Meeting Latinas in Social Settings success story

[bret]

... in response to Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by Edge on May 16, 2001

i spent 6 months in argentina, and my experience is they almost never use the usted form, unless refering to someone much older and very well respected....grandparents, foreign dignitaries etc.

they never use the "tu" form. what they do use is the "vos" form (verbs are conjugated differently, also) and almost always, for everyone.

"vos" is a special, informal way of speaking among friends that is distinctive to argentina (like "tu" in other countries). i have heard that they use it in el salvador also, but i can't say for sure, 'cause i haven't been there! i have never heard the "vos" form in any other spanish speaking country that i have visited. (let me emphsize, "that i have visited and know personally")

i have never been anywhere where they use "usted" very often in casual conversation (maybe spain? but i don't know, 'cause i haven't been there.)

i remember when i first started with spanish, i made a point of using the formal "usted" so as to not offend anyone with my desecration of their language, but it didn't take long for the to tell me....."look, usted is for your parents, don't call me that and especially don't use it with any women you are after! it's like talking with an american woman and calling her ma'am. it just ain't right!

maybe the argentine woman is teaching you "usted" rather than "vos" because "vos"  is not used very much outside of argentina, and she is preparing you for whatever spanish speaking country you might visit.

my experiences are, it's "tu" 99% of the time  (or "vos" in argentina) and "usted" when you meet her father for the first time. but when he relaxes and becomes comfortable with you, just go with the flow and use whatever form they use in the house (which will be "tu").

if you keep using "usted" when they use "tu", it can make them feel like your not comfortable in their presence.

anyway, back to argentina! one of my personal favorites, and the accent is the one i like the most. almost all of the latin world talks about how arrogant are the argentines, but i can say that this is something that i never experienced personally. even in buenos aires, (whose residents everyone compares to the parisians) i was treated with respect and patience.

and the accent also! man i just love it, especially when she has black hair and dark eyes!

well, sorry for rambling on, but you got my motor running with the argentina thing.

uh? i can't remember what your post was about, sorry!

bret

[Traveler]

... in response to Re: Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by bret on May 16, 2001

Honduras, Paraguay, and Uruguay.  I'm not sure about Chile or the Andean Countries.  However, its use is nearly as wide spread as "tu"  

[bret]

... in response to vos is also the common form in Guatemala..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

uruguay, yes for sure, 'cause it basically the same people and culture as argentina. it's just across the rio anyway!

i went to chile two times to renew my visa and did not hear it used there, but let me stress, what i heard personally! i don't always hear everything. but i'm close!

i didn't hear 'vos' in costa rica, but it was a few years ago and i didn't speak any span. when i arrived, so they my have been using it here and there and i didn't get it 'cause my perceptions were all clouded by the s.m.o.k.e.

when i told my tica profesora that i was leaving for argentina, she began to prepare me for the trip with 'vos'---nice lady, she was!

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by bret on May 16, 2001

Bret - I may be wrong but isn't "vos" the plural form of the
informal "tu"?  I understand exactly what you are saying regarding using the "usted" form. I have also heard that they use "vos" in El Salvador and I believe Espana.  This particular lady from Argentina is an older woman, but very classy and extremely kind and nice. She is also one of the better Spanish teachers I have come across because she has been one for many, many years.

It sounds to me, Bret, that you wish you were down there now in Argentina listening to those wonderful accents.

Yo tambien!!

[bret]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by Edge on May 16, 2001

no, "vos" is singular like "tu". also, in argentina, when they address to a group of friends, they say "ustedes", like everywhere else. now, why it is never "usted" for the casual in a singular setting, but "ustedes" among a group of casual friends, i really don't know. i think it's just the way the language is structured. "ustedes" is the only plural expression for both formal and informal. it's just one of those things, i guess!

i would ask many things of my friends down there, and they just shrug their shoulders and say "acepta la frase". so it's don't ask why, just do! and that has been my policy all along. i just follow and pick up on the accent and style that they use, whatever country i'm in.

now, there is a vosotros. but i don't know anything about it, nor have i ever been to a country where they use it.

there is one hombre that posts her under the name of "traveler", and i think his spanish is really good, so maybe he could answer the q.'s about vosotros.

i speak spanish, and it is respectable for a blue-eyed georgia breed gringo, but i would never claim to be fluent. fluency is something you have if your last name is latin, and for the few that actually attain that level through study, but there aren't that many. and anyone who thinks the opposite should learn first, then comment! of course, if one assumes that fluency is asking where the bathrooms are, then he is a lost cause anyway.

this girl i know was here from buenos aires for 3 months  (she speaks no english) and we had a few miscommunications but nothing too bad. however, if my spanish had been any less functional than it is now, then it would have been tuff to communicate and the time we spent together would have been less fulfilling. one just can't understate the importance of speaking a common language! and the only way to get there is study and practice, study and practice... staring into eachothers eyes only goes so far.

i believe you when you say she is a very classy lady! it's a very sophisticated society; everyone is very fashion concious and worldly. and man 'o man, talk about beautiful women!

i lived in mendoza, which is the wine producing region in argentina, and had a wonderful time in the vinyards, eating and drinking, and casually passing the time.

ask her about red wines, asado and alfahores(it's a chocolate desert). the argentines are very proud of their beef and can go on and on about the various cuts and types of sausages.

i know what it is like to study with a professor, and how after a while you can run out of things to talk about, so if she has been away for a long time, she is sure to get nostalgic about the food and wine. hey, maybe if you get her going about argentina, she will give you a tango lesson.

well, gotta get back to work. though, it looks like after this conversation, the day is shot! hell, all i can think about is red wine.

bret

[Edge]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by bret on May 16, 2001

with Maria, who is the older woman from Argentina I was writing about.  It is kind of interesting, but maybe because she is from the "old school" she tends to use "ustedes" alot.

From time to time she does tell us about growing up in Argentina.  I gather it was a very strict, regimented type upbringing.  You had to dress conservatively, etc.  It was a more militaristic society due to Pinochet being in power.

I will ask her about the wines, etc.

[bret]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I have a class tonig..., posted by Edge on May 17, 2001

and in argentina, they had those bastard militares from, oh lets see, i'm guessing here, but from the mid '70's to about '82 or '83. nasty bunch for sure.

after las malvinas/faulkands disaster, the military bunch got tossed and a man named raul alfonsin came to be the freely elected president, then carlos menem, and now some dim wit named de la rua.

if there are any brits still posting her, they might care to expand on the las malvinas/general belgrano stuff. or, maybe not!

but your right, it is a formal society, and i'm sure in her day, it was very strict!

bret

[michael b]

... in response to pinochet was chile!, posted by bret on May 17, 2001

Growing up in the 70's and 80's wouldn't make Maria an 'older' woman....perhaps he meant Peron?

[bret]

... in response to Re: pinochet was chile!, posted by michael b on May 18, 2001

oops! sorry if i misjudged her age, but 'edge' refered to her as 'the older women from argentina' in an earlier post. maybe he just meant older, like me maybe. in which case i apologize to the lady from argentina.

you may be right about the pinochet/peron confusion. the difference was, of course, that peron was not a military man and was, along with his wife, beloved by his countrymen, even if their ecomomic policies did bring the country to the brink of destruction and left the nation vulnerable to the rise of los militares.

bret

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: pinochet was chile!, posted by bret on May 18, 2001

Peron was a Colonel in the army when he started his coup, aint theat a military man?

[bret]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: pinochet was chile!, posted by Michael B on May 18, 2001

you are absolutly correct, sir!!! i relent.

[Traveler]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Dominican Spanish, posted by bret on May 16, 2001

vos is used frequently in Central America and southern south america.  it essentially takes the place of "tu" in informal conversation.  You would "vos" your buddies, "vos sos feo"

but you would probably "tu" your sweety.  "tu eres bella"

vosotros is used extensively only in Spain.

someone already gave a brief explanation on "vos"  but I just need to point out that "vosotros" is the plural of "vos" not tu.  "tu" was actually the original form of the formal .

vos also has its own verb conjugation:

vos sos     tu eres

vos tene's  (accent on the last e)   tu tienes

vos come's (accent on the last e) tu comes (accent on first e)

usted came from the very formal and respectful "su merced" (your mercy) it then was tranformed into usted.

[Edge]

... in response to VOS and VOSOTROS (Spain)  and su merced ..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

I prefer to stick to tú, so I do not have to learn another verb conjugation along with tú, me alegro it is not widely used.  But I am glad you guys explained it so well, if I do come across it.

[bret]

... in response to Re: very interesting Professores...., posted by Edge on May 17, 2001

uhh? you might want to check out a post a little bit farther down the line concerning 'tu' y 'vos' and with whom to use them!

the conjugations with 'vos' are not difficult at all to learn, and concern only the 2nd person, informal.

[Traveler]

... in response to VOS and VOSOTROS (Spain)  and su merced ..., posted by Traveler on May 17, 2001

dd