Ban Me Now, Or . . .

[Dan]

First - to those guys offering words of support and encouragement, both on and off the board - you have my express appreciation.

I have been pondering my response for a while now, and have settled on my thoughts.

KenC expressed my reaction best when he said, in a message to Patrick, "...you discredit Dan by even warning him." That is exactly how I feel about this "Warning" - that it represents an action reserved for small children - a 'time-out' as it were - and I find it insulting.

Well, Patrick - that being the case, you may as well ban me right now. I will not, even for a moment, accept the sort of highly-personalized attack such as that recently launched by jj - and a while further back by mdante.

If I elect to continue to participate on this board, I will NOT curtail my responses to obvious trolls - and especially not to those who initiate attacks upon my character.

To the best of my recollection, I have NEVER initiated an attack on anyone on this board - although I have, quite clearly, joined in and responded to any number of attacks - and all have eventually proven to lead to the discovery of a troll. Most will not recall it, but I was the very first to engage in a debate with David SD. I was one of the first to cross swords with ClaireWitch. Most recently, it was through my exchanges with Mdante and jj, that both had their final 'come-aparts.' I do not believe that these exchanges have been my most important contribution to the board - but I do think they have contributed, by ridding the board of obvious detractors.

While I accept that my responses do, indeed, create additional workload for you Patrick - you must face the simple fact that the theme of this board is going to be a lightning-rod for any number of people to launch assaults. Assaults and attacks will persist - and you will need to be ever-vigilant to prevent it - and to cleanse the board when the inevitable occurs.

As BubbaGump said in his well-done post on "Troll Signatures" - "13) They really hate Dan..."

I didn't ask for this hate and contempt to come my way. To the best of my knowledge I have done nothing to invite or inspire it - except to be one that has successfully circumnavigated the problems and pitfalls of this endeavor (so far) - AND - I am willing to call into error those posts which are obviously fallacious.

In Sum, I am no Harvey MilkToast (or John K). I am not going to start now for the sake of satisfying Patrick's "Watch List." So Patrick - you may as well ban me now, because I assure you I will respond just as I have done in the past - to inaccurate and misleading posts - and to maligning and personalized attacks.

I've long-maintained that this is your sandbox we play in and your decision as to who plays - and who doesn't. It's your choice now.

- Dan

PS - I am sure the trolls are getting a big kick out of this exchange.

[Patrick]

... in response to Ban Me Now, Or . . ., posted by Dan on Feb 23, 2002

I never said not to respond, I simply don't want you baiting JJ or calling someone names.  If you're called a bad name first, then by all means, fight back, but do so as a reply to the other person and not as a new thread please.

[Cold Warrior]

... in response to Ban Me Now, Or . . ., posted by Dan on Feb 23, 2002

someone who doesn't know you personally cannot launch a personal attack on you. The most they can do is indulge in name calling. I think you are strong enough to ignore this.

[John K]

... in response to Ban Me Now, Or . . ., posted by Dan on Feb 23, 2002

Dan, your "all or nothing" ultimatum is a little bit extreme, don't you think?  Patrick was just warning you, like he does all people who are causing his board to be overflowing with troll/antitroll posts.

As for not knowing why the trolls home in on you like a magnet, perhaps I can provide you a little understanding.  You strike me as the "toe-to-toe" and "take no prisoners" type of person.  That's just the sort of antagonistic style that trolls seem to adore.  After all, remember that all they are trying to do is disrupt the flow of information and draw themselves into the limelight.  By engaging them, you give them exactly what they need: recognition and someone to tease/attack.

A troll's mind is a sick and twisted place.  They need to find someone to hurt.  It makes them feel superior when they can make someone else feel inferior, or at least drag someone else down to their level.  They want to be noticed, but have no social skills to play well in the sandbox, nor do they have the self esteem to feel that they actually have something worthwhile to contribute.  So, they pursue the attack and attack again strategy, looking for someone to pick a fight with.  And you are all too happy to oblige them.

More than once people have said here, "Ignore them and they will go away".  If we only listened to this advice more.  By attacking them back, you let the trolls know you are a target.  They will stoop to lower and lower tactics to drag you down to their level.  They want to show you as someone who is no better than they are.  If you let them do so, you end up surrendering your values and accepting theirs.  When you find your posts becoming less reasoned and more juvenile "tit for tat", beware!  You are sliding down that slippery slope that gets harder and harder to climb out of the lower you go.

I agree with everyone who says you contribute a lot to this board.  You do have wonderful insights and a lot of experience from which people can benefit by.  But when you let yourself be caught by the trolls in a flame war again and again, it causes people to start to ignore your posts, as they will see the only the one side and not the other.  You are better than this, Dan.  You are a d*mned sight better than these trolls.  Don't let them do this to you.

Please consider what I'm telling you, Dan.  You are too fine a person to let yourself be caught in this situation.  I, like most people, want you to remain here.  Unlike others, however, I must take Patrick's side for the good of the board.  If he is to apply his policies fairly and impartially, we must all be subject to them.  If you read his post again with a more impartial view, perhaps you can see why he was forced to warn you as well.

As for being a "milktoast", I will accept that as a compliment, whether you meant is as such or not.  I have struggled for years to control my temper, and it has not been easy.  My propensity towards physical violence scares me, and I must keep myself under tight control at all times.  Even today, Marina knows to be careful around me when I get "that look".  To know that I have the strength to keep myself under that much control is something I have desired for years.  So thank you for that inadvertant feedback, Dan.  It means a lot to me.

As always, this is simply my 2¢ and strictly my personal opinion.  Take what you want from it.  I'm not out to win any popularity contests; I simply want to help.

[Dan]

... in response to Must we take it to extremes?, posted by John K on Feb 23, 2002

John,

My post was not issued as an ultimatum. An ultimatum is issued in attempt to exercise control over a situation. While I can see how you (and perhaps others) might interpret what I said as an ultimatum, it was really meant to be staking a position. I know myself pretty well - and am reasonably comfortable with what I see. I know that I have certain propensities - and in those instances where I feel justified, I *am* going to respond. I would not be *me* otherwise. Patrick has, appropriately, absolute 'control' over this situation - and I acknowledge that and do not resist it. I also feel it would be inappropriate for me to accept limitations that I know I will not fulfill. Simple as that. No ultimatum at all. Patrick now knows exactly how I will behave - and he can make whatever choice he wishes with that information. I am not going to play some game of being coy and agreeing to something that I have no plan to abide by.

It is interesting feedback to hear that you think I have a "take no prisoners" persona. Interesting - and surprising - as I am not sure how you are left with that impression nor how my messages transmitted that. Many, many messages pass by that I raise an eyebrow at or get a chuckle from or shake my head in either amazement or amusement and I do not respond. Probably, more than most, I adopted the attitude of responding only where I feel I can contribute something - and I am protective of posting anything very personal on the net. I generally try to stick with what is reasonably 'knowable' and resist addressing those issues that are immediately inflammatory or are a matter of personal opinion (age difference, as one obvious example). That being my self-perception of my posting practices, it is difficult for me to understand your impression - though I'll take it on as useful input.

John, you and I differ in our assessments of why it is that trolls like to target me. I prefer to believe it is due to the combination of facts that; a) I am married to a wonderful RW, and b) I don't mind picking apart their stories using logic and experience.

As for the Harvey MilkToast comment, I can see now that you felt it was aimed at you. It was not my intent. I meant to say that I am not John K (and with due respect, I don't want to be) and I am not now, never have been, and never will be, a Harvey MilkToast type personality. I am who I am - bad or good - right or wrong. I have referred to you often as a voice of moderation on the board. Occasionally, some have made similar comments about me. Still, I am not you - and I never will be. And I am not Harvey MilkToast --smile--.

It *does* strike me as odd that the very same posting style I have used here for the past 3 (or more) years, suddenly results in my receiving a "Warning." I do not believe I have substantially changed my style in that time - but I do believe that the trolls have become more and more focused in their attacks and more vociferous in their agendas. They are also more devious in the charades they utilize. That said, my focus on the board has not been the trolls. It has been, and remains, the acquisition of knowledge from other's experiences. The trolls are simply an unwanted nuisance.

So - as a summary, I don't believe I am stooping to their level. I do what I have always done. I am genuinely interested in the experiences and opinions of others. I am genuinely willing to share with others, whatever I am able that may be of value. When I stumble onto some snake lying in the grass trying to build a case, I am quick to flag the snake and work to remove it. Nothing's changed.

Thanks for the input.

- Dan

[Charles]

... in response to Ban Me Now, Or . . ., posted by Dan on Feb 23, 2002

Dan, I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed by KenC in his post.  I think Patrick is way out of line lumping you in with Ryan and others.  I can personally attest to the information that you have provided on this board as well as the brama board to be most illuminative and invaluable as I have used it in my visits to Ukraine.  I think you should continue these efforts, including weeding out those who attempt to provide misinformation.  Hopefully, the trolling and bashing that has soiled this board for the past several weeks will come to an end, but I think your loss as a poster would irreparably damage this board.  Keep up the good work!