Question for those with prenuptial agreements

[Richard]

Every so often, the subject of Prenuptial agreements comes up.  I've been wondering how those who have them have brought the subject up with their partner?  Personally, I don't feel as though I could say to someone, "I love you, but, I want this aggreement to protect myself anyway."  I'd like to hear how some people have approached this subject.

[Tim Collins 333]

... in response to Question for those with prenuptial agree..., posted by Richard on Feb 18, 2002

Kind of like bringing a bodybag to the wedding isn't it?

[John K]

... in response to Question for those with prenuptial agree..., posted by Richard on Feb 18, 2002

Prenups are pretty sensitive issues.  Most Russian girls have been well informed long before you arrive that an American man will try to hit them up with one before they walk down the aisle.  It also is usually presented in a negative light, so by the time the words "prenuptual agreement" leave your mouth, they are already on the defensive and are determined to say "no".  Don't get excited about it, it's just reflex on their part.

Once it's out, you will need to talk over your lady's feelings regarding why she doesn't want a prenuptual agreement (and believe me, she won't).  You'll get various statements like "You don't trust me", and "You don't love me", which are designed to play on your sympathies and shame you into dropping the subject, or else make you feel like a schmuck for sticking to your guns.

Given this adversarial stance, is it any wonder why the prenuptual situation is so dangerous.  I've seen American couples torn apart over the issue, how do you think it will be with a lady who is much more sensitive and temperamental than your average American woman?  The prenuptual situation is a virtual minefield, that you have to cross, or else face the possibility of a lot of unpleasantness later.

Now, how did I approach it?  Personally, it was easy.  I asked my fiancée how she felt about the prenuptual and why she did so.  After getting her feelings out into the open, we had a framework from which to start.

It helps to look at a prenuptual the right way.  A prenup is an agreement that is designed to protect both parties from each other.  A one-sided prenup is likely to be shredded to pieces in any divorce court, especially if the judge is a woman.  A true prenup takes care of both parties and provides restitution based upon performance criteria of both parties, and also by the "time served" concept.

Let's take a little deeper look.  First of all, prenups are designed to make both parties feel more secure about entering the marriage, not about who gets what.  This can discuss the division of family responsibilities, the earning of "equity" in the marriage, and forbidden behaviors/actions and the penalties attached.  Mention that there can be a fidelity clause in the prenup that makes a significant monetary penalty against the cheater and you will get her attention real fast.

Prenups should have certain protections that are important to each party, in order to be fair.  For instance, she might like guaranteed travel home and establishment in her own apartment/lifestyle should things not work out.  You might want protection of certain assets for your children from a previous marriage.  Establishing up front what will make each of you feel safe to enter a marriage will help to ensure that you both better understand each other's needs and wants.

A prenup should also contain some sort of longevity clause in it.  The longevity clause provides greater vestment in family equity over time.  As an example, if Joe and Mary get married, they each have assets they bring into the marriage.  While it is common that all assets acquired in a marriage are to be split evenly between the two of them, perhaps Mary has a disproportionately larger amount of assets coming into the marriage.  What a longevity clause would do is allow a percentage investment over time to those assets.  Example:  Each partner will gain 5% vestment to the other partner's assets each year, with a maximum vestment of 50% after 10 years.

Overall fairness:  If a prenup looks and feels more than fair for both parties, there is a much stronger chance of it holding up in court.  Why?  Fairness seems to be a strong current behind divorce proceedings.  Also, if a prenup is overly fair, it is likely both parties entered into the prenup willingly and without coercion.

Lastly, the most expensive thing is getting two lawyers involved.  Once for you, one for her.  Get it translated and notarized and make certain she understands every aspect of the prenup.  Complete understanding, the feeling of protection, respect and fairness for both individuals are what will make your lady want to sign it.  

A prenuptual agreement should be an understanding and respect of your partner's wants and needs.  If done correctly, it can be a loving document, that establishes a deep and abiding trust throughout your entire marriage.  If approached wrong, it can cause a serious negative impact upon the starting of your life together, perhaps crippling your relationship before it ever begins.

As always, this is my 2¢ and strictly my opinion.  Your mileage may vary...

[Mike]

... in response to Traversing the minefield..., posted by John K on Feb 18, 2002

I think your suggestion is perfect. I have one thing I'm thinking that is different then your suggestion and have no idea if it will make a difference but here it is. I've heard that prenups can be useless in court if the fiancee claims she didn't understand it or the witness and translators were on the side of the American and made this prenup by giving her a false perseption. My idea is, can you vidio tape the whole thing and have that as proof she wasn't scammed into signing it?
Mike

[greg2]

... in response to Question for those with prenuptial agree..., posted by Richard on Feb 18, 2002

If you find you do want a prenuptial agreement, you simply approach it in a way to protect her as well as you.

You need to protect her from what she is risking. If she decides that you are a slob - you agree to relocate her back to FSU and that you will take care of her for x amount of months till she can get her feet back on the ground.

However, depending on where you live, you may not need a prenuptial agreement. As long as you do not mix funds from her and you or move money into (through) your personal accounts from other sources like retirement funds from past etc, it most likely will be protected.

For example,  you would not let her put any money she earned into your home. You would need to keep a separate account from a corporation that you set up prior. You can upgrade your home, purchase furniture etc, from that account that is completely separate from your wife. Otherwise, if you do not do this,  you are mixing funds and she now has legal claim to your house.

You are going to have to consult an attorney in your area who deals in such and simply get information on how to protect your assets without a prenuptial agreement and get the pros and cons on an agreement.

You would not get life insurance because you are expecting to die prematurely - you do it as a precaution.  This is no different.

If you have any children from a previous marriage, she will understand how you have to protect your children. You can also tell her that the only way you could avoid a prenuptial is if you both took the time to  know each other much better. However, that could delay a wedding up to five years given how little time you could share together during that time span.

[Rickster]

... in response to Question for those with prenuptial agree..., posted by Richard on Feb 18, 2002

A lot has to do with how you approach such a sensitive topic.  A prenup should be used to adequately communicate and educate each person.  I could also argue that if a potential marriage can't weather the problems of developing a fair agreement between two people, then what are the chances that the marriage could withstand other likely problems in the future?  If both parties are understanding and willing to make compromises, I think a prenup is a good thing simply for the value of understanding and communicating key issues.

Flags should go up if a person said, "I don't want a prenup and I am unwilling to put any effort into it or that it isn't romantic and it indicates a lack of love."  That is a very narrow vision.  Reality is that there are a lot of divorces and people do change over time.  Does it not make sense to have a contigency plan for a proven problem?

[tim360z]

... in response to Approach, posted by Rickster on Feb 18, 2002

Whether the girl is from next door or from 6000 miles away a prenup is a good idea for both people.  In todays litigious world.  Its spells-out reality for both.  It should be clear and consice and all issues should be touched upon,  for the mutual benefit of each.  Some may find this quite unromantic.  I could only advise those souls to spend a couple days in divorce court or family court to better understand this.  Anyone could be shaken with the ruins.  When first married all these couples beleived their special marrage would last forever.  One can reap a very bitter harvest.  Few couples beleive that they will be divorced,  that is only for "others".  The odds are rather quite good that you could become the "others".  How many guys on this board have once agreed to the "death do us part"....only to find that it is really,  "...divorce do us part."  The original precepts may be noble...but "...reality doth intrude".  In the prenup,  both should be both reasonable and realistic.  Good luck.

[Mike]

... in response to Re: Approach Part 2, posted by tim360z on Feb 18, 2002

Wouldn't it be nice if the K-1 paper work came with a prenup and you didn't have an option! Hmmm Maybe you could say " baby I didn't know about this, the dang INS is so hard to deal with but oh well, who cares, we will live a long happy life together anyways, so sign right here" ( after she reads it in her native language and yours )
There's no easy way to approach this, but from all the bad stories I've heard it sounds like a prenup may be the smartest thing you've ever done
Good luck
Mike
P.S. My wife reads these forums from RW married to us AM and you would be shocked at the number of RW that seek advice on how to take her husband to the cleaners!

[unsure]

... in response to Re: Re: Approach Part 2, posted by Mike on Feb 18, 2002

Could you tell us the link to the forums you mention?  I suppose they aren't in English, eh?  Is there any web site I can cut and paste phrases into?  All the ones I've seen just translate single words....
Thanks,
John

[Mike]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Approach Part 2, posted by unsure on Feb 20, 2002

Here are the links you requested. My wife said that some of the post are about perfume, driving here, and on and on, but you will eventually see what I'm talking about.
Mike

Forum
http://members.m4d.com/forum/forum/butsenina

Translation
http://translation2.paralink.com/

[unsure]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Approach Part 2, posted by Mike on Feb 20, 2002

I checked out those links you sent me.  It's very interesting reading.

They talk about:
How bad Americans dress (but how it grows on them).
How bad we spoil our children.
Worrying about daughters and step-fathers.
How different churches are.
How we frown on excessive perfume.
And on and on...

It gives a real insight into the cultural differences from their point of view.

[Mike]

... in response to Worth browsing!!, posted by unsure on Feb 22, 2002

If I was a first time poster I would have took a good chance of being a feminazi or troll or some word like that by telling you what does take place sometimes between AM/RW marriages. If you research this and other like forums you'll see there are some RW out there that would make you think twice! What people don't realize is it really is risky and some win and some lose at these relationships. When someone writes that they thought they had the perfect marriage to only later realized they married an actor/devil it is looked at with blinders on by some. Those links I sent you will allow you to look behind the secret door so to speak. Really don't let these post scare you away, but it is ment only to open peoples eyes. I for one wouldn't trade my RW for anything!
Mike

[unsure]

... in response to Re: Re: Re: Re: Approach Part 2, posted by Mike on Feb 20, 2002

N/T

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: Re: Approach Part 2, posted by Mike on Feb 18, 2002

if it were me...I would look less upon it as some document to help me.  As I see it more as a protection for her to know the reality of the given situtation.  Afterall,  she is the one leaving the security of her country and family and friends to dwell with you...so give her a guarantee...an agreement.  It also helps to minimize your risk and to give her a good exit if "things don't work out".  Because things,  as Mike suggested---may not work out.