H2-OH

[El Diablo]

It sounds to me like H2-OH is admitting he made some rather foolish choices and hopefully he will learn from them in the future.  I want to commend him however for having the guts to come forward.

It should be noted that H2-OH does not in any way resemble the caracature HD implies in his subject line, "I'm Gunna Go Git ME one....."  This conjures up images of some ignorant redneck from the deep South or Texas but I can assure you that H2-OH is neither. He is a very successful person, intelligent, well rounded and liked by everyone he meets, and he even speaks Spanish.  (-:

For me, H2-OHs story is not untypical of what is happening in Cali.  His story is one of many that I know of.  I've written about some of this in the past  but I think people prefer to hear the "success stories".  It comes as no surprise to me that a board made up of men aggresively looking for foreign brides, would be perhaps a little quick in proclaiming "success" while somewhat blind to the realities of failure.

H2-OHs story is really worth thinking about.  We can not dismiss him as some nerdy needy guy ready to marry the first girl he meets either.  It's just not true.  And while I don't know Sandra, I knew Johanna even before she hooked up with H2-OH. Despite some very bad character flaws discovered with time, she was/is in many ways a caring and sweet girl.  (Some of the sweet Calenas you meet come from very unstable families with major problems. )  

Are people really surprised by this story?  I'm not in the least. I think we may be contributing to these kind of stories by sending contradictory messages and creating unrealistic expectations among us.   We are essentially telling guys that they can find the wife of their dreams while vacationing in Colombia. How many times do we read get on a plane ASAP.  We live in a society that wants everything right now, instant gratification, instant success, is it no surprise that we'd want instant love or instant marriage too.

Don't be too hard on H2-OH, he's one of the best and most honorable guys I've come accross in Cali.  He's got a big heart, treats everyone with respect and he sees the the very best in people. I like this quality and it works good among friendships however it may be causing him some difficulties when searching for a wife.

El Diablo

[Houndog]

... in response to H2-OH, posted by El Diablo on Jul 15, 2001

You want to get this out into the open finally I'm all for it. Yes this is a society of instant gratification and arrogance by some....but certianly not all...and to talk about marriage with such a dismisive demeanor is shocking.

That characterization applies to far more than one guy here..know what I mean...it applies to evey guy that matches the bill.

Treating looking for a wife as if it's shopping for a car is not only absurd...it's pretty discusting. The level of Arrogance I've read here in the last week just about made me sick to my stomach. The complete lack of dignity given to the women is unbelievable. The arrogance, bigotry and prejudice thats barely being masked with words like conservative is reprehensable at the least.

And while one may be able to explain some of the behavior I'm reading about that certianly Does Not excuse it. There is No Excuse for treating people..women..like objects to be bought sold and traded in like cars.

HD

[KADAMS]

... in response to Re: H2-OH, posted by Houndog on Jul 15, 2001

You bring up good points on the dignity side. I have read many posts here, but it seems that most of the guys who go through this process are between 30-50, average income, maybe divorced, and definately observant about what they don't like in women. (me too). No man or woman ever deserves to be a pushover, or abused. But is it not true that in every relationship, SOMEBODY will take the lead and be in charge? And we all know that power can corrupt, and we have all discussed the warning signs of this in a relationship.

I can speak for only me, but yes I go into a relationship expecting nothing, and that is usally what I end up with. So I take a lighter approach, that way it be so bad in the crash. But I must be honest, when I treat a woman like a princess, she usually uses me. But when I remain quite or don't return her calls, they seem to enjoy this. Unfortunately, acting like a heel gets old, I guess It takes practice.

Be nice, risk being burned, Be a heel, risk becoming one.

what is worse?

[Houndog]

... in response to Burning Heels., posted by KADAMS on Jul 16, 2001

Worse is probably being alone...perhaps ?

I know that in any event treating them as a person, allows me to maintain my dignity no matter the outcome.

HD

[KADAMS]

... in response to Re: Burning Heels., posted by Houndog on Jul 16, 2001

I agree also, do fail with pride does help. To know that you have not been the oppressive member of a relationship does help, sometimes. But don't you ever look back and say, "why did it happen to me?". Unfortunately, I have been on the receiving end of that statement, and for me the pride in knowing that I played a clean game  didn't help me much.

Now I am too cautious, most say......

[Jeff S]

... in response to Re: Burning Heels., posted by Houndog on Jul 16, 2001

.. nothing but net on that call.
-- Jeff S.

[jim c]

... in response to Re: H2-OH, posted by Houndog on Jul 15, 2001

Houndog you have reached the feeling for a colombiana that demands love and RESPECT. More power to you. I think you understand that loving one demands that you respect her sisters. It seems that some of us become involved with this process as a dating exercise,with lists of demands preconcieved attitudes and even questionairs. How ethnocentric can we get?   Again I say we are not buying furniture! The process is an oportunity to meet and attempt a relationship with a woman who may be more attractive or younger than we may find available to us in the united states. This doesn't mean that we can establish a partnership which does not require our efforts other than being a handsome rich american. It seems that each of us has to have a relationship with a woman there to allow us to humanize them. I agree with your anger at the demeaning attitudes prevelant in these forums.
     If you see my recent rant against the K1 it is because of the opportunity for abuse against these women. Would an AW from California move to NY NY for three months and screw you to see if you wanted to marry her. I don't think so But our government makes the rules.
     The women are not that desperate but they do find us exotic as we find them beautiful. We offer a better life for some of them, for some not. There can be a shortage of honesty and misconceptions can be prevelent. But I often find an underlying attitude that comes out in the safe enviorment if the forums, racism and chauvenism . I am often  grumpy and sarcastic on this list and now I think you understand my irritation. I have loved a caleana and it has caused me to be protective of them all. Not as one post suggested, an AW posting as a man. Love takes effort to obtain. If you marry without knowing what you want you get what you pay for.  jim c

[El Diablo]

... in response to Re: H2-OH, posted by Houndog on Jul 15, 2001


Come on HD, you and I both know that 80% of the guys go into an agency and look through a ton of books, picking out photos of the prettiest girls they can find.  They meet the girl, asking her fifty questions, some undignified sexual questions and then it's on to the next hot babe.  Unfortunately the car lot - showroom anology starts in the agency and continues through out the whole process.  I think most people know this to be true generally but no one admits that they themselves do the same.

H2-OH hasn't behaved perfectly but in my opinion you are characterizing him unfairly.  I agree that he has made poor choices that he should be accountable for but I believe his heart was in the right place.  I've seen him with Johanna and the image you portray is just simply false in my opinion.  Guys who see their novia as an object, don't treat them with much respect.  H2-OH has always been the utmost gentleman with her.  I recently had dinner with a few of the San Jose crowd, H2-OH recounted his story and despite everything that had happened,  he showed absolutely no ill will towards her.  I have seen guys who do treat women as objects, and ill will or some sexual perversion is usually somewhere within their makeup.   I share your concern for a women's dignity and while I applaud it, I hope you will apply it consistently and to american women also.

As far as our exchange of posts regarding the terms conservative and traditional, I'm somewhat surprised by your reaction here.  I thought we were having an honest exchange of ideas, one that you in fact had encouraged.  But your words now seem to suggest something different.  And that my (Patrick and Randy also)  use of the word conservative was in reality a mask for bigotry and prejudice.  If this is what you meant by suggesting we get it out in the open, then by all means, please do!!!!!!  I'd be very interested in how you have come to this conclusion regarding me.

El Diablo

[FenixRises]

... in response to H2-OH, posted by El Diablo on Jul 16, 2001

Diablo,
Interesting that you bring up the car lot analogy.
The same analogy occured to me when I was in Cali.
I think it is a very appropriate analogy but with one very large difference. When we look for a car we want something that will fulfill many differing requirements. That is analogous to looking for the woman that we want to make our spouse. Since we are not looking for a newborn but for a grown woman all of those that we meet are "used". I do not mean this in a negative sense. I mean that the women have all been alive for while and therefore have some amount of life experience on their odometers. The place where the analogy differs the most is in the fact that the car you select doesn't have any choice. You pay for it and drive it away, it is "yours". What would happen if the car you choose had the option of choosing you based on your history relating to care and maintenence? Would you lie about the kind of owner you have been? Have you provided good care and maintenance for your previous "cars"? How about the "vehicle" that you choose? Did it provide it's prior owner and associates with spirited and ecnomical performance? Today in the US it is possible to obtain a history report on some used vehicles. Certainly life would be simpler if the "purchaser" and the "purchsee" could obtain truthful "histories" about each other before consumating the deal.
Fred

[Houndog]

... in response to H2-OH, posted by El Diablo on Jul 16, 2001

First..I'm not singling anyone out. No one is more or less responsible or guilty than anyone else. You seem to have missed the point.

The real point is the ATTITUDES . That somehow being unprepared and having Train Wrecks is OK with an excuse.

I don't believe that most of the guys involved in this are bad guys, quite the contrary actually. I believe most have for the most part good intentions(albeit perhaps shortsighted) and have exposed several that didn't.  Again the point is ATTITUDES. The dismissive, permissive Attitudes that it's OK to deny any dignity to the women and the whole process because they are from over there, non-white, only MOB's. What is it ? Of course I can't be positive because of the mix of people involved. But certian trends seem more prevalant than others. With the trend that the women are somehow inconseqental as people and rather just a commodity.

You in fact address the question about personal responsibility. And what is disturbing to me is to see 'enablers' piling on to defend any sense of responsibility to view the women as people. As another post I made states....the dehumanizing of the women and desensatizing of views that going south involves life altering decisions at some point. The trend to dismiss the facts that peoples lives are being affected and not everyone of the people involved can just walk away and shrug their shoulders and say Oh Well. Damage can be done..serious damage to peoples lives and to treat it with a non-chalant shrug is very disturbing. And what does it say about the chances of long term success when even the way the process begins is taken so lightly ? It says that many guys go south with an arrogant and selfish attitude that who cares as long as we get what we want.

And yes, this leads into the reason I and others have talked at lenght in the past about "Doing Ones Homework" . By doing ones homework, if done properly these "Selfish Attitudes" should/could be addressed. With the benifit of giving some the chance to stand back and realize that without significant attitude adjustments the chances of future success actually drop below past success rates.

And the telling tale is how poorly 'replacement therapy" seems to be working. As shown by the many recent posts. Reshuffling the deck isn't working any better according to what I'm reading than it did in the past. Flying blind seems to have worse odds of success according to my math.

So the question becomes why can so few see the benefits and need to go about chooseing a mate differently than the ways that have a high incedence of failure? And the answer is...because many guys just don't friggin want to and since the women are only a commodity in their eyes theres no need to. And that my friend is very sad and disturbing.

HD

[Houndog]

... in response to Re: H2-OH, posted by Houndog on Jul 16, 2001

Bigotry and Racism.....I forget to address this specifcaly and provide a clarification:

I read ALL of the threads before and after I called the use of a word into question. And ALL of the supporting, defending, and new threads that appeared. I recognized distinct differences (in context) in the way certian words were being used by different people and asked for a clarification. That specificaly implies that not everyone was using the word the same, so please don't include yourself or others into a list that was never made.

As you may have noticed no real definitions surfaced other than you and I. Perhaps because as one person wrote me privately..."something slippery and smelly may have been stepped in here" as he likely saw not only what I was eluding to...underlying attitudes...but where I was going. And yes I layed down some landmines(examples)like I told M5 to prevent certian posturing and cut to the chase.

Here's why...The Big Picture...The Long Term Implications...that certian "Better than Thou" attitudes can easily backfire in crosscultural relationships. From simple slips of the tongue to the larger issues of protecting the ladies from others when those attitudes are layed on her as she goes about her life after the first year honeymoon period. And note that Patrick mentioned about married guys dropping out and possibly not wanting anyone to know how they met their wife. Possibly because they realize they would have to defend themselves and her againt the same attitudes they themselves possess. Basically the path of least resistance instead of coming to terms with themselves and their own attitudes. And being the A-Hole I am I threw the carpet back to see what was being swept underneath. A reality check of the real type. A Heads Up that in a LT marriage an entire family and even a country becomes part of someones future along with crosscultural children in many cases that will need nuturing and wisdom to grow up and prosper in a world where they could be called names and be treated as less than. The attitude Sword can Cut Both Ways.

HD

[KADAMS]

... in response to Re: Re: H2-OH, posted by Houndog on Jul 16, 2001

Good shot, I believe that one should also marry the family, the country, the culture. Because it is obvious that our society is pegged for a downturn. I have also posted about "how do I tell my family?". Yes, I too get snickers and sneers, especially for AW's, why should they care? Go to LA, and get treated like a human, that is my experience in C.A., I don't know about S.A. but excited to find out.