Another Child Question

[Oscar]

... in response to Are You Speaking From First-Hand Experie..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

Dan,

Are you saying that the only possible credible information is that which comes "firsthand"?  Because if that is the case, I think you might want to cut the seatbelts out of your car if you have never been in an accident because how will you know they work if you haven't ever been in one?

No, I have not had the "firsthand" experience of taking a child out of Ukraine (yet), but I am confident that these websites are not all likely to be wrong.. Also, my girl asked at the passport office about this and they told her there that as long as her son's info is in her passport (which he is), there would be no problem!

I also know men who ARE on this board who HAVE taken childen out of Ukraine WITHOUT any letter of permission, like Rags for instance..  They have reported no problems at all.

The fact that men here have done so without ever being asked for any permission letter, plus all the Visa websites saying the same, plus what was told to my girl, leads me to conclude that indeed, a letter of permission is not needed where the Mother has custody and the child is listed in her passport..

[Dan]

... in response to Re: Are You Speaking From First-Hand Exp..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

And yes Oscar - I do put much more faith in first-hand experience than I do in your mere regurgitation of other website information. Some, more circumspect individuals, take the approach that if they do not know for sure - then they remain silent so that others with more experience/knowledge may field the question and offer truly quality advice.

You continually refer to your understanding of the situation in Ukraine. The fact that the person asking the question is asking relative to **Russia** - and it is an essential consideration in this question.

- Dan

[Oscar]

... in response to Russia is Different From Ukraine in This..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002

letters for children in either Russia or Ukraine as long as they are in mom's passport and she has custody.  I understand that you do not like me and that is fine as I do not care for you at all either..  But give the board a rest and quit your constant ragging ok...

To think that one cannot report on information without having gone through every bit of it themselves is assinine!
What planet are you from?  
Again, you stray from the FACTS-
1- MULTIPLE VISA WEB SITES give the same info regarding children and permission (the same for Russia and Ukraine).
2- There are men here who have brought children out of these places with NO PERMISSION PAPER, it was NEVER asked of them!
3- My girl was told at the passport office that it was NOT NEEDED!  Al that IS needed is for her son to be in her passport.

So what is it that you do NOT understand??  You only going to be satisfied if the Czar himself comes to your house to confirm all this??

You and I both know that had ANYONE other than myself had reported this info, there would not have been a peep out of you, but because you dislike me, you are all over it..

So give it a freaking rest and quit with the childish attitude!

[Del]

... in response to Dan- Give it and the board a rest ok?? Y..., posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

section of a highway at rates well beyind the speed limit without receiving any traffic tickets does not enable one to state "it's OK to speed", in my opinion. This is tantamount to what you are doing!
Now, the fact is, if a woman exits Ukraine with a minor child and does not have a document from the Father of the child granting permissions, the possibility most certainly exists that he (the Father) could charge her with "child abduction". This is very clear! And, if such an action were commenced, the US Government is obligated to follow through.
Yes, it's possible that many have left Ukraine without the permission of the Father, and, it's also possible that some have been stopped at Borispol. I only know my own situation.
What is certain is that by flatly stating that it's not required (as you are doing) is irresponsible to say the least.
There is more and more attention being given to this every day (parental abduction)by many Governments, and this is not to mention the moral aspect of removing a child from the country of his parent(s) without the non-custodial parent being informed.

[Oscar]

... in response to Just because one is able to travel a giv..., posted by Del on Jun 13, 2002

A woman in Ukraine who has full custody of her child does not need a letter from a spouse.  I think it would be good if you read ALL the posts about this if you have not.

And the US governments will "rarely if ever" get involved!

Now Del, I have not once mentioned the moral implications in any of this so DON'T go there with me..  I have simply stated that LEGALLY, a letter of permission is NOT required..  It IS required if that child is going to Canada, but by the Canadian government, not the Ukrainian government..

[Dan]

... in response to Sorry Del, you are incorrect-, posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

Here's the first link: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/21467.html

And here's the second: http://www.brama.com/travel/messages/21463.html

It supports Del's points and seems to prove all of your hyperbole to be . . . well - just so much hyperbole.

- Dan

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Just For You Ste.. (Oops) I Mean 'Oscar'..., posted by Dan on Jun 13, 2002


OK... I enjoy sitting back and watching the occasional pissing contest as much as the next guy... but now I am confused.

What is the Ste. reference?

I'm, lost....

[Oscar]

... in response to Wait a minute... I'm lost, posted by MarkInTx on Jun 13, 2002

My middle name is Oscar, which I use on the net.  My first name is Steve.  I think Dan must have gotten it from Jack.  So I am assuming that for whatever reason, Dan is trying to make it out that I am some kind or lying imposter or something for using my middle name..

Jack knows me, helped plan my trip and is still helping me etc..

[Dan]

... in response to Mark, he is referring to my name-, posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

Assumptions about my source.

Assumptions about my intent.

You really shouldn't make assumptions - of any sort - Oscar.

- Dan

[Oscar]

... in response to Assumptions are Dangerous . . ., posted by Dan on Jun 14, 2002

I'm terrified, really terrified.. LOL!

[Dan]

... in response to Sounds like a threat Dan.. You should be..., posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

There was no threat in what I said. I wouldn't stoop to such behaviors. The fact that you interpreted it that way is, in fact, laughable - and at the same time, sad.

To repeat - it is foolish (and dangerous to your objective) to make assumptions.

LOL

- Dan

[Oscar]

... in response to Boy, Are You Ever Wacked Out . . ., posted by Dan on Jun 14, 2002

Now THAT is sad..  And it doesn't take a therapist to know that if you can be this upset by a total stranger, what life must be like for those who actually have to live around you.. especially your wife..

[Dan]

... in response to No Dan, "sad" is having to res..., posted by Oscar on Jun 14, 2002

The only "personal attacks" are those emanating from YOUR keyboard.

I am not the least bit upset. I wonder why you think I am?!? Projecting, I think.

My wife seems quite pleased with our life together. But then again - I *have* a wife - as opposed to . . . .?

Really - just calm down - take some of that medication you like to prescribe for your patients (in between your hundreds of posts to this board each day plus all the reading you do on other boards - whew!) - and take a deep breath - and try to enjoy life a bit.

Not everyone is out to make your life miserable Oscar - no matter what you may believe.

- Dan

[Del]

... in response to Sorry Del, you are incorrect-, posted by Oscar on Jun 13, 2002

from:  http://travel.state.gov/officeofchildissues.html

INTERNATIONAL ABDUCTION

Since the late 1970's, the Bureau of Consular Affairs has taken action in over 8,000 cases of international parental child abduction. We also have provided information in response to thousands of additional inquiries pertaining to international child abduction, enforcement of visitation rights and abduction prevention techniques. The Office of Childrens Issues works closely with parents, attorneys, other government agencies and private organizations in the United States to prevent international abductions.

Forty-four countries (including the United States) have joined the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction. The Convention discourages abduction as a means of resolving a custody matter, by requiring (with few exceptions) that the abducted child be returned to the country where he/she resided prior to the abduction. In 1996, this office received approximately 700 applications under the Hague Convention. About half involved children abducted from the United States to other countries. Most of the cases involved Mexico, Canada, the United Kingdom, Germany and France.

There are still many countries, however, where the Hague Convention has not been accepted. In the event of an abduction to a non-Hague country one option for a left-behind parent is to obtain legal assistance in the country of the abduction and follow through a court action. Of non-Hague countries, the largest number of cases involved children abducted to Egypt, Japan, Jordan, the Philippines, and Saudi Arabia.

WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT

CAN DO:

-- In cases where the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction applies, assist parents in filing an application with foreign authorities for return of the child

-- In other cases, through our Embassies and Consulates abroad, attempt to locate, visit and report on the child's general welfare

-- Provide the left-behind parent with information on the country to which the child was abducted, including its legal system, family laws, and a list of attorneys there willing to accept American clients

-- In all cases, provide a point of contact for the left-behind parent at a difficult time

-- Monitor judicial or administrative proceedings overseas

-- Assist parents in contacting local officials in foreign countries or contact them on the parents behalf

-- List the child in a passport look-out database to alert the custodial parent to an application for a U.S. passport.

-- Alert foreign authorities to any evidence of child abuse or neglect

[Oscar]

... in response to Oscar, here is the material you seem to ..., posted by Del on Jun 13, 2002

I'm sorry Del, but I don't see anything in there about being required to produce a letter from a spouse.

If you are talking about "abductions" that's a whole other subject.. Abductions denote an illegal act!
But for a woman in Russia or Ukraine, it is no longer required to have a letter of permission from the ex-husband if the wife has sole custody of the child.. That is not "abduction".  I didn't write the rules and I am not passing moral judgement on it.  I am just reporting what I have found, from other Visa web sites, including the Doc Steen site which seems to be well respected here by most people, from accounts of men who have done it and by the information I just got from my girl who just asked at a Ukrainian passport office..