Myths And Realities

[Richard]

... in response to Re: $120,000, posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

Rags wrote:

The bottom line IMHO is if you are pricing a relationship that will bring both of you a lifetime filled with happiness you are defeated before you start.

Richard replies:

Agreed.  However, people do need to be aware of the magnitude of the cost involved as well as other things that they might be getting into like dental work.  I read this board for quite a while before I went to Ukraine this year.  I remember reading a $15,000 to $20,000 price tag many times.  It didn't really sink in until I actually started incurring these costs.  

And, YES, I am glad I finally went and would recommend it to anyone.

[Dan]

... in response to cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

RW - What does the title "Myths and Realities" mean to you??

I do not mean this as a rhetorical question. I am sincere. Perhaps it doesn't translate across well, but you are sharp enough to recognize the arrogance implicit in the title. It suggests the author is going to separate those issues that are "myths" from those which are "realities" - and the author counts themselves credible enough to execute on that claim. This arrogance is exacerbated when he goes on to make the claim of "debunking myths."

For a new guy reading this board for the first time - or even one that has been here a while and has not seen Mark's idiotic professions of statistics when he first appeared - and more of his idiocy over on another board, it would be easy to consider him credible on the basis fo the fact he is already married, hence, achieved something that many others are still aspiring towards.

Now, if that same person buys into the idea that a budget of $2000 to pursue this endeavor is reasonable, he may well begin the process of making contacts, writing ladies and even beginning to form bonds with some of them.

The REALLY big deal Number 1. I've been in Ukraine when I've received a call from a guy who contacted me through this board and he was in Kyiv and had run out of money. His flight was not scheduled for some days off, but he had badly underestimated the costs to live in Kyiv based on some crap posted on this board. I recalled having seen the posts he used as his basis, and I didn't challenge them at the time because I didn't have time for it. It caused an enormous amount of tension and fear and inconvenience for several people to resolve this problem

The REALLY big deal Number 2. More than once, I have been introduced and gotten to know some of the ladies in Ukraine that have entered into communications with a guy from another country (not always America) and they had begun to feel 'bonded' to these guys, only to have the rug pulled out from under them when the guy starts to do a little homework and discovers just how much the endeavor is going to really cost them. In a few instances, it has caused more than just a little annoyance, I know one lady that was still feeling pretty heartbroken after several months.

All of this can be simply avoided by factual and representative information being portrayed.

If Mark had offered his commentary - as he so often does on so many different boards - under the heading of "My Experiences" or anything that did not serve to suggest that he HAS THE ANSWERS - then my response would have been mild disagreement or even silence.

Does that explain "the big deal"?

BTW - I also think he is FOS with his comments about all FSU ladies feeling "contempt" toward America and American culture. Sure, there are differences - but I have know a fairly large number of RW (from Ukraine) including women I've dated, their mothers, mothers of my friends and colleagues, etc., etc. - and I've had many discussions on this exact topic. I can count on one hand the number of women that I could describe as feeling anything close to "contempt" toward America. Yes, they will often feel a close link to their native country, and they will often ask questions based pon numerous misinformation including Soviet propaganda - and Melrose Place on television - but it is certainly not contemptuous. However, as this latter subject is a little less black-and-white, I'll allow for some validity in his view. I *do* however, submit that I would have never considered a woman that felt "contempt" toward America a good candidate for marriage and relations TO AMERICA. Adjustments to another country are difficult enough without compounding those with a contemptuous attitude. Just as you have advised people to consider ladies from a higher strata of society and with English skills - wouldn't you agree that men should not seek ladies with "contempt" toward America --smile--??

- Dan

[Charles]

... in response to cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

It is a big deal to make a misrepresentation of the cost.  Now we find out that he only made one trip and the girl paid a lot of the expenses, which is highly unusual.  It is a big deal for two reasons 1) men will think this is a relatively inexpensive process and will start writing women and spending money on that basis and 2) the women who want to meet these men will be disappointed and disillusioned when the men don't visit because they thought Mark's $2,000 figure was realistic.  That is Dan's point, and I think it is a good one.  Had he not challenged him on this, the newbies would think you can do it for $2,000.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: cost savings analysis, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

that the girl can't afford (like Mark's girl did) to pay all her expenses.

[RW]

... in response to Re: cost savings analysis, posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

Well, in this case we should go and slam Rags because he got his INS papers approved in 13 days. That is very misleading because everybody would think they could do their papers so fast.

And so on....

By the way, he actually DID it and seems to be happy. Is he claiming less money than he actually spend? I don't know why would he. Still beats $120,000 number.

And too many guys actually are already writing ladies, fighting with intepreting the correct meaning, sending money to cure sick cat, planning the trips and would never actually make it over there. Who is more misleading?

[Charles]

... in response to Re: Re: cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

This is not a case of someone carefully managing his money or just getting lucky with the first woman he meets.  He made HER pay for the medical examination ($100+), her flight to the U.S., and other expenses even though she was reluctant to come to America.  He also left out some other expenses he incurred, such as legal expense for his iron-clad prenup (or maybe he did that himself or found a free lawyer, now there's an oxymoron).  I've never heard of anyone even suggesting that the woman pay for substantial expense - it's certainly not mainstream - yet he had no problem representing that it was a "myth" that this process was expensive.  That's a lot different than someone advising that his K-1 visa was processed quickly.  The 13-day post about the visa wasn't designed to debunk the "myths" of this process.  Had Mark not been slammed by Dan, new readers would have concluded that the many estimates far in excess of $2,000 were a "myth."  He deserved to be slammed and the length of this thread shows  the fallacy of his position on this point.

[mdante99]

... in response to Re: No, He didn't do it.  She did., posted by Charles on Dec 19, 2001

My first requirement was that the girl must be doing well in her own country, not looking to come to USA at any costs.
It is very likely that such a girl would have her own money and will offer to contribute.

I see nothing wrong in that.

Read RW posts again.

Mark

[Dan]

... in response to Read My Posts Carefully RW Read them You..., posted by mdante99 on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

[Rags]

... in response to Re: Re: cost savings analysis, posted by RW on Dec 19, 2001

I can take it. (Nothing seems to bother me lately

I only stated what happened in my case and I believe that I included each time that I posted that I filed with the CSC which is considerably quicker.

Newbies take heed, READ THE ARCHIVES on subjects that you are interested in and don't take any one persons word that things will work for you as they did for someone else.

[mdante99]

... in response to Re: SLAM ME Baby!  , posted by Rags on Dec 19, 2001

I think you and RW have stated very clearly.
Mark

[KenC]

... in response to LP, WmGO, DE, Rags, Jack, Quasimoto (Oth..., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Dan,
Easy, buddy, you're gonna blow a gasket!!  Mark has a "style" about his writing that used to get under my skin also.  The "$2,000" cost estimate is waaaaaay off and we all know it.  I spent much more than that on phone calls to Lena!!  LOL  My cost per trip was more than 2 grand.  When I went I didn't have all the great info on flat rentals that can now be found here, so I paid more for hotels.  Even without housing I would consider $2,000 cheap for A trip ($1k airfare & $1k spending money).  Although I was hard pressed to spend $500/week in Tver, Moscow more than made up the diff.  LOL.  

As for the negetivity towards American culture and society in general, I would have to agree more with Mark than you.  The Russians & Ukrainians I have met here have more than a few negetive statements about that.  I have seen Lena's own negetivity towards American culture become less and less over time.  I think it is only human nature to poke fun of something that is different from what your norm is.  Over time the good things become more apparent and the "odd" things become more acceptable.  Have a great holiday!
KenC

[Dan]

... in response to Dan, Dan, Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

With Mark, it is more than just a stylistic issue. Is is his blatant arrogance.

Yes, I agree there is more validity to his comment about negativity. However, consider your choice of words as contrasted to his. He used the terms "contempt" and "disdain" and "detests". Strong words, indeed, and vastly differnet than a simple occasional negativism.

My Olya - much as your Lena - really feels a strong bond to her native country. We own an apartment there and will likely spend substantial time over the years in Ukraine. It is entirely possible we will live there for some periods.

However, this is a love of homeland and vastly different than a contemptuous attitude toward the new country. One really needs to examine the wisdom of bringing a woman to America if she feels a contemptuous attitude toward America. Adjustment is difficult enough without that additional issue to struggle with. Actually, in my case, adjustment has been an absolute breeze - so maybe I could have dealt with it --smile--. But I wouldn't have wanted it anyway.

Cheers to you and Lena too!

- Dan

[KenC]

... in response to Hi Ken . . ., posted by Dan on Dec 19, 2001

Dan,
Mark's arrogant attitude used to get my goat when he was telling everyone how to marry a RW BEFORE he was married.  This is a little different.  Now he has actually married a RW and is relaying HIS experience.  I understand that his $2k number is whack and you are doing the newbies a favor by clarifying the true costs.  I remember jumping on WSBill about spouting his FSU travel knowledge BEFORE he even went.  There are a lot more harmful and misleading posts here from Yahoos that don't have a clue (or a woman) on how to find, romance and marry a RW.  I personally cringe when I hear guys justifying the excessive money they sent to save some RW's babushka, mum, aunt, sister or child (pick one). Mark IS married to a RW and his input is valid even if it is misleading at times.  I took a very different route than most here and I "broke" a TON of rules.  Yet, I consider my relationship with my wife to be a great success.  The difference is that I do not advocate that the actions I took will work for everyone.  We have far too few "experienced" poster here as it is.
KenC

[KenC]

... in response to Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

n/t

[Charles]

... in response to Dan, Dan, Dan, posted by KenC on Dec 19, 2001

Ken, I know you know the $2,000 figure is wrong, but for those who are not as experienced as you reading this "Myth and Reality" post would come to a different conclusion had Dan not jumped on his horse.  Dan's persistence in requiring Mark to explain where the $2,000 figure comes from as well as the tide of more realistic estimates, including yours, provided a valuable service to the users of this board in their evaluation of seeking a RW.