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Author Topic: Arm chair MOB seekers and professional daters  (Read 12624 times)
johnnydudeman
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« on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

This is kind of a follow-up to Patrick's post below.

I have been to Moscow and Kherson and Odessa and Kiev...and on every single visit I ran into many American men who were also there "searching."  That's my personal experience.  On my last visit to Moscow, I was sitting in the lobby of the Marriott Avrora and there were three American men sitting at the table next to me in the lounge with their "prospective brides." When I flew from Kiev to Odessa, there were two other men who also "were searching" that I met at "the airport" while waiting for the same flight (and the planes on that route are really really small).  And in Kherson, there are so many American men there that its almost a joke, or a cliche.  In Kherson, I go to an ATM machine and there's an American man.  I go to the Nobel restaurant and there's an American man (the waiters at these restaurants in Kherson even have a kind of "wink wink" attitude as if to say "I know what you're here for").  I go to the nightclubs and there are American men.  Yes there are many arm chair MOB seekers, but there are also quite a few men visiting these days.  Its getting busy out there guys.  

But, how about those "professional daters?"  Those are the women out there who meet so many American men that they become almost jaded.  They expect a nice dinner in a nice restaurant and they often expect a gift from the American man.  And, yes, there are many such women out there.  There is a website based in Kherson which refers to Kherson as "the city of brides."  But I think it would be more accurate to call Kherson "the city of professional daters."  I have been to Kherson twice and I have met more Kherson women than I can remember, and every single woman I met in Kherson, without exception, had met numerous American men.  I met one, who is on every Kherson website and other larger websites, who told me during dinner that ten men had already proposed to her.  But she's "still looking."

So, yes, there are many arm chair MOB seekers out there who live out their fantasies vicariously by hearing others "wax poetic" about their travels.  And there are chair MOB seekers who just want the thrill of seeing pictures of good looking women and thinking they have a real connection with them by writing a few emails and letters.  But there are also LOTS of guys out there actually making the trip.  And, unfortunately, there are lots of girls out there who are professional daters and who have met MANY American men...but they just keep playing the dating game.

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RW
Guest
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Arm chair MOB seekers and professional d..., posted by johnnydudeman on Jun 24, 2002

from dating scene in any country.

In USA and in Russia there are always category of women who just "spin off" guys for as much as possible. There are guys who play the field and never think about getting married.

The major difference is that in your native country (US for american men and Russia for ladies) you would identify such a "player" sooner or later and move on (at least there would not be a drama of lady burning the bridges at her native country, was she a green card scammer? questions and other things).

Going to Russia/Ukraine for some reason guys think that they can figure out woman without speaking the language to her + using "cultural difference" excuse for everything else abnormal. Oh yes, there is a magic "chemistry" feeling, but many forget that there are many other qualities you at least need to KNOW about your future partner before you make such a serious commitment.

The most scary part is most of the men are not even behaving their regular selves when they go over there - because of foreign country, stress, or that burning desire to impress the lady and throw money around.

There might be a lot said in defense of proposing after couple days, but that is still pure gambling on both sides... What are the odds?


Russian Wife

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yoe
Guest
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to not different, posted by RW on Jun 24, 2002

I remember a scam story i read a few years ago. I am going to paraphrase-my memory is not so good.
But, this guys is pizzed off because he fiance left him. What had happend is that he had gone to the Ukraine and this girl was somehow under the impression that this guy lived differently that what he did.
How did he live?
He lived in a trailor, was basically unemployed. They argued regulary and it was so bad, the guy wrote, "I had to step outside and smoke a joint!" hahahahaha
His fiance was in Medicine and had no idea he was a doper.
Now what you must rememeber is this guys was writing the story complaining about the girl scamming him. She was yelling at him and calling him a loser...............
get it.
And I have talked with 3 other women who have had similar experiences.
But I must confess, we make our own beds. I feel bad for tehe men and the women who get scammed, but it really does take two to tango!
I tell my wife daily, that she got exactly what she desereved when she got me-and visa versa.
Joe
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Ryan
Guest
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Reading Ryans post below, posted by yoe on Jun 24, 2002

I see your point and understand exactly where you’re coming from.  I probably see it more then you do, but not necessarily just with RW.  I’m not saying that I am different or special I understand what might be the consequences of someone that tried to hide some other sort of lifestyle from their wives or girlfriends.  Actually I watch many of my friends do everyday.  It is not the life that I want to lead I assure you that.  I used to think that if I could just get a wife that I would quit all that bullsh!t and start living up to my full potential.  However; I am smart enough to know that just will not do.  In my case I will never really have to worry if I am unemployed or about not having enough to support a family but that is no concession especially when it comes to RW. (Well from what I understand anyway) Everyone changes, grows up and learns how to live life to it’s fullest I have always had a good head start.  People that think they are higher then god all mighty just because they have lived some righteous lifestyle their whole life, also have their little quirks that can lead to relationship disaster.
nice post Joe,
Ryan
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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to not different, posted by RW on Jun 24, 2002

There is a lot of truth in what you say Russian Wife..  I have known a few guys that have gone to the FSU from my city and often, all I would hear when they got back and were thinking about a girl was "she's so hot" etc..  I think it is often the case that men who go there do fall in "lust".  It would not be hard to do as there are so many lovely, willing women there!  On my last trip, I thought I might have found "the one" but I did finally realize it was 98% hormonal!  She WAS hot, no doubt!  Then you come home and start to feel the withdrawl symptoms and think "oh, I must be in love!".  But I look back on many of her inner qualities and I am so grateful I didn't follow through!
The girl I have submitted papers with now, I just feel so calm about, as a person.  Yes, I am attracted to her physically, but she is just such a great person!  I spent a great amount of time there speaking to her family and friends about her and I am so glad I did.  They didn't seem to think this was odd or anything.  I wanted to know everything about her from THEIR perspective because I knew that THEY knew her much better than I possibly could!  Well, they all adored her and pretty much to a tee agreed that she was one of the finest people they knew.  I'm serious, I really grilled these people and I think that is a smart thing to do.  I didn't do like the 3rd degree or anything, but asked a lot about her, asked for stories, about what kind of friend they thought she was, if she was someone they felt they could trust in any situation etc..  I asked a lot of fun questions too, just to keep it light.  If she is not for real, you are going to find some inconsistencies with these people at some point.  I never could.  I wanted to spend a lot of time around her family and firends to see how consistent she was with them, and she was, it was just normal for her.

Sure, we did the kissin and huggin stuff, and had lots of fun, alone and with her family, but we also stayed up till 3am talking about thoughts on child raising, spending money, saving money, religion, careers, life in America, what she expected from a husband, what I expected from a wife. etc..  And we just felt extremely compatible on these issues.  I had the advantage of seeing the kind of Mother she was (very important to me) as I saw her with her son a lot.  The kid is amazing, and that doesn't just happen, it takes good parenting.  I have met some other FSU women whose kids were not very well raised and the difference was night and day (I'm not judging them as I know life can be very unforgiving there for a single mom).

I think I felt fortunate as well in that my wife has never been in an agency before.  She said she never had any desire to be in one.  She read my ad in the newpaper and she said she kept thinking about it and finally decided to respond (THANK YOU JACK FOR TWISTING MY ARM ABOUT AN AD!!).  This is the first trip where I did an ad and I am so glad I did!  I met some of the nicest ladies this way!  Most had never been in an agency.  I am not saying there are not good girls in agencies, but I have met an awful lot of spoiled (usually the men's fault!) women through agencies, on 3 different trips.  

But even as good as I feel about it all, I have yet to "propose".  I think the 3 months together once in the USA is just soooo important!  To be together 24/7 for 3 months is actually a LOT of time together!  It would be very difficult not to see some warning flags by that time, if there are any.  Now, a guy may not want to admit to them, or acknowedge them, but I think they would most likely see them.  
It's easy to put your best foot forward (for both the man & the woman) for a couple of weeks dancing, going out to dinner, having fun etc.. I mean Ted Bundy could have fun with a date doing all that for crying out loud! LOL!  But when you are doing the daily grind, 24/7 for 3 months, especially with a child, you are going to learn a lot!  
I would personally not really recommend doing the "big trip" entertainment thing when the woman first comes here.  I think it would be best to just do the normal, daily life thing for 3 months.  THEN, once you get married, go on the trips., etc..

Just my 2 cents (ok, maybe $2.02!) ;-)  

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juio99
Guest
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: not different, posted by Oscar on Jun 24, 2002

I think you are off base a little when you put any reliance in what the people you talked with thought of your lady.  

After all she certainly wasn't going to put you in contact with anyone who was her enemy.  So these were all people who had positive thoughts about her.  They were good friends and family who wanted she and you to make a go of it.

Not trying to be a wet blanket here, but let's be a little realistic about some of this.

JR

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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Understand and agree mostly, but, posted by juio99 on Jun 25, 2002

JR, I hear what you are saying but I would say that it would be a big mistake (in my opinion) for a man NOT to meet a womans friends and family if at all possible.  As far as the info they gave, certainly I understand that they are prejudiced about her but as far as them wanting us to "make a go of it", I can't say that's true..  Some of them I am sure did, but her Father was very skeptical at first, and was very upfront about it!  As we came to know each other better, he came to like me and loosened up.  He then started telling me all about her- what she was like as a little girl, what she is like now, what he thought her short comings were and what her strong points were.. He told me a lot of stories about her growing up that showed a lot about her character.  It was actually very touching.    It was really informative and helpful to me.  And was she upset by any of my "questions"?  Nope, she was as calm as could be, I think because she knew she really had nothing to hide or worry about..  She really took a backseat when with her family and friends because as I found out, they really wanted the time to question ME too!! LOL!  Not once did they ask about things like money etc., but they wanted to know about my character and how I felt about marriage, etc..

Another thing that was very telling for me was the fact that even though her ex-husband had pretty much been a jerk during their marriage and a lousy Father (confirmed by others), she doesn't have bad or vengeful feelings about him.  She was more than happy to have him see their son anytime he wanted (usually he chose not to)..

And one thing I left out-  Something I also found completely invaluable was the feeling and imput of my interpreter..  Well, this is one of Jack's managers in Drenpropetrovsk.  She has been doing this for a while, knows what she's doing and she knows a scammer easily.  Well, she so liked my girl (and had never met her before she had responded to my ad) that they are now friends!  She thinks the world of her.  She kept telling me while I was there, (and I was still meeting other women) "I really don't think I will be able to find a nicer, more sincere, unspoiled, as well as beautiful woman here for you in my city!".  Well for me, she turned out to be correct.. ;-)

Later

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KenC
Guest
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Understand and agree mostly, but, posted by juio99 on Jun 25, 2002

JR,
You have a point, but much can be learned from friends and relatives.  Who she chooses as friends sure tells a lot about her.  Relatives can give you a background as to her up bringing and such.  None of this is 100% for sure.  But you take a little info here and there, and pretty soon you have a good idea who the lady is.  I see no negatives in meeting friends and family, only positives.
KenC
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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to not different, posted by RW on Jun 24, 2002

And then there are the very weird lucky stories-

My friend went to Russia (Tver) about 3 years ago.  He was so culture shocked that he hated it and actually came home after just after 10 days (4 days early!).  The very first woman he met (met her there for the first time) he interviewed her at the agency office for about 45 minutes and that was it, he didn't call her again or see her again before he left.  He met about 12-15 other girls while there, went on a few dates, but nothing at all special.

He comes home and about 4 weeks later this first girl that he met for about 45 minutes writes him a letter asking what happened to him..  So they start writing and do so for about 6 months and he does papers on her, goes over to pick her and her 6 year old daughter up in Moscow to bring back.  She spoke literally zero English too!  They have now been married for over 2 years and although it was a tough start for both of them (he was pretty set in his ways, he was 51 and she was 31), they are now totally happy together! LOL!  Go figure!  I think of it often as just blind luck, but to be honest, it was really hard work that got them through it!  
That was a real risk that he took.  When we talked about it he told me pretty straight- "look, you can call this FSU dating anything you want, but the bottom line is that is is an arranged marriage, a mail order marriage.  I was ready for marriage, she was ready for marriage, and we CHOSE to love each other (love being an "action", something we do, as opposed to just a "feeling"), and it worked for us.".

I thought it was a pretty unusual story.. ;-)  I could never have done it the way he did, but hey, if it works for some, fantastic!

Later

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RW
Guest
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: not different, posted by Oscar on Jun 24, 2002

Last week my husband and I were visiting the couple who introduced us originally. They have been married for 53 years, both are still very outgoing and happy.

That's what they call fantastic. That's when you can say that it is "really hard work that got them through it!" Smiley

Stories like yours scare me. I don't see anything great about it. Real risk, no kidding.


RW

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thesearch
Guest
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to who knows...., posted by RW on Jun 24, 2002

RW your leading post in this thread was very good and to the point.

However, in reply to Oscar's post about the gentleman who processed the papers without knowing his future wife and how that scared you, I do not see that most of these marriages are really much different.  

Another guy may have spent more time on the initial visit and may have gone back a second time with correspondence in between but, the courting stage is a different world from the real world. It is a world where things get veiled with anticipation, hopes, dreams and hormones.

I have not read one story here where I feel the guy really knew the lady enough to not be considered anything more than "I like the way you look, I enjoyed your company, we seem to get along, lets get married and see if it works"  versus lets date and see if it works.

The bottom line is few of these marriages are not essentially arranged marriages in the final analysis with people being sensitive to this, not wanting to accept this by rationalizing to extremes how their case is different.

To the outsider, this is very clear and words of I love her so much and she really loves me can be perceived as pathetic, almost like the way junior high school kids get as they first venture into romance.

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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to who knows...., posted by RW on Jun 24, 2002

Oh, I totally agree, I think it was way unusual, but it seems to work for them.  Like I said, I could not do it that way, but I have met couples before, and many American couples, that have been married for 25-50 years that say they were married a week or 2 weeks after they met!  It can happen..  It's just different, that's for sure! LOL!
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yoe
Guest
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: not different, posted by Oscar on Jun 24, 2002

youhave two people who have similar goals, enjoy each other, have chemistry, are both 'ready' to start a new life with a mate-I don't know but that sound pretty rational to me! The heck with all of that love crap-I bet even Lp could endorse that product!
Joe
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Oscar
Guest
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to I think that is the bottom line........., posted by yoe on Jun 24, 2002

..
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Griffin
Guest
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2002, 04:00:00 AM »

... in response to Re: not different, posted by Oscar on Jun 24, 2002

Teenagers fall in love.  Grown ups grow to love each other over time.
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