Interesting story.

[Jack]

I thought I would post an e-mail I just received. This is from a client I had worked with about a year and a half ago and today I heard from him for the first time in probably close to a year. He wrote me quite a bit but this one story he wrote I felt was quite interesting so I thought I would post it. I am going to write him and ask if he can direct me to a photo of the lady in question. Here is his post,.....

Hello Jack, I have actually been living in vinnitsa for the past year. I learned the language..met some cool people and was dating a girl named taisa..Taisa is incredible lady and I love her to death..BUT she can NOT leave ukraine at all until her father retires in another 5 years, it puts her fathers security access at risk or some bullsh!t...I can not wait 4-5 years so we are just friends now....so to be very honest I am still seeking a lady and why I am writing you today. BUT..I have learned very much. it is absolute craziness...I could write a book all about these phoney ladies and the agencies are even worse it is truly amazing what some people will do just to eat and feed the family in ukraine...I actually met a lady that was MARRIED..I met her entire family, and she introduced her husband to me as IF it was her brother..the whole family was scamming men and attempting to get some stupid american to prove his sincerity by purchasing this girl a flat and a car in ukraine, and her husband actually sat there pretending to be her brother while she hung all over me and kissed me...to boot she is STILL on many sites and acting like she is husband hunting...there are millions of ladies just like her simply looking for dinner, theater, clothes, money, presents.....anything and everything it is MUCH to easy for any lady to get into agency and post photo and then sit back and let the fun begin.

[Bubba]

... in response to Interesting story., posted by Jack on May 28, 2003

This type of thing seems to be on all the boards, just a risk anytime you go overseas. Read the story calipro put on the latin board. He married a lady, she was single but tried to keep the boyfriend. He put s top to it before she got her visa.  Has this also happened on this board?

[DanM]

... in response to Seems to be on every one of the boards, posted by Bubba on May 29, 2003

Exactly! Most people have been burned by someone in their past. Why do you think there are so many cynical single AW around the age of 30? Its because some jerk or combination of jerks made them bitter. Same thing for guys.

Before you let a few bad stories about RW sour you on the search, just think about all the AW horror stories out there. Think of the domestic gold diggers and cheats.

Guys. Women are people and subject to all the good and bad traits as all human beings. I know its obvious, but it seems like a lot of people miss this point. There are good and bad ones. Whether you go to Russia or stay in the USA, this fact will remain true.

Safety does not exist in rommance. That is why trust is so important. Thats also why good judgement is very important too. Just try to make intelligent choices wherever you are and to learn from your mistakes. Also try to keep your heart open in case you are ever lucky enough to meet the right girl.

[DanM]

... in response to Interesting story., posted by Jack on May 28, 2003

Definitely not a fun story to read, but its a good thing for all the searchers to hear. Thanks for sharing. You might have just given some guy the caution he will need in his search.

There are a lot of great women out there, but its not a danger-free expereince either. I hope the lesson people take away from your story is to do your homework and be as careful as possible.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to Re: Interesting story., posted by DanM on May 29, 2003

Three Cheers!!!

[tim360z]

... in response to Interesting story., posted by Jack on May 28, 2003

Well,  this ground is so fertile for this con.  And for the perp...its just so easy.  Just a couple little white lies.  Like taking candy from a baby.  And some unsuspecting guy is fleeced of a couple of bucks for his delusion.   Happens all the time.  Happens here,  no doubt about that.  Money?  The very best of lubricants.  A nice read Jack.

[Ryan]

... in response to Interesting story., posted by Jack on May 28, 2003

Everything is not always as one perceives.  So much is at play when women like this cross their own morals to try and achieve some success in their life.  Many of us are searching in this part of the world because these women hold their morals so high.  Now that we are finding that more and more of these women are not as moral as we thought we start to lose hope and give up.  For some this is good it just goes to show that not all men are cut out for this endeavor.

I keep saying that you really have to know your weaknesses make common since choices, educate yourself and be willing to let your heart go get out on that limb.  You have to be  strong enough to make the experience work in your favor.

To some of us these types of women are what make this search so interesting.  For example put yourself in that guys shoes that is meeting this Ukraine woman and her family.  I am sure that in little time he had the feeling something was not right.  What choices did he make after he got those feelings?  Did he play it out maybe have a little fun of his own?  I would have had a blast with this type of woman, maybe even steel her away from this so-called husband of hers.  She would have to be worth the trouble but hey, anything could happen.  Or the guy could have just walked out build on this experience and make better choices.  

P.S. Jack are you losing some of that John Wayne swagger you had two years ago.

[Jack]

... in response to Interesting ... Why so?, posted by Ryan on May 28, 2003

Ryan, I must admit I have read, re-read, and re-read again and again to see if what I think I read, I read !

...."So much is at play when women like this cross their own morals to try and achieve some success in their life."......SUCCESS! Scamming to make a living is achieving some success in 'their' life !!  Only women with very low morals could think this way Ryan.

...."For some this is good it just goes to show that not all men are cut out for this endeavor."...... WHAT!!!  For some this is good. It shows that all men are not cut out for this endeavor?    I am literally speachless. I don't know what to say in regards to such an asinine statement.

...."To some of us these types of women are what make this search so interesting.".... WHAT!!!! To some of us these type scammer women are what make this search so interesting!!!!! RYAN, how many of us guys are looking to marry low life scamming women with little if any morals?  Huh, how many guys do you think are really looking for this type woman?

...."Many of us are searching in this part of the world because these women hold their morals so high.".... Well, this is true Ryan.

..." Now that we are finding that more and more of these women are not as moral as we thought we start to lose hope and give up"......Ryan! Very few guys are giving up hope because they got scammed along the way. There are a few cases, Shane Neff comes to mind. Shane got scammed so bad he will not even consider the thought of marriage to another Russian woman, and Shane will admit he made some major mistakes and ignored many red flags, as much his fault as anyone's. But the percentage of men who will consider going back to an American woman, even after being scammed by a Russian woman, is a very low percentage. My feeling is that most men, after truely getting to know a few good Russian women, after learning of there culture, grace, charm, class and that sexy little accent, can never go back to an American woman.  There are still the same high number of scammers and Russian women with low morals out there today Ryan as there was two years ago, well maybe a few percentage points higher. And that overall percentage of bad women is probably, "in my opinion" less than 13% of ALL the Russian women, HOWEVER we see a HIGH percentage of these scammers because most the guys, over 90%, are seeking these ladies from the same scam filled Internet and scam marriage agencies. We are seeing such a high percentage of scammers Ryan because the pool the majority of us are fishing out of has a high percentage of scammers in it.

....."For example put yourself in that guys shoes that is meeting this Ukraine woman and her family. I am sure he had the feeling something was not right. What choices did he make after he got those feelings? Did he play it out maybe have a little fun of his own?"........OHHHH, you  are one sick puppy you are Ryan!!

....." I would have had a blast with this type of woman, maybe even steel her away from this so-called husband of hers. She would have to be worth the trouble but hey, anything could happen.".....RYAN, and I suppose if you could have had sex with her in the half hour of meeting her you would have probably fell in love with her and married her!!!  You is oneeeeee sick puppy Ryan.

I re-call us having this little talk a couple years ago Ryan, you been smoking that high dollar stuff again before getting on the computer?

Now does that answer your silly @ss question...PILGRIM!

[DanM]

... in response to What the hell r U talking about!, posted by Jack on May 29, 2003

I will back you up on the point about AM still looking for a RW even after they are burned. I was burned very badly by a RW before I met my Russian wife. It took me about a year to get over the first one, but then I got back in the saddle and kept trying. I am not an exception either. Lots of guys get burned and then try again.

The idea of closing off interest to all women from such a large country because one woman harmed you is weak and not very manly. If these men would grow a pair and admit to the mistakes they made, then it would be much easier for them to move ahead after a bad relationship and find real happiness. I am not saying its all the AM's fault when he gets burned, but his choices do usually play a part in the problem. Unfortunately, these guys prefer to moan and rationalize their pain in a way that allows them to avoid all blame for the bad event.

For what its worth, this opinion also applies to the guys who want to blame AW for all of their romantic problems. Please. Just get a life. Women are women and there are a lot of good AW. Besides, AW do not have to be bad for you to feel justified in looking for a RW. If you like RW, just go with it and forget about justifying it to anyone. Its not worth your time.

[Ryan]

... in response to What the hell r U talking about!, posted by Jack on May 29, 2003

No I’m speechless!  Come now JACK, tell us the percentage of client that you “Get Involved in your Process,” that are well lets say, a little desperate and socially weak, or the percentage of your clients that are sitting in the back row of some Quixtar seminar dreaming about some pie in the sky lifestyle.  Tell me you don’t get money signs in your eyes when you find those poor suckers that are socially weak.

“Your Process,” is a little weak in today’s world.  You started your business on the notion that you might help provide a service and educate/organize a way for men to find, “The woman of their dream.”  At the same time you have soured many EU women by making them think they were like a piece of meat on the auction block.  Who is the sick puppy?  The only thing you spearheaded in this industry was creating the very atmosphere of “The Scam” that we have today, to your advantage of course.  You spew more percentages than anyone should ever believe.   JACK ya better get changing with the times old man your dot com is sinking faster and faster every spring.  It’s the women that are the important ones, maybe it's time to reverse the tables and evaluate some of your clients with the same criteria that you use on the women on your web site.

Jack, it's you and your geek clients that are the ones ruining this whole process for the rest of us.  Your are the one that brought over the easy money for the scammers.  Your so called "Service," has created this problem of scammer and I think it is SICK!  

[thesearch]

... in response to ////II^^^II////, posted by Ryan on May 30, 2003

Let me share one experience that I had with Jack. Indeed it is only one experience but I think that it will show you a side of Jack that you might not appreciate.

I talked to Jack about the strategy of placing an ad prior to a trip to attract some response from those ladies that were not in the agency circuit and wanted to know how that would be handled.

He said that there would be possibly many responses of which I might only be interested in only a few of those that might respond.

He commented to me about a side of the issue that I had not thought about. He said that some of these ladies might even be sending the only good photo that they might have of themselves depending on their situation. He was very sensitive to the position of these ladies and told me that it would be my responsibility to send back these photographs to the ladies that I was not interested with a response. He and his staff would handle that after I reviewed the letters. The cost would be merely the expense incurred by such activity without any markup. This was not a ploy to increase revenue as obviously I would be able to calculate the postage x the number of ladies. And, if he were to take money for such services and never followed through on such it would eventually come back to haunt him.

So, for you say that he does not have any respect for these ladies by viewing them as meat on an auction block does not fit from my experience.

Now I know that you two have your issues however, even though no one is perfect, I think you are going a bit overboard here in your attack. Now, Jack is the type to call things as he sees them and thus I will admit that he was not,in his first response to your post, being diplomatic. Perhaps that is why you chose to respond with an attack. Yea, it is human nature but, your view point (referring to your initial post) is unique and although it may be correct for you, I am not sure that the majority here would feel that they sit in the same camp of thought that you do. That is fine, it is not important.

[DanM]

... in response to Ryan, posted by thesearch on May 30, 2003

I had a similar expereince with Jack. He told me the same thing when I placed and ad through him.

[Jack]

... in response to ////II^^^II////, posted by Ryan on May 30, 2003

Well Pilgrim, I will try to answer your questions.

...."Come now JACK, tell us the percentage of client that you “Get Involved in your Process,” that are well lets say, a little desperate and socially weak, or the percentage of your clients that are sitting in the back row of some Quixtar seminar dreaming about some pie in the sky lifestyle."...........The percentage of guys I get involved with that are socially weak I would say is about 7 or 8%. But for every man there is a Russian woman somewhere for him. It just takes more of an effort and the man, though socially weak, has to be realistic in the type of Russian woman he is seeking. Right away I must get the idea into his head that he is NOT getting one of the super babes, or even a woman who might rate a 6.5. Once he becomes realistic then it's just a matter of trying to find several Russian women who might be compatible with his character.

The percentage of guys I deal with who are as you say "desperate" I would say is about 5%. Most the times these are guys who have just gotten divorced or just ended a long time relationship. These guys feel the desperate need to find anyone to fill the new void in there life. When I determine that a potential client has just gone thru a divorce or ended a long time relationship I will ask him to wait about 3 or 4 months before he does anything, try to allow time for the hurting to heal. Guys who often go over after just ending a long time relationship are so vulnerable to falling for the very first beauty they see. And it happens a lot.

The percentage of guys who I work with who are sitting in the back of some seminar day dreaming about some beautiful model type babe that he can call his own is 0 percent. Now sometimes I start working with a client and then find out they are this type individual. You are a good example of this type person. After I realized you had a lot of these type characteristics is when I told you that there was no sense in us working with each other. This was a couple of years ago and like many on here we hope that you will grow out of this phase one day.

......“Your Process,” is a little weak in today’s world."....... Oh, I beg to differ with you Ryan. My process is far from weak in today's world, quite the opposite. Guys who do not want to get scammed, guys who are patient and want to truly find the best Russian bride for them are using my process, and the many different variations based on the individuals, daily.  

....."You started your business on the notion that you might help provide a service and educate/organize a way for men to find, “The woman of their dream.” At the same time you have soured many EU women by making them think they were like a piece of meat on the auction block."......You are making a totally false claim here Ryan. Well the part about me starting a business that would offer an honest and reliable service as well as help to educate the men is true, but the part about me having soured many EU women by me making them think they are a piece of mean is totally in-accurate. I think you are referring to the good women who go to the large socials who feel this way Ryan.

Listen Ryan, if your the type of person who can only see one woman at a time, as you are, you feel threaten and dislike seeing the many men who do go to see more than one woman per trip. If done with class Ryan it is very easy to meet many ladies on a single trip. This cannot be said for the manner in which you meet women. You fall in love with a woman thru the letters you write, you have convinced yourself it is wrong to see more than one woman per trip. Well that's your personal feelings and belief's Ryan. And this is very much a personal choice. But just because a man see's more than one, or several ladies on any one visit does not make the ladies feel like a piece of meet. I strive for each man to treat each lady (provided she is a lady and not a scammer or woman with low morals) to be treated as the lady she is. And everyone of my clients will tell you the same. I will not tolerate any client who is not respectful of a Russian lady.

......"The only thing you spearheaded in this industry was creating the very atmosphere of “The Scam” that we have today".......I have tried to expose scammers, scam agencies and a Russian discussion board that doesn't allow the truth to be spoken Ryan, this is true. I was the second site to create a special scammers link in 1998, now there are many such sites. I receive notices of thanks everyday Ryan, everyday mind you, from men who have spotted the woman they were communicating with on my scammers link. I have paid the price for exposing these scammers, scam agencies and Russian discussion board that does not want the truth exposed. And guess what Ryan, today's men ARE becoming more educated as to the great amount of scam, and the potential to be scammed themselves.

......."You spew more percentages than anyone should ever believe.".....And few people have the knowledge or time invested to be able to speak so much from a percentage point of view. What is wrong with discussing percentages, based on my opinion over the past 9 years experience in seeking my own Russian bride and helping thousands of men in the process? Maybe after you see another three women over the next five years you will be somewhat of an authority for those guys who write letters and falls in love with one women thru letters and then goes to meet this one and only lady.

......" JACK ya better get changing with the times old man your dot com is sinking faster and faster every spring."......Wow, surprise to me Ryan!  Maybe you know something I don't know. I am busier now than I have ever been. Everyday of the week we now average 7 men in some part of the FSU. I remember when it was one or two men a month, then one guy a week, then one guy a day. Ryan, 7 guys everyday of the week, and these are guys who are for the most part meeting several ladies. I don't know where you are getting your facts or information as to my dot.com sinking faster and faster every spring, maybe you could share with us. I know I just returned last week from probably our most efficient spring group tour we have ever had.

......"Jack, it's you and your geek clients that are the ones ruining this whole process for the rest of us."......Really Ryan, I would love to her your detailed explanation of this. I think all my geek clients would like to hear this also from such an expert. Please eleborate.

......"Your are the one that brought over the easy money for the scammers.".......Ryan, can I ask you to go into details about this statement. Please offer more insight as to how I brought over the easy money for scammers? Ryan, I really think you have starting smoking the high dollar stuff again. Much of what you are saying here, as you were doing in the past, really makes no sense. Your just babbling on. But you are usually quite entertaining when you babble on and I think many would like to hear more of your reasoning and how YOU perceive how this industry and the pursuit for a good Russian woman is going down the drain.

Please enlighten us Pilgrim.

[Globetrotter]

... in response to (*/*), posted by Jack on May 30, 2003

Jack, he's just not a "credible accuser."  First scammed, then meetum and marryum.  Gee, what chances of a successful relationship would you give this guy?  Some of the most bizzare posts I've read have come from him.  He's a 35 yr old little boy who likes to look up girls skirts.  You're probably right about him smoking the funny stuff before he writes.  Don't waste your time.

[Ryan]

... in response to Jack, Jack, Jack................., posted by Globetrotter on May 31, 2003

Your the one that lacking credibility.  I was never scammed by some woman in the FSU I scammed myself.  Something that holds true for a good percentage of the woman accused of being scammers.  Most of them did little to anything to get put on the lists.  We have been over these issues time and time again.  It's guys like you that resort to name calling and personal character attacks to try and justify in someway that your approach is the right approach when the reality is that if this takes you more then 5 years to find a woman in the FSU then you shold probably move on to something closer to your league.