" On the lighter side "

[Zink]

... in response to When I married my Russian Bride..., posted by yoe on Dec 17, 2002

I don't have the dating experience that some guys do but I know a few Russians both here and there. I wouldn't say that they lie more than the people in North America that I know. If anything they lie to themselves less than we do. But they are very determined people who are willing to do what it takes to get what they want. If it's a man or a life in another country that they want, then they will do what is neccessary. If that means fooling a helpless foreigner they'll do it. I have noticed that Russians are more extreme in their emotions. Here we just don't care enough to get excited about much. Over there I met people who would do absolutely anything for a friend or do absolutely anything to an enemy.

As for what LP said he could be right about those girls. After all they were after something. But if you meet people outside of the MOB pursuit I think that attitude would be less prevelant. I'm always surprised at how many people go over there and only meet people involved in the MOB industry somehow. I went and lived as a Russian and met people just to be friends, both men and women. Course I was always a little more interested in meeting the girls.

[LP]

... in response to My take on this, posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2002

...only talking about those involved in MOB. The other FSU people I know are in general very nice folks. But remember that there is some inherent mistrust instilled in them from the Soveit regime. White lies are nothing to them and it's not much of a jump to tell bigger ones when they want something. (Which is all the time. ;-)

I did not mean to generalize, this is all only my personal experience. I was refering to my experiences with those seeking a mate abroad and those I remain in contact with. Some of them are dealing with other A/M now (lol, maybe some of you) and with what they've told me I can only come to one conclusion: The feelings they express are inflated. Not malicious, only inflated. Since many do not speak English well that makes sense to me. I fail to see how anyone can develop a truely meaningful relationship over a long distance with limited personal contact and using translation but thats just my opinion. Then being forced by the Gummint to marry such a person quickly, well, I guess thats just crazier than I am.

Speaking generally now, the bottom line to me is risk/reward or cost benefit analysis. For the risks involved, the rewards are pushing the limit for me, especially when the same can be had at home with less risk (and if we remove some variables, less effort.) Anyone who says all relations are a crap shoot is missing the point completely. Now understand, I'm speaking more of the odds of success vrs the risk, not the quality of success if achieved. Depending on how badly a guy wants that reward will drive his assesstment (and acceptance) of the risks. That's been demonstrated time and again, and not only in this business. But the POB is an added facter that causes men to wish for the best and ignore the sometimes blatant reality of their situation. Witness Davey...

I was only pointing out that there seems to be a rash of problems lately, or more are being fessed up (which is what I suspect). Anyone watching on the sidelines would be foolish to blow it off. After all, if every failure were openly reported I think there would be a completely different outlook taken by MOB men. (lol, than again I could be wrong. The "it won't happen to me" thing is pretty potent stuff.) Then there will always be dreamers and risk takers no matter what the odds, I don't fall into this group. To each his own I guess. Life has taught me success comes from planning, knowledge and proper risk analysis/management. In the end, I feel the odds in this game pretty much suck. Or at least aren't worth the risks to me personally. Of course, like Yoey, I'm a little biased. It's obviously different for others who will readily accept the risks for a variety of reasons, some downright strange. No problem, if you can accept the time, it's ok to do the crime. That's my opinion (or as Robo would say...;-) and I'm stickin to it.

You sure be 100% right about R/W and their emotional swings, when they're good they're very good. Frankly, I miss that a little at times. Of course when they're bad.....

[robobond]

... in response to I was...., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

n/t

[yoe]

... in response to I was...., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

I do feel that social circumstance has created somewhat of a dochotomy in the RW. I do believe we can generalize-to a point. And most of all I agree that for the type of guys that go over seas to get a wife, to go over seas to get a wife is the purest form of Russian Roulette to date. If they have been unsuccessful here and are going just for a wife-I put my money on the shark every day.
For me-I had no fantasy about finding my dream bride. Actaully my goal was just to find a partner in crime. My wife has always known that we are to have common goal and work together to have more that we could have individually-synchronized if you will. She also knows that she is free to go anytime she wishes and I will not 'send her back' as many say.
One bad thing did happen though. I was not expecting and it had not happened in many many years. It could have been the death of me..............I fell in love with my wife....
So I cannot say anything but expect nothing but be ready for anything!
Joe

[Zink]

... in response to I was...., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

When they're bad they leave scars. I know. I've been there. The physical scars are easy to deal with, it's the ones we don't see that give us trouble. I'm with you on the gummint thing too. In Canada we don't even have a fiance visa anymore. How's that for sensible? Now the woman has to marry me before she can even see my home! That's a set up for disaster in my opinion. I've never met a more secretive group than Russians. They don't lie but you rarely get told the whole story.

I'm still not convinced that there are more risks involved in this. I just think that more people ignore the warning signs when it's an intercultural thing. It is more difficult, no doubt. But really what can RWs do to us that AWs(or CWs) can't? The risks are the same, it just takes longer to read what's really going on.

I actually understand and agree with most of your point of view. I'm just trying to balance it a little. I have a pretty low opinion of the human race in general but I know there are a few good ones. I've seen some of the worst that this country has to offer. I'm not a strong believer in the "Golden USA", or Canada in my case, where all is happy, warm and fuzzy.

And as far as dear Davey. I wouldn't blame Russia for any of his problems. I think they were there long before his first trip east.

[LP]

... in response to Re: I was...., posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2002

...we understand each other. It's true that they can cause only slightly more grief than a domestic chick if it goes Tango Uniform. But I'm talking about the chances of it going sour in the first place. I just can't believe that: 1) A long distance cross cultural relationship with a language barrier and 2) limited time together before marriage, holds the same chance of success as one developed over time in a common culture. One thats more under the control of the participants.

It's true that the people involved make a difference, I can't deny that. But all else being equal, it's only common sense that the odds of success would seem less. (Forget for a moment the price to pay for failure.) If one could get most of what he wants at home why would one stack the odds like that? And if one feels he *can't* get it at home, why would one enter this fray the way most men do? Me thinks POB, plain and simply. And POB is potent enough for a "normal" guy, imagine it for the socially challenged. And if it does go sour there is the greater sense of frustration that might occur because of all the extra one went through to get it abroad. (Again, look at Davey for both examples).

Risk verus reward. I'm just amazed at how some guys approach it. I understand their motivation, I just don't understand how all the rational thought in dealing with it can be discarded. Especialy if it's looked at closely. Knowledge may be power, but sometimes it's better to be in the dark I suppose. Still, what one can't see (or won't see) *will* hurt one in these cases. And the hurt can be plenty big....

Yo each his own, we all have the right to make our own beds as we see fit as long as we're willing to lie in them. Sorry you got bent in the past, if anyone deserves a break it oughta be you. Seems to me at least you've demonstrated some wits during your pursuit.

[don1]

... in response to I think..., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

You make some good points that I can't argue with :

(Long distance) + (Limited Time Together) + (POB) = High Risk .

Add in a few more factors ( such as cross-cultural relationship , language barriers , etc...) to the left side of the equation ; and yes , you're pushing the envelope . And for some of us , the 'It Can't Happen to Me' factor is just as strong as the 'POB' factor . I think in some cases , the 'It Can't Happen to Me ' and 'POB' variables are so strong that they prevent an accurate or realistic ( to use your words ) risk assessment / risk management . We all have our own reasons ( or rationalizations ) for our assessments and acceptance of these risks ; but for those who are ' socially / emotionally challenged ' , maybe the 'POB' and 'It Can't Happen to Me ' factors are going to outweigh or distort any perceived risk assessment / management abilities ...just a guess....

 

[Zink]

... in response to I think..., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

"To each his own, we all have the right to make our own beds as we see fit as long as we're willing to lie in them." That about sums up my views on life. Do what you want but don't come crying to momma when it didn't work. I did get burnt. And I walked into it with my eyes open. I still miss my first RW very much. I had more fun with her than I ever did with anyone else. But if we had moved in together one of us would probably have been killed. Most likely me because she was more vindictive than I am.

Some people figured I was in huge trouble just by travelling to Russia. I looked at it this way...
What is the worst that could happen?
1. I could lose my money. No big deal because I can always earn more.
2. I could lose my heart. I've lived alone so long I figured it was worth the risk. And heartaches will heal.
3. I could lose my life. I've nearly died more times than I want to think about. Sometimes it was because my stupidity and sometimes it wasn't. I know the reaper will catch me some day and I'd like to live a little before he does.

But that said if I had any clue about what I was really getting myself into I don't know if I would've have balls enough. Ignorance is bliss. I learned enough the first time that I'm happily muddling along again. I went to Russia because the girls there actually wanted to get to know me. I didn't question their motives at first. I knew part of it was the fun of writing to a foriegner.

I still think that it's the people involved that make the risks, not the situation itself. For those guys that are lacking in certain social skills, they'll have trouble wherever they are. But it is very easy to get wrapped up in the mystery and fun of an international affair. Better men than me have made mistakes because of women. "POB" is very powerful. I've felt it a couple of times myself. I think I've overcome it but maybe I'm just fooling myself.

I think more people should look into the internal aspects of the relationship than the external. By that I mean question yourself. Who am I? What do I want and need? What kind of man am I? And then ask of the lady. What kind of woman is she? What are her real reasons for being with me? Why do I want to be with her? Are we compatible? Can we communicate? To me these are more important questions than where she lives, or how she will like my country. "Know yourself and know your enemy and the battle will be won".

Ah well, LP, you can't protect a person from themselves. Smart people often make dumb mistakes. Especially when women are involved. All part of being a man.

[yoe]

... in response to Re: I think..., posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2002

I believe a man who does not at least attempt a dream should lie down for the eternal sleep.
I constantly am reminded of my many 'ideas' and 'projects'. Mostly by people who have tried nothing at all. My greatest 'failures' are more successful than many people's greatest success. So I will alwaus say go for it-but be man enough to take it on the chin. Don't do a Trent Lott ...hahahahaha. Can you believe that guy?
Good Luck and Good Post
Joe

[Zink]

... in response to carpe diem ma frere!, posted by yoe on Dec 18, 2002

I don't know who Trent Lott is. But otherwise I agree with you. You never know what'll happen until you try. And as long as your still able to dust yourself off and get back up you haven't failed. The only real failure is to never make the attempt.

[robobond]

... in response to Re: carpe diem ma frere!, posted by Zink on Dec 18, 2002

"I don't know who Trent Lott is."

He's a man immersed in trying out a shoe leather diet.  It's not really a question of whether he will get thinner or not --that is already happening!  The real questions are: (1) How "light" will he finally get?  & (2) Will he choke to death on the laces in the process?

Bob

[KenC]

... in response to I think..., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

LP,
You said, "I just can't believe that: 1) A long distance cross cultural relationship with a language barrier and 2) limited time together before marriage, holds the same chance of success as one developed over time in a common culture."
-
I think too much is made of the "cross cultural" thing.  Most guys going over are of European background and there really isn't too drastic a difference.  Quirks and oddities usually based on economics, yes, but not huge differences.  The language barrier is a HUGE deal though.  Any guy that doesn't have a common language with his woman is toast.  The time limit is also a HUGE deal in my opinion.  As I have said in the past, the biggest hurdle to overcome is motivation.  What is the motivation of the guy and the girl?  If the majority of the AM are motivated to fill the wife vacancy and the majority of he RW are motivated to unass the FSU, you have a disaster waiting to happen.  Now add a language barrier, some cultural differences and a restriction on time together, it is a wonder that ANY of the marriages work out.
-
Lest someone think that I am a hypocrite, I think that RW are the sh!t.  The AM have to have their sh!t together before going over and not be so damn desperate.  Meet em, enjoy em, get to know em, get to know em well and then maybe fall in love (with no skipped steps).
KenC

[thesearch]

... in response to I think..., posted by LP on Dec 17, 2002

LP: "But I'm talking about the chances of it going sour in the first place. I just can't believe that: 1) A long distance cross cultural relationship with a language barrier and 2) limited time together before marriage, holds the same chance of success as one developed over time in a common culture. One thats more under the control of the participants. "

LP you left out one of the nails (I know you did not forget) that can seal the coffin. And, I think this one is the icing on the cake so to speak. And, if I like this kind of icing, I think many are right there with me.

Many guys expect to come back with younger and more beautiful than they can attract at home. Obviously the greater the discrepancy the greater the risk. So, in addition to the risk factors mentioned that are inherent to this venue guys actually choose to make their odds worse by going for what beauty/youth the market will bare. But, once these fine ladies are here, the carrot is no longer in play like it was in the courting phase and after two years it is absent.

These women become aware that they compete with the AW very well for men's attention. They realize that they can attract younger and more successful then they settled for. In this sense, there is a race against time --- for the relationship to evolve into true love/respect before the bell strikes midnight.

But heck, why would a guy do this if he did not come back with something better?

[LP]

... in response to Re: I was...., posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2002

[yoe]

... in response to My take on this, posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2002

or is that hookers?

Joe
there is no universal formula here. But, there are cultural similarities.
Joe