debit card thieves

[europete]

A warning to all!
Even though I have not been to Russia for about 4 years or Ukraine for 22 months, somehow someone got a debit card made up identical to mine and even had the PIN number to use, and in 3 days took out of ATM cash machines in Russia a sum in roubles equal to $3,966.00 US dollars. During the time they were taking money from my account from the ATM in Russia, I was basking on the beach in Florida. How they were able to do this I cannot figure out, for only myself and my bank know the right PIN code, and the last time I was in Russia I did not have the same debit card. Plus they were somehow able to withdraw more than twice what my daily limit for withdrawls is, which my bank allowed for the first time.
So be forewarned, some of these people are able to get information about your account and you could also end up with a problem like mine.
I think I will get the money back, but it will take a few months and some aggrevation of filling out forms to dispute the transactions, getting a new debit card and PIN code.
The funny thing is that that person using the phony card only used the card for 3 days then quit using it, even though there was still quite a lot of money in the account available.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

[This message has been edited by Cold Warrior]

Some ATM's are bugged, they are fitted with a skimming pad that grabs info from your magnetic strip and a pinhole camera to get your PIN while you're typing it in. The thieves are no more than 100 meters away monitoring you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3535473.stm

[Albert]

... in response to Bugged ATM, posted by Cold Warrior on Mar 7, 2005

As I have stated before, many of these scams are done by or with the help of the bank people in FSU or wherever.  I don't know the tricks, but probably pretty easy for the IT types within the bank to know how to set this up to electronically capture the card numbers and PINs.  And when there is little internal control or audits, it is a money tree to them.

Advice before was to only use ATMs in bank lobbies.  That is what I did, but when the bank personnel are in on it, there is no guarantee . . .  other than to not use the cards over there.

[Bobby Orr]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

Let them try to find it on / with you - better than getting your number and going to town!

[RfB]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

I am going to Russia in a few months (St Petersburg), so this topic is of great interest to me. My MIL has a debit card that we sent a few months ago, and I, and my wife intend to use it to get cash during the trip. Regardless if the daily withdrawl limit is exceeded, I have no overdraft coverage, or link to any another of my accounts, and also a strictly limited balance in the account. The cards that people have had problems with, was there enough money in,(or linked) to the accounts to cover the amount that was taken?

[Albert]

... in response to question, posted by RfB on Mar 5, 2005

Regardless if you have no overdraft coverage or no linked to any other accounts, you could still be liable under the fine print.  So read your agreements.

After my problems (which I was fortunately reimbursed for) with the debit card described below, I heard of the cards you could buy at stores etc., that have money put on them.  They are popular to give to college students, etc., by parents.  So I thought that would be a way to limit my exposure.  

But, when I read the agreement, lo and behold it said that I would be liable if some merchant accepted the card even when it had run out of money.  There was no linked account, but the bank would just come after me for the excess amount
and list it as a black mark on my credit report if I didn't pay up.

So those cards with supposed 'limits' do not do the trick either.

[MNKenr]

... in response to question, posted by RfB on Mar 5, 2005

In my case, no. I had a daily limit of $250, but more than that was taken. When I questioned my bank about that, they told me since Ukraine is on a different 'system' there was no way for its ATM to know what your limit or balance is. In fact for me I was overdrafed over $1000. I only keep at most $400 on the card, but they were able to take much more than that over two days.

Basically for some reason the Ukraine ATMs (and I am sure other countries are included here), have no way of knowing your accounts specifics. A withdraw is made and the ATM makes the charge to the card used for the Withdraw.

Just be careful.

Ken

[MNKenr]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

Same thing happened to me.

I have a debit card I use only for travel. It has a $250 daily limit. I used it on 3 different ATMs in Odessa (same ones I used from previous trips) for cash when needed. Shortly after I arrive home after one trip,  I have un authorized charges on my card in excess of $250. Due to boredom at work at the time,  I monitor and balance my check book daily so I knew the moment they made the first withdraw. They took out about $1800 before the ATM gave them an error message, and they stopped. My bank (Wells Fargo) was very unco-operative with the dispute because according to them they can not handle disputes originating from Ukraine. I spoke with a number of members from thier fraud department, and at the time I was uneducated on how to proceed. Thier reasoning was since it was the same ATMs that I admidted to have used in the past there was no proof that myself or someone I knew used the card. (even though I know for a fact no one else used the card)

They alluded that they had heard of this happening before, and all they would do for me is suggest I use no Credit or Debit cards during my overseas visits to non-western countries. Also since this was overseas and outside of thier banking network the card had no overdraft, or daily maxium limit as the ATM has no way of knowing what the account limit is, etc. They could have kept going to different ATMs but got scared off by the last ATM not working for some reason. (unrelated to the card, probably ran out of cash)

Beware as it is possible to clone your debit or credit card. Now if I need cash I will just Western Union it to myself while I am down there. It is mroe expensive, but better safe than sorry.

Also I think the problem is with debit cards only. I have not heard of any problems or clone being made from actual credit cards.

Beware when over there!

MNKenr

[Albert]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

Yes, I posted about this happening to me last June in Ukraine.  I still had my card.  I think some bank employees are in on this.  They can obtain your account numbers and pin numbers from when you use their ATM machines.  My bank reimbursed me for two days of daily limits on my debit card.  

The sad thing is that even after I post this info on various boards, some other guys always come on and say they have used cards for X number of times in Ukraine and Russia with no problems.  Well, I had used mine X times with no problems also.  But the X + 1 time was the killer.

Anyway, I have stopped using my debit cards while overseas.

[Streetwise]

... in response to debit card thieves, posted by europete on Mar 3, 2005

I know the feeling only too well. My wallet was stolen in France a few years back, and I did not discover it until a couple of days after returning home. I cancelled all the cards, but already they had been on a binge and a succession of trabnsactions came through which by the end of the week had amounted to 8000 GBP (approx 14000 USD) on my company credit card, and GBP.2000 (approx 3500 USD) on my personal card. Luckily I was covered in both cases but I still had to go through the same procedure, where the credit card company sends you the statements and you have to sign to state that they were not yours. In the course of this, I was able to see when and where the cards were used, mainly for quick big hits (there was a couple of casinos, a night club, and some very expensive shops on the list; they had spend over GBP.2000 in clothes on a visit to Burberry's in Toulouse for example. I called the international Switchboard and got the number for Burberrys in Toulouse abd using my best schoolboy French I explained the problem to the proporietor and asked for his side of the story. He was mortified, and he could actually remember 3 guys coming into the store to make those purchases. They were all Lebanese. What he could not explain to me was why he had accepted payment from three ragheads on a British Company Credit Card, issued by a British bank, and with a British cardholder name! The point is, the retailers don't care, it's all good money for them.  

It later turned out that they had used the cards at outlets where a manual swipe system was in use. The last transaction was started and not completed, so it appears that the retailer had an automatic card reader and the card was rejected, at which point they panicked. The modus operandum of these people is to use the card as quickly as possible (most transactions were within the first 48 hours) before you can cancel the card.

As for copying the card, that has also happened to me! (Maybe I really should change my handle?) It was in Rio de Janeiro, the hotel took my credit card and made a copy before returning it to me. After my return to the UK, same story all over again (they had used it at various outlets and racked up quite a large amount.)

The PIN thing is more difficult to fathom. You say that you had a different card whilst in Russia, but what about Ukraine? It seems highly likely that the card was copied and somehow they got hold of your PIN whilst you were in Ukraine, then used it in Russia. In the UK (and I am sure also in the USA) there is a problem with criminals who insert devices over genuine ATM's (even minute cameras) which can copy your card and record yor PIN. They have even been known to build and install their own "ATM's" for a couple of days on some wall in the city centre. The Eastern Europeans are not exactly backward in this respect, I recently saw a TV news item about the arrest of an illegal Romanian immigrant in London, amd in his flat they found thousands of blank cards with magnetic strips, and other material, intended for use in large scale credit card fraud.

I would be very wary of using ATM's in Russia and Ukraine, I used my credit card once in Ukraine two weeks back and after reading your story I will be checking my account today!!!!!

[Stan]

... in response to Re: debit card thieves, posted by Streetwise on Mar 3, 2005

Same thing just happened to my MIL and an old account of my wifes that we use just to send $$$ to the MIL. My wife has an old checking acc. that has a $500.00 overdraft protection on it and we only use it to send Mama $$$. Well, the last time we used the debit card was at an ATM in Simferopol for Mama to get some ching before she came here last April. In Dec. 04, we got a notice stating that our acc. was overdrawn $400.00 some and the bank was backing it up? When I called to ask what was happening and where the charges were made, it was at a bank Omsk, Siberia for cash withdrawls. Somehow they got a copy of Mama's card and our PIN?  Real scary part is that I've used that same ATM in Simferopol back in 03.
Beware!!!

[tbirdjoy]

... in response to Re: Re: debit card thieves, posted by Stan on Mar 3, 2005

The same thing happened to my in-laws in Simferopol also.  They have an ATM card that they use to withdraw money once per month.  This has been going on for 18+ months without a problem.  I keep a low $300 per day limit on this card.  An new bank in town opened up and they used the card on in late December.  About 20 days later someone started withdrawing money out of the account.  The card was being used at Citi Bank in Brooklyn, New York.  As we know there is a large Russian population there so I was not surprised.  They took about $300 out of an account that only had about $100 in it at the time.  My wife and I were in Mexico on vacation at the time so my bank knew for sure that we were not in NY at that time.  They refunded my money fairly quick.  The really madding thing is that this was an ATM inside a new bank that had obviously been rigged to record the PIN numbers or someone had installed a very small camera somewhere.  Anyway my in-laws will get a new card when my wife visits them in May and they will cover the keypad when the punch in the PIN.  However they won't be using that bank anymore.  It's a real damn shame when you can't even trust a bank.  Ah the joys of Ukraine!

Mark