Prenupts?

[JunFan68]

Hey guys,
I am planning on having a prenupt signed before we are married.  This has nothing to do with Beatriz, I would require it of anylady that I were to marry.  I'm not looking to get into a discussion of "if you really love each other....blah blah blah".  But rather, has anyone had any experience with this with their Latin Brides?  I mentioned it to Beatriz awhile back but I'm sure we will have to address it again shortly.  What were your experiences??  Their reactions?

Thanks in advance,
Mike

www.sparhard.com/colombia.htm

[Michael B]

... in response to Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 21, 2001

I'm disappointed in you Michael. What you say you want in your prenupt (my real estate and business accounts before the marriage) is no more than the Texas law allows, even if you marry a local Dallas b**** who then hires the nastiest divorce lawyer in town.....what it says to Beatrice is "give up your home, your friends, your family, your job, in other words everything you have and even everything you KNOW, to take a chance on me to come to a strange country . . .and if (when) I get tired of you,  the most you get is your plane ticket back home (where you won't have your job anymore and will be shamed in front of your friends and family and will now be 'shop worn goods' to all the local men and a 'failed on her first attempt green card shark' to us AM looking in LA).

Michael, we've talked on the phone and I KNOW that's NOT what you MEAN to say to her, but I'm afraid that's what she (and most women in her position) might HEAR.

I know you said 'don't give me the "if you really loved her...." lecture', but don't insult (and hurt and frighten) this wonderful lady by bringing that up.

P.S. my ex DID hire the nastiest lawyer in town and the court RAPED me, so it's not that I'm 'Polyanna-ish' about these things. And don't take this as a flame, just as some well meant advice. It's one thing for a Donald Trump or Bill Gates to ask for a pre-nupt from Elizabeth Taylor or Cher, quite another for a 'moderietaly successful young man' (which puts you ahead of me in both catagories) to ask for one from a 'never married'.

[JunFan68]

... in response to Re: Prenupts?, posted by Michael B on Apr 22, 2001

I think she's cool with it.....

The only reason you got raped in court is because you ass wasn't protected like I'm talking about.  Oh yeah, but I'm sure you never thought it would ever come to divorce...

Not to insult her...but all she is leaving is her family, of which I am fully aware of their importance in her life.  She is not leaving a job, studies or anything...she is considered the one that is living the Camelot fantasy as far as her family is concerned...not trying to be rude, but what if she does go back?? (I fully intent to make this work)...what has she lost?  Time and time only.  As a matter of fact she would return with 10x more than she had when she left...

And I don't know what you mean by moderately successful, but suffice it to say that we are dealing with well north of 1/2 million......Thanks for the input

Later,
Mike

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 22, 2001

Aint no pre-nupt in all of Texas (probably in the whole USA) gonna protect you from the Child Support order, THAT'S where you get raped. (....of course if you two never have any kids....). But check with an ESQ. if you don't think HD and I are correct about she's not entitled to any of your assests that you had before the marriage, nor anything you inherit. And in Texas the marriage has to last at least 10 years before she's elegible for alimony. I was married for 16 years and she asked for alimony but didn't get any. At least that's in Texas, don't try moving to California, out there you have to pay 'palamony' if you take a woman to the same resturant twice (an exageration, hee hee, but probably not by much).

Anyway, (again, at least in Texas) no way she can get your stuff if there are no children, but no way you can protect your stuff if there are children, so what's the point in having a pre-nupt?

[Houndog]

... in response to Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 22, 2001

Hey JunFan, I told you the same dang thing about Texas Law. Da woman only gets half of accumulated wealth after marriage. And only then if she can out Lawyer you.

But on to my real message. I have heard of what is called a Marriage Contract that provides for both parties. There was a thread on the subject on the General Board I believe, ask Patrick if the General Archives still exist.

Anyway, the long and short of it was to write the contract in a way that wasn't one sided and selfish, meaning only addressing one persons concerns. It would go a long way to make a woman feel better about it if she is "included" in consideration, rather than excluded. And it would probably stand up a little better in court than a one sided, lopsided document.

This is the 21 century and I believe the days of one sided contrived contracts are close to an end and likely  won't stand up to legal challenge over the long haul.

Of course a good lawyer can beat a bad lawyer any day. Especially if the lawyer and judge play golf together.

Houndog

[JunFan68]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by Houndog on Apr 22, 2001

HD...I hear you..again!  And again, I will tell you I'm pretty plugged in legally. My attorney is a big client and good friend of mine.  He was head of the estate planning dept. for the most prestigous law firm in Dallas for over 20 years. If I want, not only can I protect what was mine before marriage, but I could also protect my ENTIRE income stream going forward if I so choose.  

Question:  how can you make a two sided agreement when only one person is bringing anything to the table? Look, I'm not trying to shut her out...I am going to be funding up an investment account for her over time so that she will be able to invest and get experience on handling finance here. And if the marriage lasts for ten years, I would be happy to vest her in my assets...I'm just trying to protect myself from the short term nightmare that I'm sure many have learned the hard way.  Nobody wants to believe that it could happen to them.  

The only reason I'm hard headed about this is that I have seen too many get 'bent over' by the American B#tches...I know, these girls are not the same in many regards, but remember, women are women no matter what country they come from.

"you never hear the bullet that kills you"

Later,
Mike

[curt]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 22, 2001

Talk to another lawyer and also get some English lessons!

[JunFan68]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by curt on Apr 22, 2001

Sorry, but I don't think so...

Mike

www.sparhard.com

[Houndog]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 22, 2001

Hey Buddy,

Again I'm just trying to get you to stop stressin over this so much. Bottom line is, they won't be able to get your stuff in Texas. Now trying to see that they get "ZERO".... might be another matter. Oftimes in divorce a judge can use a subjective method to define 'equitable'. Which means in your case the lady might get "something", however certianly not half or anywhere close, but not zero either.  A caveat for you...Adultery is still on the books as a crime in Texas...although seldom used...if one spouse is a proven Adulter...depending on which one...they could get a lot or nothing.

I wish I could remember the details about the "Marriage Contract" that was in the archives. Let's see if I can pull the gist out of memory.

I believe the basics of it was to put yourself in the womans shoes for awhile. Look at the emotional picture from her perspective for one moment. Then construct the agreement in such a way as to cover her concerns about her future consequences. Structure the 'rules' and benifits to allow her to be comfortable that you are not 'only' protecting yourself at her expence. For example...a clause might be included that if you cheat on her and get caught that you give her a cash settlement upon divorce. Or something to that effect. Inclusions that could go towards showing her that 'you' are commited to making a good marriage just as you want her to be.

My memory on this suject is far short compared to the original thread. If you could find it, I think it would be helpful as a different way of looking at the same situation. Many things in life can be percieved differently by the way they are worded and the perspective, and still achieve the same basic goal.

Regards, Houndog

[Wasp]

... in response to Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 21, 2001

Proceed cautiously. Make sure you choose your words very carefully.
I've read instances where this poisoned the relationship.

[JunFan68]

... in response to Re: Prenupts?, posted by Wasp on Apr 22, 2001

Hey bro,
Actually, we have had this discussion before....the same weekend we got engaged.  The word 'prenupt' was not used but we talked about what was mine before we marry is mine (ie family real estate, trading accounts, etc.) and we would share what came in the door after we are married.

I should have mentioned that in the first post....

THX,
Mike

[tommi]

... in response to Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 21, 2001

It's a little late in this case...however I would suggest the subject, for those who feel they need to address it, should be brought up as early as possible. Also keep in mind that pre-nups can be custom tailored. They're not always "What's mine is mine and what's yours is yours."

I would suggest adding provisions to a prenuptual agreement that would allow for some sort of financial support for the lady, should things not go as planned. Each and every prenuptual can be custom tailored to fit any given financial situation. Ask your attorney for details. A decent prenuptual isn't expensive but laws regulating them vary from state to state.

It's a much easier "pill to swallow" for the women  and it prevents the men from appearing selfish, etc...

The majority of ladies leaving their respective countries and families behind are taking a risk as well. Preparing for some sort of financial provision for them is only fair.

Good luck.

[Tai]

... in response to Prenupts?, posted by JunFan68 on Apr 21, 2001

JunFan/Mike,

I can tell you of two pre-nup situations that I know of....

1) A friend of mine(A) who owns a small company(approx. 60 employees) proposed to a lady from BAQ(accountant). He was nervous about bringing up the pre-nup for fear of losing her because he "knew" she was THE ONE(he was literally "sweating bullets"). But she didn't react at all to the pre-nup concept, and as far as I can tell everything is still going great with them.

2) Another friend(G) of mine owns a computer networking company and has substancial real estate holdings, etc. His lady(BAQ) was a doctor with a pretty nice stardard of living by Colombian standards. Before he asked her to marry him(and the prenup discussion) her eyes would light up every time he walked into the room...she would perk up in her chair at the sight of him. -Ever since the prenup was "explained" it has been a different ball game. They still married, he is happy, and she treats him very well...but she does not look at him the same way any more. The family and friends that saw them together "before" all notice the diference, it and has lessened the family opinion of him.

Ultimately what happens with your lady will depend upon your relationship, how she perceives it now, and what she perceives the pre-nup to "really" mean in regards to it. -By really, I am saying that like with many women, how they "feel" may or may not be how things are in reality but it will affect how they process and respond to a situation nonetheless. If she "feels" that the pre-nup means that you don't trust her....the drama is a comin'.

Since the ladies are leaving their families, friends, country, culture, and in some cases careers(which may be helping to support their families)....asking her to sign a paper that says "after you give up everything to be with me, if things don't work out you keep what you have and I keep what I have" is a sensitive matter and elicits reactions not easily anticipated. Expect further complications if there is a communication barrier.

In the end...ya gotta do, what ya gotta do.

Just 02.

Tai

[Michael B]

... in response to Re: Prenupts?, posted by Tai on Apr 21, 2001

Yes, Tai. I wish I could claim this as orginal, but a few months ago on another board somebody said "the most beautiful woman in the world is the one who's eyes light up when YOU walk into the room".

Sounds like your friend G. had that once and lost it. JunFan also has it right now, and I don't want him to risk loosing it. That's why I made the long rambling post above.