I withdraw all of my prior opinions...

[robobond]

on this subject.
________________

"MOSCOW (Oct. 27) - Moscow's chief physician said Sunday that all but one of the 117 hostages who died during an operation to free hundreds of captives from a city theater were killed by the effects of gas used to subdue their captors.

The Interfax news agency quoted Andrei Seltsovsky as saying that one person died from bullet wounds during Saturday's assault. It was the first time that a Russian official identified the cause of death of most of the victims.

The gas left many hostages unconscious, and they had to be carried from the theater suffering from symptoms of poisoning. Authorities have not said what was in the gas.

An anesthesiologist, Yevgeny Yevdokimov, said the fatal effects of the unspecified gasses were exacerbated by the weakened condition of the hostages, who had spent 58 hours in captivity under high stress and with little food or water, Interfax reported.

Seltsovky told Interfax that 646 people were in the hospital, including 150 who were in intensive care wards and 45 who were in very serious condition. He said the dead included 63 men and 54 women.

Moscow hospitals on Sunday began releasing some former hostages, but most were being kept for additional treatment.

Outside one of the hospitals treating survivors the wail of sirens mixed with the cries of relatives as doctors released some of the 750 who were rescued.

Anxious hostage relatives waited for word on their loved ones after a special forces raid on the theater Saturday killed most of the hostage-takers. The freed captives were taken to hospitals, most of them suffering from the effects of knockout gas that was pumped through the building before it was stormed by Russian special forces.

Some hospitals posted complete or partial lists Sunday afternoon of those being treated, but information remained fragmented. A U.S. Embassy spokesman said its workers were trying to find which hospital one of the two known American hostages was in.

Fifty of the rebels who seized the theater were killed - several with bullets to the head, apparently as they lay incapacitated from the gas. About 750 hostages were reported to have been freed in the operation.

Irina Ramtsova waited outside the black iron gates of City Clinical Hospital No. 13 with pictures of her father, Fyodor, a trumpet player at the theater seized by armed Chechen rebels Wednesday.

``We keep calling and calling and there is no information,'' she said.

The family last heard from him when he called on his cell phone during the 58-hour siege, and said he was seated next to one of the bombs the rebels had threatened to detonate. Official hot lines have been no help, she said.

Like Ramtsova, many were unsure where their relatives were, and came because the bulk of the survivors needing medical attention - some 320 - were at that hospital.

``They are hostages again,'' one of the relatives shouted to the armed guards behind the gate.

In the afternoon, a few survivors began leaving in a cold, light rain. A crowd of frantic relatives and jostling journalists were part of the chaos. Sirens blasted from passing emergency vehicles.

The scene was more tranquil at another hospital, directly across from the raided theater.

Among those let out of that clinic, Hospital No. 1 for War Veterans, was Georgy Vasilyev, the producer of ``Nord-Ost,'' the musical that was in progress when the theater was seized.

He recalled the ordeal as a ``bardak,'' Russian slang for complete chaos. He said he had tried to talk to the gunmen, but with little success, except for one of the female hostage-takers who gave him a prayer written in Arabic, suggesting that he read it to purify himself before death.

Russian special forces poured the knockout gas into the theater and moved in around 5:15 a.m. Saturday.

Nine hostages died because of heart problems, shock or lack of medicine, Deputy Interior Minister Vladimir Vasilyev said on Saturday.

The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted Vasilyev as saying none of the victims died from gas poisoning.

The Dutch Foreign Ministry said early Sunday that a Dutch citizen, Natalja Zjirov, was among those hostages who died. No other deaths among the 71 foreigners among the hostages were known.

President Vladimir Putin, who visited some of the injured Saturday, declared Monday a national day of mourning. As the troops surrounding the theater began to withdraw, people put flowers around the site.

The chief Moscow prosecutor, Mikhail Avdyukov, said Sunday that three people have been arrested in Moscow on suspicion of helping organize and carry out the raid, the Interfax news agency reported. The prosecutor's office could not be reached by telephone for confirmation or details.

The attackers, 18 of whom were women come of whom claimed to be war widows, burst into the theater during the performance, some of them with explosives strapped to their bodies.

They mined the theater and threatened to blow it up unless Putin withdrew Russian troops from the rebellious region of Chechnya.

Russian forces pulled out of Chechnya after a devastating 1994-1996 war that left separatists in charge. In fall 1999, Putin sent troops back in after rebels based in Chechnya attacked a neighboring region and after apartment-building bombings that killed about 300 people were blamed on the militants.

In 1995 and 1996, rebels seized hundreds of hostages in two raids in southern Russia near Chechnya, and dozens of people died in both cases, many of them killed when Russian forces attacked the assailants.

10/27/02 12:25 EDT    

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press."

[Nico]

... in response to I withdraw all of my prior opinions..., posted by robobond on Oct 27, 2002

One of the hostages was Sandy Booker of Oklahoma. There was an article saying this man lived through the ordeal.His wife, Svetlana Gubareva of Kazakhstan was also a hostage in the ordeal she appearantly also lived. However her 13 yr old daughter died in the hospital. I can't find the article now but here are two articles,the 1st of which names Sandy Booker and his wife Svetlana as a hostages and the 2nd of which has Kazahk officals telling of losing a 13 yr old female citizen (under paragraph "405 Still Hospitalized")

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/10/24/38633.html

http://www.msnbc.com/news/824951.asp

[davet]

... in response to Does anyone know this man?, posted by Nico on Oct 28, 2002

Sandy Booker was reported dead to the US embassy in a late news release.

[robobond]

... in response to I withdraw all of my prior opinions..., posted by robobond on Oct 27, 2002

"The Slaughter in Moscow

In the eight years that they have wrestled over control of Chechnya, the Russian government and Chechen rebels have descended ever deeper into a hellhole of brutish behavior. The two sides reached a new low over the weekend in their deadly showdown at a crowded Moscow theater that a band of heavily armed rebels had seized earlier in the week. The number of dead hostages and rebels is still being tallied, but it is already abundantly clear that the rebels and government forces once again disgraced themselves. The Kremlin and the guerrillas should come to their senses and settle a conflict that has left thousands of civilians dead and shamed Russian and Chechen leaders alike.

The latest outrage was provoked by Chechen separatists on Wednesday evening when they took control of the large theater and the more than 750 people assembled there to see a popular musical. The Chechen fighters — properly described by the Russian authorities as terrorists — threatened to start killing their hostages Saturday morning if President Vladimir Putin did not begin withdrawing Russian forces from Chechnya, an ethnic enclave in southern Russia that has been a bloody battleground since Moscow tried to crush the Chechen independence movement in 1994. The Kremlin initially responded to the seizure of the theater by trying to negotiate a peaceful resolution, then assaulted the complex early Saturday morning.

As in so many other violent incidents in the Chechen conflict, it appeared yesterday that both the rebels and Russian security forces badly miscalculated. The Chechens, as has been their custom, relied on terrorism to advance objectives that can only be achieved through political negotiation. Their willingness to murder civilians, including reports that they had begun the killing of hostages before dawn on Saturday, left the Kremlin with no choice but to try to free the theatergoers. The methods chosen, however, seemed to be drawn from crude security manuals written under Soviet rule. As they began their assault, antiterrorist teams pumped a powerful disabling gas into the theater that ended up killing at least 116 hostages. The government compounded the horror by failing to provide adequate medical care at the site. The resulting mess and effort to gloss over it were reminiscent of clumsy Soviet attempts to deal with domestic crises like the Chernobyl nuclear accident in 1986.

By now, the litany of depraved conduct in this conflict almost defies belief, including the rebel seizure of a Russian hospital in 1995 and a Russian town in 1996 and Moscow's indiscriminate attacks on Grozny, the Chechen capital, and other population centers. Mr. Putin rode to power by launching a second war against the rebels in 1999.

The international war against terrorism, and strong evidence that some Chechen rebels have received training and support from Al Qaeda, has emboldened Mr. Putin to equate his struggle against the guerrillas with America's campaign against Osama bin Laden and his followers. While there are common elements, the Chechens have some legitimate grievances about a long history of harsh Russian rule. Mr. Putin should recognize that he cannot end their insurrection through force alone. If the United States wants to be helpful, it should not give Mr. Putin a pat on the back after this debacle and tell him we are all fighting the same enemy.

10/28/02

copyright 2002 The New York Times"

[Robert D]

... in response to update (2), posted by robobond on Oct 28, 2002

It is very easy to say what you should not have done when you have 700 hostages and killers that you KNOW will and can kill them.   What is not so easy is saying what you SHOULD do.  From what we have seen in New York, the Cole, two US official buildings abroad, not to mention Russia's experience with bombing of shopping centers, and the murder by terrorist of many innocent people, as far as I am concerned, there were before the military attack 700 dead people, but with some luck 600 have their lives handed back to them and most importantly, all the terrorist are DEAD and there was no negotiation with them.   I suspect we will never again see a building taken over by terrorist in Russia, unless public opinion softens Russian reslove to be as ruthless as the terrorist.  The only thing they can ever understand.  This is a lesson we should learn and learn well.  

Robert D.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: update (2), posted by Robert D on Oct 28, 2002

........from New York, the Cole and so forth.

Apparently you know little of the "background" in all this. The Russians have been the aggressors for over two hundred years against these people. I do not condone the terroist acts, but neither do I think it makes Russia right just because they are bigger. I offer you this link so that you may educate thy self and then come back and we will talk about who the terrorist "is". Funny to me that they are trying to link old Osama to this thing now. Just paint some spots on that jackass and tell them it's a Appolossa, they'll buy it.

http://www.idis.com/ChouOnline/native.txt

[Robert D]

... in response to Much different situation......., posted by Lynn on Oct 28, 2002

Well I am familiar with the conflict. (political science degree double major history- masters degree and later law degree)   I am a constant student of history.  It is my hobby.
    But having said that, I pass no judgment on Russia's treatment of what they call their "breakaway republic" any more than I would expect anyone to comment on Louisiana or Texas deciding to leave the union and what that may involve.   I seem to recall we had a bloody civil war in this country some years ago, so frankly I do not feel right standing in judgment on anyone on how they handle internal policy at this point.
   But having said that, at this point I could care less if there is a Osama connection or not.   I do not think anyone has a right to take hostages and kill them no matter how just their cause may be, and no matter what war may be doing to their homes.  But I do find it interesting that in Palistine, in New York, the Cole incident, and many others, there is a strange similarity between the tactics of terrorist.  There are other similarities as well.
   Since 9/11 and even before, my thoughts are more immediate and closer to home.  I can not think of a better way to respond to such things than with force.  We are in many ways in the same boat with the Russians, soon other parts of Europe will again be attacked and they too will then be less concerned about being nice to people with no regard for human life.
   Finally, the message has to be sent to people like this that to do such things does nothing but harden the hearts of those who may have at one time had sympathy for their causes.  At this point, I will never feel interested in judging the actions of countries who have to deal with this sort of activity on a regular basis.   And I accept no responsibility for any of it.

Robert d.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Much different situation......., posted by Robert D on Oct 29, 2002


I understand quite well your response, being that your profession apparently is in law, in that you will not take a stand or allow yourself to be held responsible.
 As far as Chechnya being a "breakaway republic", are they the only one? Why not such a fuss over the others? $$$$$$$$, need I say more.
"I do not think anyone has a right to take hostages and kill them no matter how just their cause may be, and no matter what war may be doing to their homes."
If what I've been reading is correct, "one" person was killed by the terrorists, the KGB (Opps, did I say that?) killed the rest with their so called rescue attempt. I would dare say that they cared more about the building than the people inside.
 Funny you should mention Palistine, how about a different view of that:   http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/           especially go to the bottom left side link to "Resistniks" , then scroll down to #144 and #274, click on document then cancel Hebrew text, the English version will come up.
Apparently you did not read the link I posted above.

"And I accept no responsibility for any of it."
Nobody wants to accept responsibility for it, but the fact is we all have supported the war against these people, wheather you knew it or not. And this was not the first time, heck our government even funded the Bolshevik Revolution.  
As I said several times, I do not condone their actions, but before everyone starts saying "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", a little investigation is in order.

Regards,

      Lynn

[BURKE89]

... in response to Much different situation......., posted by Lynn on Oct 28, 2002

Hello Lynn,

You're correct, in your assertion regarding Osama. This heinous act is no more tied to Osama, than the current regime in Iraq is.

You're also correct, that Russia has been fighting on their southern flank (Caspian) for over 200 years. Were they the aggressor? Yes, I would say so. Did Britain have designs on the region, as well? Most certainly; as evidenced by their incursions in Afganistan, let alone the Crimean War.

So here's the cruch:

How does the Russian "occupation" of the region, differ from our own Manifest Destiny? Should Russia vacate this economically vital region? Should we give up regions of our nation, because they were acquired in warfare against an inferior enemy? In this post 1991 world, do we want Russia in the Caspian? Given the other options, I say yes.

Best Regards,

Vaughn

Btw- That was very touching, what you did for that Russian soldier.

[Lynn]

... in response to Food for thought!, posted by BURKE89 on Oct 29, 2002

Hey Vaughn,

Maybe some here don't like my taking the stance of "devil's advocate", but often I think the human condition makes us tend to look at things onesided.

"How does the Russian "occupation" of the region, differ from our own Manifest Destiny?
It is in fact a near mirror image of what we (meaning the settlers and the US Army) did to the native Americans. The major difference being that the actual truth of the situation could easily be   discovered in this day and age. The settlers were often to close minded to even try and understand these "savages" and the government was more than willing to try to exterminate them. Who were the savages??? And on that point I offer this: http://www.barefootsworld.net/lovepeople.html

"Should Russia vacate this economically vital region?"
It doesn't appear that they have ever really had control of it and I doubt they ever will. Wouldn't a negotiated peaceful working agreement work better than brute force?

"Should we give up regions of our nation, because they were acquired in warfare against an inferior enemy? "
I will reserve comment on that, except to say that laying all national, economic, political thoughts aside, do you feel in your heart that we (meaning our forefathers) were just in their treatment of their "neighbors"?
"In this post 1991 world, do we want Russia in the Caspian? Given the other options, I say yes."
I have to disagree here. If Russia controlled those reserves and Arab oil were shut off for some reason, do you think for one minute that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation?

Regards,

    Lynn

P.S. How did you like the attachment that I sent you? I saved that one a few years back from another source.

[BURKE89]

... in response to Chewing......., posted by Lynn on Oct 29, 2002

Hey Lynn,

Hmm... you're making me think too hard this early in the morning. -smile-

"Who were the savages?"
Well... there's a middle ground here, in my opinion. I, for one, can't justify our (European) actions entirely. Yet, native American history is full of tribal conflict; with a barbarity closely resembling our forefathers military exploits, during our western expansion. Conflict will ensue, whenever vastly divergent cultures come into contact. Right or wrong; that is history, especially considering the time period...

"Wouldn't a negotiated peaceful agreement work better than brute force?"
Yes, but is it possible? I dont believe so; with the ethic hatreds so deep and rampant, then throw oil into the mix... Most treaties, have more in common with pie crusts than honorable agreements among civilized nations.

"If Russia controlled those reserves and Arab oil were shut off for some reason, do you think for one minute they wouldn't take advantage of the situation?"
Yes, I imagine they would. I was looking at this situation differently, however (Caspian oil vs Gulf oil). My thoughts were of pontential options, playing one hand against the other. If Russia were to pull out of the region, highly unlikely, wouldn't we then have Islamic hegemony over both regions?    

Thank's for the article!

Regards,

Vaughn

[Lynn]

... in response to Semi-digested..., posted by BURKE89 on Oct 30, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

Vaughn,

On the first two points about history and treaties, I do see your point of view. But I, am a optimist and I believe in the term "where there's a will there's a way" on both accounts.

Heck I would much rather that the gummit give national lands to the Native Americans than the UN.

"If Russia were to pull out of the region, highly unlikely, wouldn't we then have Islamic hegemony over both regions?

On that I really don't think that would be that much of a problem, except for the fact that we have been funding the war against the Noxci.

Sorry for the delay in reply, been real busy.  

Lookin for frost on the punkins in Dixie tonight,

Lynn

[wilmc]

... in response to Re: update (2), posted by Robert D on Oct 28, 2002

I agree.  Our leaders must not negotiate with terrorists.

It is a terrible loss of innocent lives but can you imagine the carnage if the "special forces" had tried an assault without some disabling agent or if the terrorists had been able to set off the bombs.  Or would the "second guessers" have preferred that Putin wait until the executions began.

My only criticism would be that the medical teams were not given any warning BUT what if somehow the terrorists could have been warned by any alert to the medical teams.

As for acknowledging the type of gas used.  I imagine that if it were revealed than any possible future use would be compromised.  Furthermore, we are only speculating that there is an "antidote."  I for one am willing to accept that after suffering from 3 days from extreme stress, lack of food and water and limited physical activity any population composed of mixed ages and health conditions of nearly 800 persons would suffer many casualties whatever the agent  used, tear gas, etc.

I glad that the leaders from the west are giving their support to President Putin.  He had to make a most terrible decision and his conscience will forever bear the burden of it.

Whatever has transpired in Chechnya there was no excuse or justification for this act of terrorism and I for one am grateful that it was crushed.

[Lynn]

... in response to Re: Re: update (2), posted by wilmc on Oct 28, 2002

[This message has been edited by Lynn]

"Whatever has transpired in Chechnya there was no excuse or justification for this act of terrorism and I for one am grateful that it was crushed."

As I said in the above post, I don't condone the terrorist actions they took. Just what do you consider enough provocation? Two centuries of war, oppression, genocide, exile, poisoning, starvation, murdering women and children?   Who are the terrorists??

"I glad that the leaders from the west are giving their support to President Putin. He had to make a most terrible decision and his conscience will forever bear the burden of it."

Conscience??

The US has been supporting this for a long time. Slick Willie send something to the tune of 2.1 billion to Russia to aid the war effort. What the hell is in it for the US?  OIL.. Sleep well tonight knowing that your tax dollars have been going to support these money grubbers trying to gain control of the transcaucasus region. What's a few hundred thousand lives, anyway?? Remember it's not terrorism if you are the big guy.  Don't that make you feel all warm and fuzzy???

[hockeybrain]

... in response to update (2), posted by robobond on Oct 28, 2002

I appreciate the update, but when you quote the NY times please be aware of their liberal bias.