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Author Topic: I withdraw all of my prior opinions...  (Read 11451 times)
robobond
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to I withdraw all of my prior opinions..., posted by robobond on Oct 27, 2002

[This message has been edited by robobond]

"MOSCOW (Oct. 28) - Russia on Monday mourned those who died when troops stormed a theater seized by Chechen gunmen, but the Kremlin was criticized for the gas it used to disable the rebels and which killed more than 100 of their captives.

The government has so far refused to name the gas which special troops used to knock out the rebels on Saturday morning before they could detonate explosives strapped to their bodies in the Moscow theater they seized three days earlier.

Moscow's top doctor Andrei Seltsovsky said 646 hostages were still in hospital -- 150 in intensive care, 45 of them in a grave condition.

Flags were ordered flown at half mast and light entertainment was canceled in the city of more than 10 million. Wednesday's Champions' League match in Moscow between Spartak Moscow and FC Basel was canceled as a mark of respect.

Passersby placed fresh flowers and candles in plastic glasses outside the theater where the hostages were held for three days by the Chechen suicide squad. Fifty, or nearly all of them, were killed in Sunday's assault.

President Vladimir Putin apologized within hours of the predawn operation on Saturday for proving unable to save all hostages.

But initial relief was replaced by doubts about the mysterious gas as the death toll mounted over the weekend.

''They poisoned us like cockroaches,'' a woman quoted her daughter as saying in Kommersant daily.

One doctor expressed frustration at being powerless to help survivors.

''I saw no gunshot wounds at all. Those who died had swallowed their vomit or their tongue or their hearts had stopped,'' he told the Nezavisimaya Gazet daily.

''If only we had known beforehand! If they had told us that we would be getting large numbers who had lost consciousness or heart failure, it might have been a bit different.''

QUESTIONS OVER RUSSIA-EU SUMMIT

Question marks were also raised about a Russia-European Union summit scheduled for November 11 in Copenhagen.

A Danish text television service reported that the meeting could be moved to Brussels because of protests by Putin over a Copenhagen meeting by Chechen exiles planned for Monday.

Early reports said around 10 hostages had died, suggesting the operation was more successful than had seemed possible.

But then the death toll hit 67, then over 90, before reaching 117 on Sunday. Only two died from gunshots.

Asked what had killed the other 115, Seltsovsky said: ''The effects of the gas exposure.''

The injuries and deaths followed the seizure of a Moscow concert hall on Wednesday night by armed Chechen rebels, bent on forcing Russia to withdraw from their republic.

For Putin, the rising toll was an uncomfortable reminder of two other tragedies which have blighted his term of office.

In August 2000, the nuclear submarine Kursk sank after a torpedo exploded on board, killing 118. Putin was widely criticized for a perceived failure to act decisively then.

A helicopter was shot down over Chechnya in August with a similar number of deaths, despite Putin's repeated claims that the Chechen war, launched in September 1999 -- months ahead of his election as president -- was all but over.

It was after guerrillas shot two hostages dead early on Saturday that crack Alfa troops stormed the theater, first pumping in the gas. Officials said the gas was to stop women fighters seated among the 750 hostages detonating explosives.

The storm troops then took on the remaining rebels in the rooms and corridors of the second floor in close-quarter combat.

Televised scenes of desperate relatives clamoring outside hospitals for news of their loved ones and being pushed back by police will also have done little to boost Putin's image.

AN ANESTHETIC?

A failure to identify the gas -- and claims that it was similar to anesthetics used in surgery -- also reinforced a long-standing image of Russian secrecy and disinformation.

Dr. Peter Hutton, head of Britain's Royal College of Anesthetists, said he knew of no medical anesthetic gas that could have been used in the way the gas was used in Moscow.

''It's almost certainly something that's developed, owned, and used only by the military,'' he said.

Paul Beaver, of the London-based security and defense consultancy Ashbourne Beaver Associates, said the operation would be considered a success in military terms, defined as fewer than 30 percent casualties.

But he said most military gases have antidotes and it may have been a flaw in planning if the attack was launched without making sure there was enough antidote to treat freed hostages.

Russia now faces possible strains in relations with its partners as it continues to portray its Chechen policy as an antiterrorist operation along the lines of the U.S.-led coalition against the al Qaeda network in Afghanistan.

On Sunday, the Foreign Ministry summoned France's ambassador to complain about a pro-Chechen rally in Paris.

REUTERS  Reut03:43 10-28-02

Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited"

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don1
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to update, posted by robobond on Oct 28, 2002


Here is an excerpt taken from the abc news website :

MYSTERY GAS

While Russian officials face growing questions about the knockout agent used to break the Moscow theater seige , Kyle Olsen , ABCNEWS consultant on biochemical warfare , spoke to ABCNEWS' Carole Simpson about BZ , a banned chemical weapon .

C.S.:What kind of gas was it that may have been used in the raid on the Moscow theater ?

K.O.:Our best guess is that it was something like a chemical weapon that was designed not to kill , but actually to incapacitate enemies .

C.S.:A lot of the hostages died and they blame it on the gas . Does that surprise you ?

K.O.:Well , this gas was never intended for use against people in confined spaces like a theater . This was designed for use on the battlefield , in open air , and so it's entirely possible that the Russians , if they chose to use a chemical like this , may not have fully calculated the effects against that audience .

C.S.:Does the United States have such gas ?

K.O.:We experimented with BZ in the '50s and '60s . We even weaponized some of it for a while , but we don't have any significant quantities . In fact , both Russia and the United States are committed by treaty to destroying their stocks of chemicals like BZ as well as nerve agents and others .

C.S.:Is it a violation of International Law that Russia used this gas ?

K.O.:Well , the Russians are very , very specifically not stating what the gas was . If it was BZ , though , yes , they are in violation .


You can read the rest of the article at :

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/russia021028_gas.html

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Apk1
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: update on 'Mystery Gas', posted by don1 on Oct 28, 2002


Per the Moscow Times:

"The mysterious gas that was used to subdue the hostage-takers but also killed 116 of their captives was an opiate, a chemical related to morphine, the U.S. Embassy said Monday."

"Such substances dull or kill the senses but can also cause coma and death by shutting down breathing and circulation."

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tfcrew
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: Re: update on 'Mystery Gas', posted by Apk1 on Oct 28, 2002

This is a smoke screen. No pun intended.
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wsbill
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to I withdraw all of my prior opinions..., posted by robobond on Oct 27, 2002

Being shot or blown to bits with ball bearings and nails.

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Apk1
Guest
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to I withdraw all of my prior opinions..., posted by robobond on Oct 27, 2002

It was funny to me that the Russian version of this outcome was completely different than the western reporting agencies...but not unexpected...

My mother-in-law in Moscow told my wife this morning that she heard all hostages survived...the sleeping gas was a great success!!!  

Now I am seeing that it looks like the military used a nerve gas agent considered to be outlawed, not a sleeping gas agent.

My wife still sees the russian web sources reporting only two people died from the "sleeping gas", one was a heart attack...the rest were taken away still asleep...

If it was nerve gas, it may take awhile to know the full consequence of thier actions....maybe years to see what damage was done to those that survived, but we will never know the entire story.

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robobond
Guest
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: I withdraw all of my prior opinions...., posted by Apk1 on Oct 27, 2002

n/t
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BarryM
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« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: I withdraw all of my prior opinions...., posted by Apk1 on Oct 27, 2002

[This message has been edited by BarryM]

From what I'm reading, it's an untested combination of anesthetics and other disabling chemicals. In my opinion, they may not have had much choice in going in with the sleep agent. When terrorists start killing hostages, that is the time to move in with a raid. Since the terrorists were intent on demolishing the building with explosives, the decision to use gas was made. It's a matter of the lesser of two evils.

-blm

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Rags
Guest
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2002, 05:00:00 AM »

... in response to Not nerve gas..., posted by BarryM on Oct 27, 2002


According to what I have read...some of the surviving hostages have said that the terrorist had not started killing anybody (other than the woman killed at the beginning of the siege). The miltia just made this up to justify the timing and urgency of the raid.

This doesn't sound too far from what I would expect.

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