or Russia.

[Randy G]

... in response to Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Tai:

Thanks for the comments.

What I meant by the stereotype statement is that we as Americans tend to be very ethnocentric when it comes to other cultures, that is we tend as Americans to know it all.

One of the recurring things I heard over and over again from my fiancees family and others is that there are many types of people in Mexico, not just the Mexicans that tend to emigrate to the USA, which are usually darker, Amer-Indian or Meztizos. We as Americans tend to generalize that what we see is usually the truth. There are many Mexicans who are of pure European descent (criollo), Japanese, Lebanese, Italian, German, Syrian, Colombian, etc. What I kept hearing over and over is that Mexico is just as much a melting pot as the USA is. Asians come to Mexico to start businesses. I met one Japanese girl whose family had been in Mexico for over 120 years, who spoke only Spanish.

The fact is that these White and Asian Mexicans have no need or desire to emigrate to the USA, as they usually are middle or upper class to begin with. The people we see coming to the USA from Mexico and Central America are for the most part the poorest segment of those societies, people who have nothing. They are for the most part good, honest and very hard working and many are realizing the American dream. I know of a man from Oaxaca who started his own small landscape business, and now he has a house and is sending his daughter to college. Could he have done that in Mexico? No way.

But the Chicano culture is very differant from the culture of Mexico, as it is neither American or Mexican, but Chicano.

I am not racist in any sense of the word. There are bad and good in all races and ethnic peoples. What I can't stand is this continued whining from people like Juan. I don't owe anybody anything. I think at least here in this country, anybody can now become anything they want to be.

These statements about Mexico are observations and truths I have seen. I am not going to sugarcoat anything for people like Juan. I rest my case.

Only in America...Randy

[JUAN]

... in response to Elaboration..., posted by Randy G on Aug 25, 2001

"The people we see coming to  the USA from Mexico and Central America are for the most part the poorest segments of these societies, people who have nothing."

This great country was built from immigrants looking for a better life or escaping wars and political turmoil in their home countries, from the founding fathers to the Irish and the Italians in the early 20th century to the explosion of Asian and Latin American immigration we are seeing today.

Most people wouldn't leave their native country if they didn't have to.

"But the chicano culture is very different from the culture of Mexico, as it is neither American or Mexican but Chicano."  Correct, it's Mexican-American.

"There are bad and good in all races and ethnic peoples."  Correct, why stereotype?

"The statements about Mexico are observations and truths I have seen."  I never questioned your knowledge of Mexican culture in Mexico but your opinions of Mexican Americans.

[Red Clay]

... in response to Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Tai on Aug 25, 2001

Here's what happened in my home, coincidentally, just last night. Upon returning home from work, my new Peruvian wife said she had just watched Dateline NBC, hosted by Geraldo. The show focused on gang lifestyles in California cities. Mi esposa told me, "baby, the people in gangs live a terrible lifestyle. I couldn't believe they were almost all Latin! It's a little embarrassing to me. I'm almost certain they were mostly of Mexican descent, by their accent."
  Her observations were completely unsolicited, I hadn't even sat down yet before she started telling me about it. She also told me that she was concerned about growing illegal immigration, based on what she had seen on that program.
  I explained to her that most of the illegal [and legal] Mexican people that I know are good decent people, different from the Mex-Amer. gang members that she saw on TV. I told her that Latin gangs are nothing new, have been in existence for decades in some larger cities. I told her the recent Mexican immigrants, for the most part, are not coming here to join gangs.
  Point is, Randy and myself are not racists for pointing out the difference in groups of people who happen to share the same language. Stereotypes are usually EARNED, based on a frequent or common behavior among a particular group. They are not just "made up". Here in the South, we are stereotyped as fat, uneducated, uncultured rednecks. Why? Because there are alot of people here who are fat, uneducated, and uncultured, or at least very unsophisticated. The stereotype is understood and accepted by those of us who don't fit that description. Doesn't bother us, we just do what we can to show that not all of us are that way, but we do it by example, not by claiming that those who mention the stereotype are racist.

[Randy G]

... in response to Re: Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Red Clay on Aug 25, 2001

Red Clay:

I claim my home in eastern Oregon, which is worlds away from the Portland Metro area, where I am 'camped out' until I return to Mexico soon.

Most people from Portland don't know anything about eastern Oregon. It is an under-populated (80,000) area the size of Utah. It is agricultural based, and it is obvious city people nowadays know absolutely nothing about agriculture, so we tend to be stereotyped as un-educated cowboy hicks, poor environmenatal stewards of the land we make a living off of, etc. Well, they are right about the cowboy part, and they should understand just how many of these ranchers out here actually have a degree and are very good environmentalists, because if they weren't, they would soon be out of business.

My point is, one group of people tends to think they know it all, and therefore the stereotype begins. Eastern Oregonians are rugged individualists, take care of themselves in a rather harsh environment and learn how to make do. We also tend to stereotype about the typical Portlander as the tree hugger,eco-terrorist, pierced and tatooed self absorbed, over educated, lacking common sense, etc.

Imagine my suprise when I first visited my fiancees hometown near Guadalajara, and about half of the people were fair skinned, with blond hair, etc. I thought I knew it all, but these people didn't look anything like the Chicanos in the USA. I was suprised and stood corrected.

Randy

[Viajero]

... in response to Re: Re: Randy, care to elaborate?, posted by Red Clay on Aug 25, 2001

Good points, clay! I used to live in the deep South (now in Texas) and I know what you mean. We all have to deal with stereotypes of one sort or another.

Interesting thing happened to me recently. I was on an assignment and was with an American colleague who was born and raised in Spain. When I made mention of my hispanic novia he took exception to the use of that word, telling me that when I used the word "hispanic" what I really meant was Mexican, or Chicano. He made it clear that he didn't want to be associated with "that culture".

I explained that most of my experience with Latin culture was in Central and South America (and Houston and Miami) and that I knew what I meant, and in any case the Mexican culture was nothing to be denigrated. Not only that, but I sure wasn't going to play up to this guy's European prejudices simply because he didn't like the connotations of a certain word, connotations which he'd attached to that word himself and do not exist with most people I know.

I see this in every Latin country as well. Each place has an idea of what the neighbors are like. Paraguayans feel a certain way about Argentinians. Dominicans have opinions about the Cubans, and so on.

Look, guys, it's hard for me to believe that a forum composed of men who have and / or want foreign wives has many, if any, racists, and they wouldn't contribute their thoughts and experiences for the general good. Our society is already hypersensitive to alleged attacks on this group or that one. Let's let those people deal with their own problems, we have a good thing going on here. Leave it outside, please.

[rubio]

... in response to What about Mexico?, posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

i agree, i wish there was more discussion of other latin countries. but this board will always have a columbian tilt to it. i am sure mexico is beautiful, as are the latin countries of the caribbean, brazil ,and central america

[Randy G]

... in response to Re: What about Mexico?, posted by rubio on Aug 24, 2001

I am looking for a honeymoon place in November. Would you recommend the north shore of the DR as a good honeymoon destination? The good thing about getting married in Guadalajara is that there are some excellent packages to places like Cuba, DR, all the Mexican beach resorts, etc. My short list of honeymoon locations is:

1) Huatulco
2) Cuba
3) Hawaii
4) Cozumel

So, what about the DR? Would it be a good choice for a honeymoon?

Randy G

[rafael]

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

The north Coast of the DR is very nice but a bit "touristy" for my blood. Of course on your honeymoon you might prefer an all inclusive luxury resort;-) If that is the case the north coast is a safe bet.

I think I would prefer Cas De Campo on the south side of the Island. Very famous resort and also near Altos De Chavon etc.

You would also be a few hour drive from Santo Domingo the Capital. Definitely not touristy, so if you don't want to see any poverty and mingle with locals, stay at an all inclusive. I really like strolling the colonial zone in SD. Beautiful old buildings and nice outdoor cafes to sip a Presidente etc.

[rubio]

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

Sure, the DR is great for a honeymoon. personally if time and money are no problem, then i would pick hawaii or tahiti
but thats just me. if you decide on the DR then i would find a all-inclusive, either in puerta plata, or casa de campo, santiago is beatuiful as well, and be sure to see semana bay, good luck!!!

[Cali vet]

... in response to About the Dominican Republic, Rubio..., posted by Randy G on Aug 24, 2001

I'm sure you're thinking in terms of beach resorts but it's kind of cool to fly into Puerta Plata, spend the night in Los Charamicos then catch the bus (Caribe Tours is best) for Santiago the second city, spend a couple of days there including checking out the Museo Folklorico Tomas Morel then continue by bus down to the capital or before leaving the Cibao region go up to Jarabacoa for a couple of days, its in the mountains and swim beneath the waterfalls. After enjoying the sights in the capital you can fly out from Santo Domingo.

[ecos]

... in response to Re: About the Dominican Republic, Rubio...., posted by Cali vet on Aug 24, 2001

Cali-vet had some good choices.  the puerto plata resorts are quite nice.  but for a honey moon you might consider Punta Cana.  all inclusive resorts.  not too expensive.  you can't go wrong.  beautiful beaches.  would make a great honey moon location.  You can fly directly into Punta Cana or if you wish fly to Santo Domingo and check out some of the sites there.  recommended.