Catholic's, Divorce and more.

[Craig]

Dear Peter...I don't profess to be an expert on Catholic canon law, but I will tell you that I believe that you will have to obtain an annulment front the Catholic church, in order to marry in the church. This should be no problem because you stated that you were married in a Las Vegas (drive through) chapel. Since the Catholic church doesn't recognize your wedding in Vegas as legit, you can obtain an annulment, (through the Catholic church) and now marry in the Catholic church. This process is fairly easy, because of the non-Catholic wedding. When it does become complicated, is when a man and a women, who were married in the Catholic church, attempt to divorce. There are only a few circumstances in which the church will grant the annulment

[El Diablo]

... in response to Catholic's, Divorce and more., posted by Craig on Aug 16, 2001

This whole area of marriage, annulment and divorce can be quite complicated and probably best left to experts.  There are exceptions with regard to some things and its hard to know whether they apply unless someone competent sits down with the couple and walks them through their histories.  

As an example of how complicated it can be, a baptised Catholic who marries someone in Vegas may in fact actually be considered validly married.  The baptised Catholic would first have to be considered apostate however.  To be apostate you would have to renounce your religion in some manner.  I'm not talking about someone who's taking a break from their religion as is frequently the case but rather something a bit stronger. No offense to my buddy Pete below, but he might be an example of someone who has become apostate in that a person has renounced their religion despite being baptized into it. In this case, the church would recognize the Vegas marriage as valid, not sacramentally but in concordance with natural law.  The church recognizes the marriage between non-Catholics as valid however it is not seen as sacramental.

Anyway, I'm starting to confuse myself so don't quote me on this!!!  (-:  

El Diablo

[casinobill]

... in response to Catholic's, Divorce and more., posted by Craig on Aug 16, 2001

Craig,

If the wedding did not occur through the Catholic Church, it never happened! Therefore, there is no such thing as an annulment of a marriage that never happened!

Annulment of a Catholic marriage may not be all that difficult, it really depends on your local diocese or archdiocese, and your individual circumstances. I went thru it and anyone who wants info can write to me.

Bill

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......It..., posted by casinobill on Aug 16, 2001


""If the wedding did not occur through the Catholic Church, it never happened! Therefore, there is no such thing as an annulment of a marriage that never happened!""

I'm not an ex seminarian but nevertheless I think your statement may not be entirely correct.  It would be true in the case of a Catholic in good standing with the church but it isn't necessarily true for non-Catholics. Marriages between non-Catholics are real and presumed to be valid (not sacramental).  Anyway, if I'm wrong could you clarify this point for me.  Thanks...

El Diablo

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......It..., posted by casinobill on Aug 16, 2001


About 85% of the marriages that go before a Catholic  marriage tribunal in the United States are ultimately granted annulments.  The Catholic church in North America is rather liberal in their interpretation of canon law, so much so that the Vatican has been critical of it.  In practice, annulments in the United States have become more or less the equivalent of a secular divorce.

In Colombia on the other hand, an annulment is much more difficult to attain. If canon law is being applied liberally in The U.S. it would be fair to say that it is extremely strict in Colombia.  An annulment is granted by the local bishop which has jurisprudence over the particular case.  Generally that would be the bishop of the area in which the couple lived.  If you're marrying a Colombian woman whose previous marriage was recognized by the Catholic Church, you can pretty much assume that her annulment will be difficult at best.  

My own view is that the Church gives out annulments to easily here in the States but on the other hand they are too strict in Colombia.

El Diablo

[Pete E]

... in response to Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......It..., posted by casinobill on Aug 16, 2001

Bill,
I can't miss the opportunity to take a shot at the hyprocracy of the Catholic church.
Case in point,one Frank Sinatra.Frank's last wife wanted him to get an annulment from his first wife,Nancy,who he was married to for 10-15 years and had 3 children by.Sounds like if there was ever a case where an annulment was not in order this would be it,but no,some connections and some money and it was granted.Tina Sinatra didn't think that was right(my parents weren't married???).At least he didn't go to hell for getting a divorce.
It looks like the church has such strict basic rules that it is commonplace to wink and get around them.I think there are many social catholics,who won't disagree with what the church says but are not really religious.I was one untill I
got old enough to think for myself and dumped them.
No offence intended to anybody out there,just to the institution.

Pete

[Craig]

... in response to Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......It..., posted by casinobill on Aug 16, 2001

Wrong. As I said I'm Not an expert in Roman Catholic Canon Law, but I'm no dummy either. The Catholic Church does not recognize marriages outside the Roman Catholic church as a marriages based on Roman catholic doctrine. Therefore they do not recognize the marriage within the confines of canon law, but they still understand, and recognize that there was a marriage, and still require an annulment through the Roman Catholic church. An annulment is required. What you said that was correct was that it may depend on the local dioceses. In Colombia (Cali), I've seen priests hold strict to the canon law doctrine, and others not. I also know for a fact that what I said occurs because I've seen it done here in my diocese, here in Orlando. The women in question was a catholic, who married her husband in a civil wedding, in front of a judge. She was able to get an annulment within weeks. She did though, as I stated, sought, needed, and received the annulment. Annulments that occur between Catholic's take 6 months or more, and must be reviewed for grounds by a tribunal of priests, who determine if there are grounds for divorce. You must supply paperwork, and witness statements explaining why the marriage was invalid. Except for one, all of the reason's must have taken place before the actual marriage. So I take issue with your statements, and stand by mine.

[genode]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......., posted by Craig on Aug 16, 2001

I was married by a judge and divorced.  I asked my priest if I needed an annulment and he said no because the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize my marriage as a sacrament.  In the eyes of the church, I did not celebrate the sacrament of marriage with God and it therefore did not take place.  Craig, if you are Catholic, go ask your priest.  He will tell you the same thing.

[casinobill]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......., posted by Craig on Aug 16, 2001

Craig,

Gotta disagree!!!! The church does not recognize any form of marriage other that one performed and recognized by the Catholic church. It as I said, it never happened! This is why Patrick stated the part about "living in sin".  The two people are NOT MARRIED, unless it is performed by the Church.

Both my parents and I went thru the anullment proceedures and later posters are correct, that the proceedures take time. Statements are solicited from both parties and the petitioner is interviewed. When the "discovery process" is completed the tribunal reviews the evidence and rules on the anullment. Some may remember that one of the Kennedys tried this, possibly Teddy.  The public outrage caused an end to the idea.

I don't recall specifics but I think my anullment took several months and my ex cooperated. It probably helped that the priest who interviewed me was a friend of the family...

A former seminarian.

Bill

ps: we had four children together!

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: Catholic's, Divorce and more......., posted by Craig on Aug 16, 2001

I'm Catholic. My Ex is Catholic. We were married by a probate judge in Alabama. My priest (in the Dallas, Texas Diocese), says "as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you were never married" and that he'd be glad to perform the sacrament for us (the lady in question has never been married, not even in a civil ceromony). So, like the others said, "It never happened". Too bad the *&^%$ state district court wasn't that easy convince...but that's another story.

[El Diablo]

... in response to Maybe my priest is just too liberal, posted by Michael B on Aug 16, 2001

No this isn't a case of your Priest being too liberal.  Two baptized Catholics who are not apostate would NOT be validly married, if they were married by a probate judge.  You would have to show documentation as evidence however the procedure should be much quicker and faster than the formal annulment process.  It is unclear to me whether the diocosean tribunal needs to approve the evidence.

I don't think your particular case would be considered an annulment either.  I "think" an annulment would be in the case where a marriage is presumed to be valid unless shown to be otherwise.  In your case, I think the presumption would be that the marriage was not valid.  

El Diablo