RW facing American reality

[johnnydudeman]

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

The "American reality" that you faced is that you were given an OPPORTUNITY to work at a job and make some money.  Whereas the "Russian reality" would probably be that it would be more difficult to find a job, and once you did find a job, you would work for less pay.  That's the reality.  Here, you are an immigrant with no American work history and, still, you were given the OPPORTUNITY to work and make money.  That's pretty good.  But, for whatever reason, you were not right for the employer and so you were let go.  That's too bad

As you know, you can quit without notice and I imagine you can be fired without notice during your "probation period."  And as far as firing you with no notice; it makes sense.  Which employer wants an employee in their office who will be disgruntled because they think they are being fired unfairly?  The disgruntled employee would be in a position to "sabotage" the office while they are still there.  So, if they are fired, it makes sense to ask them to leave right then and there.  

I find it revealing that say you did not get along with your employer.  Why do you think they would want you to be there day in and day out if you do not get along well with the boss?  Employees in a small office who do not get along well with others just cause tension and friction.  You should know that an employer can hire anyone they want, and an employer in a small office will usually want to hire an employee who (1) can do the job well, AND (2) will get along with the others in the office.  That keeps things feeling comfortable and running smoothly.  You said "I felt that my boss didn't like me because I wouldn't come running when she was showing the pictures of her ultrasound and that type of things."  You should look at yourself and understand why she did not like you or you working there.  Its easy to blame others or "the system" whehen things go wrong, but oftentimes "the answer lies not in the stars, but in ourselves."  For whatever reason, your boss did not like you (and you knew that) and you were fired.  That's an "American reality," but how is that different from anywhere else?  I would NEVER get my employees involved in my personal life, but I DO want my employees to have a "team oriented" attitude and to get along well with me and with others.  I would also never hire an employee who says bad things about a former employer because that's a bad sign of things to come.  In every case where an employee had said bad things about their prior employer, I found out that they had a hard time getting along with others and they blamed the employer for that and not themselves.  Like it or not, but here's the "reality": the employer signs the checks, and the employer sets the terms.  As Don Rozini said to Don Corleone in The Godfather, "after all, we are not communists."

So your "American reality" makes sense, and I am sure it is better than the "Russian reality" where there are LESS OPPORTUNITIES and for LESS PAY.  I have a girlfriend in Moscow who also has impressive credentials and is who certified to teach Russian and English and who graduated from Moscow State University with honors (it seems everyone here graduates from Russian universities "with honors") and, before she graduated, she told me she believed there would be no real opportunities for her.  Well her "Russian reality" is that she just graduated in July and she has been looking, but still has not found a job.  The Russian reality in finding a good paying job is clearly more bleak than the American reality, but I would imagine that once you DO find a job, it is the same here as it is anywhere: Do a good job and get along and stay...do a bad job or don't get along and go.  Its simple.

[MikeC]

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by johnnydudeman on Aug 30, 2002

By American reality I didn't mean all the aspects of American life, what I meant was how phony those women in the office were, do you really think they cared for their boss? I got the impression that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well. Is that democracy?  Getting along with others is one thing but show fake interest and talk ugly behind her back is another, I don't do that.

Do you know the definition of opportunity?
My EAD card states that I have the RIGHT to work not the opportunity. I am a legal alien who is going to become a citizen, I am the same immigrant as you or your family who once came to America unless you are a native Indian.
I think you have a negative attitude bordering on prejudice.
You say that YOU would NEVER get your employees involves in you personal life, so she wasn't right doing that, but you still want to believe that she was right.

I also don't understand what you are doing on this board since August last year if you think that just being American makes you so much better than Russians, your profile says "searching", I don't know what you are trying to find then, evidently your being American and reading about "less pay" in Russia gives you some kind of confidence that is missing in your life otherwise.

Regards.....

[thesearch]

... in response to To Johnnydudeman, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

MY MY but you are a little defensive aren't you. I do not feel you were being attacked but given good advice that took some time to put together for you. You were not being accused of anything but advised to also look at yourself and see if any blame lies with yourself. This is sound advice.

You: I got the impression that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well. Is that democracy?

Me: The issue of Democracy was already addressed. Humans will be humans all over the world regardless of where they live and certain traits can be seen everywhere. So, it is about humans, of which you are one, that you complain about. It is not America. A Ukrainian lady told me that if she were to keep her job, she would have to give sexual favors to her boss. She told me that this is not an uncommon problem in Russia and Ukraine. We do not have that problem here in the USA to any degree like she described.

Yes you do have the right to work but no one has the obligation to hire you so, it turns out to be opportunity unless you work for yourself.

You: I think you have a negative attitude bordering on prejudice.
You say that YOU would NEVER get your employees involves in you personal life, so she wasn't right doing that, but you still want to believe that she was right.

Me: He did not say she was right. You are just being defensive here.

You: I also don't understand what you are doing on this board since August last year if you think that just being American makes you so much better than Russians, your profile says "searching", I don't know what you are trying to find then, evidently your being American and reading about "less pay" in Russia gives you some kind of confidence that is missing in your life otherwise.

Me: So, you do not like his advice so now it is appropriate to attack him Hmmmmm. It seems to me that you just might (but how would I know) be very sensitive and react when you feel you are being attacked even when you really are not or you have an attitude. Both will not serve you well. So, if either applies, deal with it. Or, maybe how you translated what he wrote did not come out right. Your English seems excellent to me however. Good luck to you in finding a job. Welcome to America

[johnnydudeman]

... in response to To Johnnydudeman, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

You say your negative reference to "American reality" is not to ALL aspects of American life," just to your "American reality" of "phoniness" and your stated impression "that in order to be successful you have to kneel to your boss and there is no way you can get recognition by just doing your job well."  Well, guess what?  You do NOT have to do this.  You are wrong.  And this negative opinion you have is NOT an American reality.  Its just YOUR misguided impression of "American reality."  

The workplace is also not a "democracy" as you ask.  Democracy is a form of government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them.  It is probably a good idea not to mistake your job for a democracy.  I am sure your next boss will advise you that your job is NOT a democracy.  Also, showing a "fake interest and talking ugly behind her back" is not an "American reality" as you suggest.  That's just petty office politics, which unfortunately, I think, happens everywhere.  We, however, do not have to sink to that level in order to be successful.  

Regarding your "right to work."  That is great!  Maybe you can take your "EAD card" to your next job interview and show them that you have the right to work.  They will probably say "yes, you have the right to work...just somewhere else."

I also think your response shows your hostility and quickness to blame others as being prejudiced against you, rather than looking at yourself and seeing your own shortcomings.  Your quickness to attack and to blame others shows a lot about your character and your mindset. Maybe this is why your boss did not like you?  

I don't think the lack of opportunities and low pay in Russia is a good thing and I am not happy about it.  Its terrible, but it IS a "Russian reality" and I mentioned it to contrast the new opportunities you have here in America (which you fail to recognize) with the lack of opportunities you had there.  But I think you know this already.  And I think it is offensive when you have so many unfortunate problems with your "Russian realities" and then you come here for better opportunities and then you complain and criticize our "American realities," especially when you don't even seem to understand them.  That's just bad form.

Your response was, however, "spunky" and that is good.  Many employers like that quality in an employee.  It would probably be a good idea for you to channel some of that spunkiness and find a new job which you like and in which you are liked.  That would be good.  I wish you luck in this pursuit.

[MarkInTx]

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Sounds like a discrimination case to me...

Not that you would want to work with that woman anyway... but have you discussed your case with a Labor attorney? For that matter, if you were at a hospital, there should be a representative in HR for you to speak with...

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

They knew of your accent when they hired you. So, how can they then later fire you for it?

Do they have record of missed calls, misunderstood messages, or people complaining?

I really think that if you go to HR, they can do something.. at least they should give you a letter of reccommendation...

[johnnydudeman]

... in response to You Case is..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

You wrote "they knew of your accent when they hired you. So, how can they then later fire you for it?"  That statement kind of begs the obvious question as to whether they REALLY fired her for her accent or whether they fired her for other reasons.  You missed your own point.  Probably, they did NOT fire her for her accent because they had an awareness of her accent when they hired her.  So...they must have fired her for other some reasons.  Make sense?  Sometimes people make excuses for why they were really fired.

And she was at her first American job for less than 90 days when things did not work out, and now she says she has already contacted the EEOC to complain?  Wow!  That's scary.  Sounds like the "American reality" she is looking for is not an opportunity for a job but an entitlement to a job (and streets paved with gold?), and she's gonna report it to the EEOC and to this board if she does not get it.  Is this a cultural difference between Russians and Americans?

[MikeC]

... in response to You Case is..., posted by MarkInTx on Aug 30, 2002

I talked to a person from Equal Employment Opportunities Commission. She asked me if they'd send a request to the center would this center name the reason as my accent. I told her I don't know. This was actually why I tried to get a written statement from them but they wouldn't give it to me. So EEOC are going to send me a qestionnaire.

This is a really small center, my boss is the office manager, the one who does payroll, she is the person who hires people for the office.
No they don't have any written proof they my accent prevented me from successfully performing my job.
I wonder if there are any other russian women that had the same problem.

[Charles]

... in response to Re: You Case is..., posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

As an attorney who specialized in civil rights cases, I can tell you that you don't have it in writing, although that is preferable.  However, the fact that they refused your request for a written reason may help you in the long run as they failed to take advantage of a request for a non-discriminatory reason for your termination. Based on their refusal to provide a written reason, your statement is sufficient to file a charge of discrimination based on national origin discrimination.  This will force the employer to articulate a non-discriminatory basis for their action.  I agree with the practical sentiment expressed by others that this is probably not a great place to work but there is no harm or cost involved in filing an EEOC charge.  It is only when people take advantage of the remedies that are available to them that positive change occurs.

[hockeybrain]

... in response to RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Do not take it too hard.  People get fired in the US and never find out the real reason.  I know this sounds hard to do right now, but take the experience as a positive learning experience.  Go out and get a better job.

[MikeC]

... in response to Re: RW facing American reality, posted by hockeybrain on Aug 30, 2002

Yes, you are right I am looking for another job. But it's hard to take this experience as a positive learning one. I feel that it's not fair. If I started it all over again  I wouldn't do anything different, and the accent or a manner of speaking should be the last thing they'd mention as a reason for dismissal, they claim that they are an equal opportunity employer and isn't it funny they would give me any notice of dismissal?

[thesearch]

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Everything happens for a reason. You can not force things in life and lets say it was just not meant to be that you remain there. The key point as mentioned before is to not take it personally.

There are so many explanations as to why this happened. From what you have written a couple jump out at me as being possible.

Since your boss likes to socialize and you did not take such an interest in such this might actually have been threatening to your boss. Someone who is more work oriented versus socializing makes those who socialize uncomfortable because your presence and lack of participation actually subtly makes them feel like they should not be socializing but working like you are. And, maybe her boss will start to notice also. Eventually you could get her job in time. The best thing to do is get rid of you so that the socializing is not threatened.

I have a question, how attractive are you compared to your lady boss? If you are more attractive, women can be threatened by that especially if you are more work oriented than her. She most likely was threatened in some way if you were doing a decent job with the work. In other words, you may have gotten laid off because of positive qualities that you display and nothing to do with any negative. It happens all the time when women are in control.

Yea, Life is not fair - get used to it.t

[Rags]

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

I am sorry to hear about your first expirience of dealing with an AW as a boss. I wish that I could offer some insight as to what you could have done differently but I don't feel that there is anything that would have helped. Your boss was obviously envious of you (gee, I wonder why?) and nothing that you could have done would change the way that you were treated.

Another unfortunate thing is that it appears that you had a probation period (90 days?) in which they can dismiss you without giving a reason. If you were a union member, you might have some small chance of getting your job back or at least making them give you an honest reason for your dismissal however, if they didn't want you there, they would make you so miserable that you would leave on your own.

Please do use this as a positive expirience and move on to something better. It may just be fate moving you in a different direction. You have proved to yourself and others that you can handle this work enviroment. Take what you can (like a good job reference) from this job and move on.

[hockeybrain]

... in response to Re: Re: RW facing American reality, posted by MikeC on Aug 30, 2002

Fairness and employment do not go hand in hand.  We like to think everything in society is fair.  I know I do my best to be fair when hiring at my place of employment.  However, the reality is that in many places if a job opens up someone from the inside, or a relative of someone on the inside or someone without the best qualifications is selected for all sorts of crazy reasons.  Often when someone is let go who performs the job well it is because they do not get along with the "team."  However, they are let go on all sorts of dubious performance / bogus objective related items.  Life just is not fair - otherwise, why would great guys like us have the luck we have had with girls, both here or in Russia?