They're not trolls...

[unsure]

I have been reflecting on why a number of people so strongly disapprove of international correspondence and marriage.  The remarks I have seen ridicule and berate both the men and the women involved.  These are not the kind words of a person genuinely concerned for the happiness of the people involved.  They are venomous attacks that rely on stereotypes and disrespect.  

The men are derided as desperate, unwanted fools who seek that which they should not have.  Universally, their characters and motives are condemned.  

The women are portrayed as only wanting to use men to get money or a green card.  This is so sad and shows flagrant contempt for their values and culture.  

Simply stated, the fact that people make blanket statements is a clear indication of their prejudice.  Why do people pursuing foreign marriages receive such scorn?  The answer is control.  Ridicule is being used as a weapon in an attempt to make people conform.  Some would go so far as to use the law to stop these marriages.  Is this really so different from Hitler forbidding marriages to Jews?  Fortunately, I have faith that our Constitution would not allow such fascism.

It’s time we correctly label the people who harass and ridicule those marrying outside their culture:  They’re not trolls, they’re bigots.

[thesearch]

... in response to They're not trolls..., posted by unsure on Feb 27, 2002

I do not think it is that simple. It is universal to make observations and to attempt to come to a conclusion. At some level everyone here is a bigot also. For just one example look at the generalization that is made about American women here. Check the archives.

However when most guys here make a comment about American women they know that there are many women in the USA who do not match that profile depicted in the generalization even though they do not go through an extensive disclaimer after sharing what they observe about American women. Now is the generalization correct? Well for me it depends on which aspects of the generalization you are referring to. I agree that women in America are getting fat. As a generalization this is correct as verified by more than my own personal observations.

Now about the generalizations that you are upset with regarding the MOB scene:

"The men are derided as desperate, unwanted fools who seek that which they should not have."

Why do you think that this generalization is expressed? Is it because this is absolutely not true? Or is it because there are enough men like this involved in this process to become visual enough for this observation to be made and thus stated. Now is this generalization true? According to the INS there are a ton of abusive American men traveling abroad to find wives. unfortunately it is these men that are going to attract the strongest attention and the nice men who marry women close to their own age are going to go un noticed.

I think that the generalization of men involved in this process is based upon true observation. However, no one knows what percentage of the men involved in this match the generalization as compared to the percentage of reasonable men with reasonable desires. The generalization COULD BE TRUE for all we know.

I think that it is safe to say that there are more men in the MOB scene who seek younger women (being successful at this quest) than their male counterparts back home. I think it is safe to say that we (men in MOB scene) have percentage wise more mismatches relative to physical attractiveness than is usually observed back home among men of similar desirability. How do these men do this - largely taking advantage of issues of economics as well as the lesser realized aspect by the media of the shortage of good men in the FSU. However, I am starting to rethink this last issue. I now suspect that a lot of these women that men bring over are the more attractive women who do not have a problem attracting men back home. So, in that sense it commonly comes back to the economic issue again in some cases.

People are upset about the abuse issues that the INS says is not uncommon. Men have abused women from the beginning in time. The media not uncommonly paints this as just another way men can abuse women. And there is truth to this. Many people are not bigots who criticize this process. They are responding to what they are told by the media. In many cases it is the media that is responsible for improper understandings. This is not necessarily intentional.

"The women are portrayed as only wanting to use men to get money or a green card."

Well there is a reason for this also. There is a fair amount of that going on and think about it - when a person sees an older man with beautiful young Russian or Ukrainian lady that if she were American would have not given him the time of day (in USA she would be considered out of his league) - it is a reasonable conclusion for an observer to arrive at.

The bottom line ---- the conceptions of the public are not going to change even if the media is more balanced in its reporting.

Now, none of these conceptions by the public are really important if you do not let them bother you. It is reasonable for people to come to the conclusions that you have pointed out. Good decent people will come to these conclusions so - do not let it upset you. All you can do is not be what they depict and not bring over a woman that is this stereotype. However, one lady that I am writing to has made it clear - she is going to choose an American man over a Russian because of the USA economy compared to that of her homeland. Does that mean that I will reject her - heck no - not at all. It is going to be very difficult to remove the economic reasons that can motivate or at least put the icing on the cake so to speak.

[LP]

... in response to My view - you probably won't like, posted by thesearch on Feb 27, 2002

....well said and, in a general sense, quite accurate.

Only problem is you'll never get those living in La La Land to buy it.

[KenC]

... in response to My view - you probably won't like, posted by thesearch on Feb 27, 2002

Greg,
Is it our fault that we AM have a competitive advantage over RM because we live in America? Or is it unfair that RW tend to be in better shape, prettier, more educated than AW?  Whatever your reasons are for looking to Russia for a woman I see it as a good fit because of the following: Through this process, RW have the opportunity to upgrade their futures because of the financial security we can offer that RM cannot.  In turn, we AM get the opportunity to upgrade (youth, beauty,ect) the woman we choose to marry.  More than fair as I see it.
KenC

[thesearch]

... in response to unfair competition?, posted by KenC on Feb 28, 2002

Just as a man with a business that sells expensive oriental rugs would place his shop in a upper scale neighborhood.

He has what they want - and they have what he requires. It is all very logical.

But, isn't it funny that relative to human relations people sometimes do not want to be logical - almost as if it is wrong - so they might say that we are taking advantage of the poor economy to attract a woman yet with the man who sells rugs they see this as being only wise to do such.

[Jeff S]

... in response to My view - you probably won't like, posted by thesearch on Feb 27, 2002

.. if the woman and man are not matched in terms of physical attractiveness than she must be in it for the money, is pure nonsense, and shows a remarkable ignorance of the nature of women. Though I'm sure they exist, I've never met a woman who's based her marriage interest on the looks of a man, particularly not one from outside the USA.
-- Jeff S.

[thesearch]

... in response to Your assertion that..., posted by Jeff S on Feb 28, 2002

I agree with you Jeff. I did not mean that if there is a mismatch that it has to be for money. However, from my personal experience,  mismatches more commonly do involve money or fame (the woman having beauty, the man having the fame or assets and cash).

Of course it is common knowledge that older men who are filthy rich or very famous choose to marry older homely women right? Of course not, these men in such positions are not really different from other men. They are simply doing what they can because these things have some level of influence over women plain and simple.

Now I am going to suggest that if when you met you future wife over fifteen years ago, if there was another man seeking her attention as seriously as you - who was just as  nice a guy as you and thus in that sense it was a toss up between that two of you but, he was better looking than you as well as being much more successful than you in the financial world - do you think that she would have chosen you? Percentages are she would not have with every thing being equal relative to internal quality issues. She did choose her best option at a time that she was ready to choose - that was you fifteen years ago.  

I am going to give you an example. In the area that I live in, there are like many places - more prestigious neighborhoods than others with categories being possibly described as, poor neighborhood relative to property value, middle class, upper middle class, upper class and elite relative to property value. I am not discussing anything other than property value not family values or anything like that.

Now, if you go to the grocery stores that service these various households you will make this observation. The physical attractiveness of the women that frequent these stores correlates to the value of the real estate. The higher the property values that the grocery stores services the greater percentage of attractive women in that store as compared to stores that service households of lower real estate value. I am not talking about their makeup or clothes that can enhance appearance but actual base beauty. Here I see a clear correlation between money and where the beautiful women end up - with men with money.

I will agree with you (if I understood you correctly and did not extend your words to a meaning you did not intend) that women tend to be more fair in evaluating a man in that, they are more interested in who he is as compared to what he has generally. So, if you are not the best looking guy in the world but you are a very considerate, and just fun to be with - a women will be more willing to overlook a certain level of lack of physical attractiveness, assets etc. More than what?- MEN.

Men are more superficial as a group;, less willing to accept a homely woman as compared to women accepting such in a male. Now, I have had men tell that this is not true and then when I suggest they consider dating a very good lady friend of mine (she is truly a wonderful person as well being very intelligent and nurturing) they will have no part of it because of her looks. They refuse to even explore the possibility yet they are very interested in a lady of lesser value as a person because she turns their head because of external beauty.

Now, back to the issue of women being interested in who the man is and not his money as a general statement - because I agree with you - how come a higher percentage of women are at the super markets that service upper class neighborhoods? Upon first examination the idea and the observation seem to be in conflict. The only reason that I can come up with is that if there are two men that a lady is interested in who are both good men - some women will simply vote for the man with the money because he simply has something more to add to his package. Either that or more superficial people move to where I live and in such I am in a vacuum (I do not believe that).

So, if you think that people choose people by who they are as compared to what they are you are only partially correct. Women choose men with money and power as well as they choose who he is. So, if you think that you can compete with a man that is a wonderful person who also has everything else above and beyond you, you are fooling yourself. (unless she has a self esteem problem - then she will not feel deserving of your competitor and thus will choose you)

Women are just less superficial about these things than men IMHO

[Jeff S]

... in response to Well, we see it differently but perhaps ..., posted by thesearch on Feb 28, 2002


It's very true that the attractiveness of a woman is a more important part of the overall package that she's selling to men, than men's looks in their package for women. Millions of years of evolution have hard-wired us for this. In spite of modern feminist thinking, men are simply more turned on by what we perceive to be beautiful women, so we tend to have sex more often with women we're more turned on by, so pass on those traits to more offspring. Women, on the other hand are hardwired for making the nest safe for children which means being attracted to more successful men, originally at hunting, these days picking stocks, or displaying their prowess with fancy cars, jewlery and homes.

As for lots more good looking women in the richer neighborhoods, consider that in many cases you can take a downright homely girl, give her an expert hair, makeup, and clothes makeover and make her look like a movie star. The wives of the wealthy have more time, energy and disposable income to maintain their appearance than those who have to spend their days doing things like stocking the shelves at Wallmart, only to come home and cook and clean for their families. It's another funny quirk about America is that this is the only nation in the world where the rich are thinner than the poor. You want to see fat people, go to poor neighborhoods - A big mac, fries and a coke are a lot more fattening than a caesar salad and glass of chardonnay, plus the well off tend to play tennis, have personal trainers, have the time and facilities to swim every day, etc. etc.

All of that being said, though, we're not talking about averages here, nor statistics, nor trends, we're talking about one person meeting another, falling in love and getting married. Do rich guys fall in love with mousey little country girls? You bet. How about old guys and young girls? Sure, Karl on the Asian board and his wife are 47+ years apart and obviously very much in love. As someone else pointed out, if you have in-mind a set of specifications (she has to be 24 to 27, 5' 10", auburn hair, green eyes, c cup, slender legs, doctorate, etc, etc) you'll probably fail miserably. If you set out to find someone who makes you feel special every day of your life, someone who you're willing to make a great team together and who keeps you turned on, not only from a physical standpoint, but an ongoing lovliness that is ageless and not dependent on subtle shapes of curves.

Just my NSHO. Your mileage may vary.

-- Jeff S.

[KenC]

... in response to Fair Enough., posted by Jeff S on Mar 1, 2002

n/t

[KenC]

... in response to Well, we see it differently but perhaps ..., posted by thesearch on Feb 28, 2002

Single men should do their grocery shopping in better neighborhoods?  LOL.
KenC

[Mike]

... in response to My view - you probably won't like, posted by thesearch on Feb 27, 2002

I must say that your post was well thought out and I see more truth in it then some may be willing to except. Now that I'm married to a RW we now have freinds that are AM/RW and of all these freinds I know of 1 couple that is a mismatch ( she's very attractive and he's undiscribable) and they are the only ones we know that represent the stereo type that gives the MOB a bad reputation. Also they are the only two we know that most likely will not last because of a number of reasons. The rest are good matches to the eye and they have what appears to be good relationships.

If a young beautiful girl comes here and she is with a society misfit or someone that will embarrass her to be seen with, then at some time in her adjustment she is going to realize that all the guys are checking her out and the results may not be so good for the AM because at some point she is going to want to fit into our society mold, at least that's my educated guess.( but who knows for sure )and the thought of this would cause me to stay in my own league if I was still searching.
Mike

[thesearch]

... in response to Re: My view - you probably won't like, posted by Mike on Feb 28, 2002

Mike

How many AM/RW couples are you referring to.

Also, let me step back a moment and say that mismatches to the eyes of others is not a condemnation to failure of a marriage. There are mismatches everywhere that work out fine.

[Mike]

... in response to Re: Re: My view - you probably won't lik..., posted by thesearch on Feb 28, 2002

Of the 12 couples we know 11 are of the same age( give or take 5 years or so ) and look like they are in the same league with each other,(so to speak) One is a mismatch and she will soon leave him is my bet because he is so insecure and feels he must watch her every move. If a man is unattractive combined with poor social skills (and in a nut shell a guy that would have a hard time finding any AW ) and then has himself a hotty he must always kiss butt with her or risk her leaving him. It just makes sense that he can never express anything that he dislikes about her without thinking in the back of his head she can easily leave him for better surroundings, and these thoughts can only be held back for so long. I'm sure you can see that this could and does happen, and I'm sure that there are mismatches that work out fine, but my money will be on those that marry out of their league stand more chance of failure compaired to those that look good together and the guy is the type of man that could find a girl equally attractive here if they were easily available and of the same charactor quality. (regardless how this may sound) I know that to see a mismatch couple here (AM/AW) is a very rare sight unless he is rich,or extreemly great to be around, or both, and it does happen but not typically, in fact it is very rare. Personally I don't think I know any AM/AW couples that are this much of a mismatch.  
Mike

[thesearch]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: My view - you probably won't..., posted by Mike on Feb 28, 2002

Mike,

Thanks for answering my question. That makes sense.

Let me share with you one experience. There is this guy that I know who appearance wise is about a 3 or 4 out of a possible 10. His wife is a 9 easily. They are a total mismatch. She is close to his age however but she looks much younger than her years.

Now the way this guy acts you would think that his mirror is  providing a reflection of  a guy that is very handsome and he is just not aware that he is a 3 or a 4.  He is confident, he does not tip toe around his wife at all. He has her wrapped around his finger. At gatherings, his wife is more doting on him than any of the other guys wives.

The moral to the story is that if you see in the mirror a man of high quality and believe it - that is what comes out in your actions and this is how people will respond to you.

So that one guy with the mismatch is doing the opposite of this and he will create on his very own his fear.

[John K]

... in response to They're not trolls..., posted by unsure on Feb 27, 2002

I think the thing that gets them so wound up is the term "Mail Order Bride".  It is such an antiquated name and has such inaccurate connotations to it.  Ask anyone about Mail Order Brides and they will envision some guy picking some girl out of a catalog, filling out a form and having her shipped to him.  To many people, mail order brides come just like anything you would order from your JC Penney's catalog.  Sad, totally inaccurate, but all too often believed and accepted as the truth.

When people ask us how we met, my wife and I simply say we met through the internet.  We are simply one of those "internet romances" that everyone is hearing about these days.  Almost always, we hear "Oh, how romantic!"  I have yet to hear any woman say "that's disgusting!"  Of course, I have yet to meet a woman who hated the movie "You Have Mail".  It's really more an image thing.

Those that mock the MOB route should by the same token mock those who use dating services, place or answer personal ads, hang out in bars to pick up guys/girls, or who allow someone to "set them up" with somebody.  If they don't, then they are hypocrites.  If they do, then they are totally unrealistic and if they manage to find somebody of their own, it will only be by the grace of God.  

Speaking of "Grace of God", I heard of one guy who attended church retreats for the sole purpose of finding a marriage minded woman.  He found one.  Does that make him a loser, or was he sanctioned by God to find his true love?  A puzzle for those theologians out there...  :-)

As always, this is simply my 2¢ and strictly my opinion.  Your mileage may vary...