Article on Modern Russian Marriages

[ScottFA]

Here's an article about the breakdown of the institution of marriage in Russia.  It's an eye-opener.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/26jul/russianwoman.htm

--Scott

[wilmc]

... in response to Article on Modern Russian Marriages, posted by ScottFA on Aug 2, 2002

An update from THE ECONOMIST

http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=1259838

This article, especially the last half, describes the plight of single Russian mothers.  It reminds me of what single mothers in the "West" experience.

I have visited Moscow 3 times in the past 3 years.  (I know Moscow is not representative of all of Russia, but..)Two observations:
1. There are more similarities between Americans and Russians than there are differences.
2. Russia is in the midst of an exciting but traumatic transformation.

[Zink]

... in response to Article on Modern Russian Marriages, posted by ScottFA on Aug 2, 2002

But did you catch the date? July 1926! I think the info could be a little out of date.

[robobond]

... in response to Interesting, posted by Zink on Aug 2, 2002

Before I even considered the 1926 publication date, I forwarded the article to a friend with a brief note:

"It seems that American problems with divorce/child rearing/custody, etc., pale in comparison with the mess in today's Russia.  If it were not for the fact that these people have lived in what we would consider to be a political/social/economic chaos (mess) for at least the last 100 years (i.e., they seem to be quite used to existing in an advanced state of instability and have a high degree of tolerance for it - very hardy souls),  I would suspect that they are in the process of committing mass cultural suicide.  Further, I wonder "what" will be left when a few million of their smarter & more attractive women are successful in emigrating over the next few years.   This is a well written article."

Are the general concepts in the article really that out of date?  I don't think so.

[Zink]

... in response to Re: Interesting, posted by robobond on Aug 3, 2002

Maybe not. But Russia today isn't quite the same as when you had your friendly, neighbourhood commissar dictating everything. I've met several families in Russia that are closer than anything I know here. They have their share of divorces too, but that isn't the entire story. Like with anything else, take it with a grain of salt. Anyhow I was just pointing out that the "modern" Russian woman part was actually from 80 years ago. It was interesting reading.

[Jack]

... in response to Re: Re: Interesting, posted by Zink on Aug 3, 2002

As a society on the whole, Russia and Ukraine family's are a LOT closer than those here in the states.

I was, and still am, amazed at the bonding, love, care and closeness that these family's show. Although we here how bad Russian men are, there are a great many wonderful and caring fathers and husbands. The women, the mothers, of these countries deserved to be recogized as being truly great women. The women of Russia and Ukraine are the glue that holds together the family, culture and traditions.

I guess I could go on and on about the closeness of these family's but I think every guy who has been over there see's this. For the guys going to the FSU for the first time I think witnessing such must be one of there more pleasant surprises.

[Zink]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Interesting, posted by Jack on Aug 4, 2002

I get tired of hearing about the much maligned Russian Man. Yes, there are many @-holes there. Kind of like anywhere else. But there are some very good guys. Most of them get married young and are out of the market quickly. I really think that more men involved in the MOB/international dating thing should make friends with some Russian guys. Who knows these ladies better? The attitudes I've encountered weren't what you might expect. A lot of RM have incredible respect for their ladies. But they also won't put up with a lot of the BS that men here often do. I'm not sure that I would place the blame for divorce 100% on the men's shoulders all the time.

A few months on vacation there and I'm starting to act like an expert(lol). There's a lot to know about Russia and I'm just starting to learn. It's a large complex country. I just hope that people who are planning on going there for the first time don't swallow all the propaganda hook, line and sinker.

[BrianN]

... in response to Re: Re: Interesting, posted by Zink on Aug 3, 2002

Isn't so much of the rise of the independent Russian woman per se, it's the fall of the militaristic economy that was built up by the soviets during the cold war... ie, ww2 to the fall of the wall.  The men were the real thing there, and they were the champions of the states cause, had a good thing going (for what it was worth to them anyway), and all was well until all of the military funding started drying up.

Step out to later times, and you've got half the old people that want to go back to the old system, (because they lost everything and will never get it back), and then the younger half and a half... (the second half never knew the old system), that look towards more freedom and capitalism as it exists now, and just evolve as time goes on.

The FSU is still in a transition.  It will take 20+ years at least before enough of the old (soviet die-hard) people die off, and younger people grow up and learn to prosper under their system as it exists before there will be any significant changes in the fsu bride market.  

If you've been to the fsu and seen the younger set (yuppies) working and all, 10-20 years from now imagine their families, and children that will grow up to emulate them. Things expand, and will grow on their own.  I wouldn't be suprised if the FSU "bride" market as we know it now, started to dry up or not be so popular 20 years from now because the men will have learned a new system the hard way, and adapted through evolution to get what they want.... (the women too).

I really don't think that most FSU women want to come to the usa and leave their home and families.  Honestly, I believe that they'd rather have a gaggle of american men, (with our work ethic), over there to court, marry, work and live with them at home, the home that they know, just as a good Russian man would.

It's the abandoned military economy that created this mess over there (with the women) in the first place.

Just my opinion.

[WmGo]

... in response to My opinion on this, for what it's worth...., posted by BrianN on Aug 4, 2002

Brian,

There is no country in the world where the current political,social and economic situation can be attributed to one thing or factor. Russia has a very long and complicated history. It is the totality of her 1000 year history that is the driving force for what we see today, especially her 70 years of despotic totalitarianism. In terms of the economic situation, there can be no doubt that the near instant stopping of the war economy has had a depression effect. But, as noted, there is much more to it than that. It is the whole collapse of the communist system that exerted total control over every facet of life, and what has been left in its wake.

For example, just think what the standard of living would be if the workers were paid fair wages by the big factories whose owners practically stole them from the government for pennies on the dollar. The owners pay themselves tens and sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars a year and pay a worker $50 a month. What irony - Russia needs organized labor unions to negotiate better wages on a collective basis!

Thankfully, the President of Russia has been pursuing very sound economic policies including the introduction of a 13% flat income tax and land privitization. These changes will have trmendous positive economic affects in the future.

Hopefully Russia has learned its lesson that a war economy is not permanently sustainable by them or anyone else in the world (look our Saddam!).

Regards.

WmGO

[BrianN]

... in response to Re: History for what it's worth.., posted by WmGo on Aug 5, 2002

I agree with you on this, however, when I said military economy, take it hand in hand with communism (I should've used your wording on this instead).  Wherein, communism is a very greedy form of governance which fosters "I want more control over more - and everything"; ie, vis-a-vis use of the military/political strategies to achieve their desires for a warm water port for years, (among others).  Socialist ideals in relation to the defense contract industry, where every company was virtually owned by the government, (no competition which is why their sht don't fly or blow up worth crap), no competition in private markets which stifles better product developments, etc... all of it.  

It was people's dependence on the government which fostered the screwed up situation that exists now imo.

About unions?  haha!  I almost cracked up.  Yeah, in a way that may be the only way to fight it for now, but the long term effects of the cure could be worse than the disease itself.  (Look at who we got running OUR unions! lol!).  However, it would give their version of the mafia something better to do with their time!

Cheers.

[Zink]

... in response to My opinion on this, for what it's worth...., posted by BrianN on Aug 4, 2002

My opinion is that they are bouncing between extremes and have been for some time. The communists over controlled everything and now there is almost no control. Most of the older people I met had some nostalgia for soviet times. Good or bad at least it was stable. You knew what to expect. But they also realize that it wasn't perfect.

Most of the people I meet and talk to in Russia are in their early 20's. They are still young and full of hope for the future. They don't know anything about the old ways and are just trying to learn how to cope with today's realities.

I haven't found any women that were desperate to leave Russia. Some toy with the idea and would for the right guy. Russia is a tough country but I think for the majority of people it isn't the house of horrors that the media often portrays it as. Just my opinion based on what I've seen.

[BrianN]

... in response to Re: My opinion on this, for what it's wo..., posted by Zink on Aug 4, 2002

I talked with quite a few older folks that actually seemed to resent the yuppies as they exist now.... it was what they knew most of their lives and they want it back.  This seems to be a realistic "collective" opinion, because it appears that the pensioners have been literally abandoned with 50.00 a month (or less) retirements and hardly anything to enhance their lives, much less a reason to exist.

What suprised me the most, were the way that the younger set appeared in public, in business.  Nothing but 100 percent dedication to their work.  A shoddy looking westerner like myself, (without my coat and tie), I was merely dismissed as a lost traveller most of the time, or maybe I should say... not beneficial to their business interests at present, on their terms.  Of course their customer service attitudes seem to need some work, but, it's better than the treatment I got by the (muslim terrorist wife) woman employee of United after I landed in DC from SVO.

My fiance's brother, (42 yo),  was quite a suprise though.  He's lived on both sides of the wall and was in the russian army for about 8 years, stationed all around eastern europe during the cold war.  Now he's got a business and does ok with it, and supports his family quite well.  Well enough that they own two late model lada's and one of them he loaned me for the 10 days I was there. They have a real DAM nice apartment that overlooks the theatre in the middle of town, and a "double" dacha in the country he built by hand, almost home depot style.  Real class work.  Nice guy, great vodka too.

Sorry, getting off topic.... adios!