Statistics

[Tootsie]

Today on Russian TV (NTV channel, probably some of you have it, the programme is called “To be continued…”) they said that from every 10 marriages RW/Foreign men 8 ended in divorce. That means that only 20% of such marriages are successful…

Tootsie

[Charles]

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

I would be very leery in relying on these statistics from NTV without finding out the basis for the data. NTV was taken over by the state because it was repeatedly critical of Putin's continuance of the war in Chechyna and other aspects of the Putin administration.  Russia is clearly concerned about the fact it has a negative population growth and the large number of women seeking to marry foreigners doesn't help that situation.  So why not throw out an unsupported number to discourage the exodus.

I have read with some interest the posts claiming various "statistics" on these marriages.  While far from authoritative and certainly not the last word, the study done for the INS by the professor from the University of Florida - it's posted on this site - is probably much closer to reality than what was allegedly reported on NTV.

[Johnny W]

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

Well, I think it's time to try to make a conclusion. This reply is to all of you who as replied to my posts. I don't  have much more time to spend on this. It's more important for me to spend time with my wife this Sunday, and it's soon Christmas.

Sometimes it strikes me that some Americans are  very ignorant about the world outside the US. That doesn't go for all of you, but it looks it little strange for a European to see some of you claim that the USA are the most cultivated  country, the one that gives most opportunities and has the highest standard of living.

I referred to a report about the standard of living in different countries. In stead of arguments, the answer was I don't care about nonsense of the UN. They are socialists. Sometimes it's good to have the UN when it suits you, sometimes when you don't like  what they say, you don't pay any attention to them. It was  a report  made according to scientific demands, but of course because you didn't like the conclusions, you name it nonsense.

In case some of you are not aware of it. We on this side of the Atlantic have the same possibilities to decide our own future, to create a business as you. The European Union now offer a   common market that is considerable bigger than in America. We have the same possibilities as you to pay a lot for a private health care if we want that in addition to what  we have. We can travel freely without passports over the whole Western Europe. We are free to settle and work in any country, or to make business in any country.

To you, Johnim. You're right. What is most important that you two make the relationship grow. My point was, however, that I still believe that it will be more difficult for a Russian lady to feel good in America. A lot of you guys thinks that   money is the Alpha and Omega. The problem is that most of you are too busy to have time to  take care of a lady just arrived from Russia. This is also underlined by the fact that in America you  very often will be social isolated. I believe that is an side effect of your continuous hunt for more money. You don't have time for each other any more. Everything and everybody is valued by how much you have or make.

These are some of the arguments why I think a Russian lady should be very careful looking for an American man. She should look to Europe.

Johnny W

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

You did not understand what I wrote and took things out of context.  I did not say that that we were the wealthiest country in the world and rating systems developed by the UN are not scientific.  They incorporate the bias of the people that come up with the scoring and those people are from Europe.  I trust what I have seen with my own eyes and what people from Europe tell me.  I know you Europeans love to criticise America, it's your hobby.  It makes you feel superior and helps you forget your envy.  

I asked more than one coworker from England what suprised him most about the US and he said: "I did not realize America was so much wealthier than England".  In just over 250 years look what America has built from a wilderness compared to Europe.  You have beautiful buildings 100s of years old.  We will tear down a stadium not even 30 years old and put up a new one.  When we say we have a house that's 20 meters squared, we are not counting the yard, the garage or the basement.  

Your opportunities in Europe are very limited compared to ours and you will never understand that.  I know wealth isn't everything, but you sound as if you resent people for working hard and becoming successful.  That's so European.  I make no apologies for liking this country over others.  

Spend time with you wife or maybe read a book on Marx.  Relax, until the oil runs out and then somebody younger in your country will work very hard to support your retirement.

[Johnny W]

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

"You did not understand what I wrote and took things out of context. I did not say that that we were the wealthiest country in the world and rating systems developed by the UN are not scientific. They incorporate the bias of the people that come up with the scoring and those people are from Europe."

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but you really said the that report from the UN was nonsense without any arguments to support your opinion. How do you know that the result was coloured by the bias of people from Europe?

We can agree about the fact that  we value different   things in our countries/economical systems. Norway (and the rest of Scandinavia) is not at all a socialistic society, even if it may sounds like that for you. But our economical systems is easier for a Russian lady to adapt to and feel comfortable in because we share more of the same  values. Plus our societies are not so founded the principle of the survival of the fittest, it's easier to survive here.

"I trust what I have seen with my own eyes and what people from Europe tell me. I know you Europeans love to criticise America, it's your hobby. It makes you feel superior and helps you forget your envy. "

Maybe you will not believe me, but in many concerns I admire the USA. I admire the dynamic power of the American system, the will and ability to do and act were we in Europe are  caught by all kind of consideration. We don't feel superior. That is what you are entitled to.

"I asked more than one coworker from England what suprised him most about the US and he said: "I did not realize America was so much wealthier than England".

England didn't either get a good result on that report I referred to. Thanks to many  years  with Margareth Thatcher England has got a big underclass with a lot of poor people. It's very sad. However it's true, I've never seen so big donuts as in California. In the beginning I didn't recognise them :-) and wonderful Kentucky Fried Chickens and never so many fat people :-).On my ride along with the LA-police, I've never seen so much misery either.

"When we say we have a house that's 20 meters squared, we are not counting the yard, the garage or the basement."
Neither did I. You should, however, understand the climate in Norway is rather harsh sometimes, especially in winter. We need big and comfortable and good houses. People here spend a lot more money on that than in most other places.

"Your opportunities in Europe are very limited compared to ours and you will never understand that."

What about some arguments telling me why it is like that? I don't  understand what possibilities you are having that I'm not.

"I know wealth isn't everything, but you sound as if you resent people for working hard and becoming successful. That's so European. I make no apologies for liking this country over others."

It's true we in some degrees make life too comfortable for some lazybones, but when I go home for celebrating Christmas, I can do it and know that everybody here has enough money for a decent living. (Even if I know some people use all their money for drugs). If you, however, would like to make a carrier, you need to work hard.

"Spend time with you wife or maybe read a book on Marx. Relax, until the oil runs out and then somebody younger in your country will work very hard to support your retirement. "

Maybe you have some book of Marx to recommend? It's true, I did in my young days read some communist literature. Not because I was a communist, but because I would like to understand what we had to fight.

About the oil. You know we now are pumping out the oil and gas from the North Sea (between Norway and Great Britain). We have just begun to exploit the enormous gas and oil resources in the Norwegian Sea, and still we have the gigantic  resources in the Barents Sea  left. We will not empty that in our lifetime. By the way, Norway are using only a little part of our oil incomes, mainly the interests. Most of the incomes we invest in other countries, and our oil-fund now consists of billions of dollars. I'm sorry I had to disappoint you.

Johnny W

[tim360z]

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

and each country's people do want to have others think they are doing quite well.  And that their country is the best...at whatever.  It is the spirit of nationalism.  I think we should respect that and I think many comparisons are comparing apples to oranges.  America is a country of plenty...we have plenty of everything.  

  It has also been my experience too that Western Euro's visiting here are astounded by our largess..of everything.  The price and quality and abunance here sets the first time visitor into a state of amazement.  One case:  Last summer a friend came over from London with his kids and wife for 2 weeks.  He's a smart guy with a couple of bucks and a London businessman with 3 restaurants.  Our prices and quality and abundance just knocked him out...really.  Things like shrimp and lobster and beef tenderloin and gas and clothing and furniture and....made him like a little kid.  These things he assured me were triple,  at best in London.  Well,  he was on Holiday and he loaded the fridge with shrimp and lobster and he felt like a jolly good king here.  Which was funny because he is really such a skiflint...I mean a real cheapo.  Oh! wines,  our selection of wines is 10 times the selection and much cheaper with a greater variety.  Now,  my sister in Sweden?  So many things that are easy and cheap for me to have over here...are impossible,  virtually for her to get.  And they throw so many tax's on things,  that it is just silly.

[Zink]

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

Bubba, I don't want to get into a fight over whose is the best country. But Many Americans are over sensitive about it. And when you talk about socialism it looks like you're still feeling the after effects of McCarthyism. It's like you have an inferiority complex. If you didn't say the US is the greatest 10 times a day maybe you wouldn't believe it yourself. Don't get too offended by this because I'm not trying to insult you or your country. I just want you to take a close look at the way you presented yourself.

I laughed when I read about tearing down a 30 year old stadium. Canada's development closely echoed the US's. When we tear down a 30 year old building it's because it was a piece of crap. Built out of substandard materials that couldn't last. The old buildings I saw in Europe were solid. They weren't made out of pressed paper and softwood like everything built around here in the last 40 or so years.

Take it easy guys. It's good to have a little national pride. But that doesn't mean you need to constantly insult the rest of the world. That goes for the Europeans as well as the Americans.

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Re: I was wasting my time replying to yo..., posted by Zink on Dec 17, 2001

He said the US was one of the worst countries a RW could move to and I said it was not.  That got the whole thread going with the back and forth stereotypes.  

I wouldn't really insist this was a country with such great opportunities if I was pumping gas somewhere.  No, I am doing very well and I appreciate what I have.  As an engineer, I have so many friends that have struck it rich and those are the opportunities I refer to.  

Oh, we don't tear down our stadiums because they aren't well built, we just want a bigger one with restaurants and luxury skyboxes.  The Texas stadium was a big screwup though.  It's an open dome because the design was flawed.  Maybe they'll tear that down and do a bigger one.

[Jeff S]

... in response to I was wasting my time replying to you, posted by BubbaGump on Dec 17, 2001

Let's also not forget that the reason that most Europeans can gloat about their socialized medicine and other social programs being superior is because their national security is graciously funded by the American taxpayer in the form of NATO.
-- Jeff S.

[Dan]

... in response to Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Johnny W on Dec 16, 2001

Johnny,

I suspect we have more common ground than disagreement. I am only happy that my Olya didn't take your advice of looking to Europe instead of America - though, in her particular case, I feel pretty strongly she could adjust to just about any circumstance - and that quality has served her well here in America.

As for an American-centric view of the world - yes, it is a sad fact that a lot of Americans cling to the notion that America is the "best" country in the world. I honestly don't know what "best" represents anymore.

I *do* know that - for the majority of it's populace - India wasn't a very nice place to live.

I also know, as I posted before, that I think central Europeans have a much better standard-of-living than may be apparent from  statistics - and I have heard that Scandinavia is even better. I'd like to find out - and maybe someday I will.

You know - speaking of sad facts and the American-centric view being misplaced. I cannot help but think about the "forced democratization" or maybe "forced capitalism" that is being foisted upon the FSU countries right now. It seems that because America - with it's VERY unique history and constituents has been successful in wealth-building - that other countries in the emerging world order are expected to follow that template. I submit that it is entirely the wrong template for FSU. I could go on at some length as to reasons why, but the evidence is in the decade since the collapse of the Soviet Union - AND - in the proximity to it's neighbors - nearly all of which operate some form of socialistic government.

Anyway - just a few idle thoughts on a Sunday afternoon.

Regards,

- Dan

[Johnny W]

... in response to Re: Replies to all who replied to me, posted by Dan on Dec 16, 2001

Dan,
"I suspect we have more common ground than disagreement. I am only happy that my Olya didn't take your advice of looking to Europe instead of America - though, in her particular case, I feel pretty strongly she could adjust to just about any circumstance - and that quality has served her well here in America. "

Dan, I wish you all the best, and I'm quite sure she will find America  wonderful together with you. I don't mean and didn't  say that America can't be a good country for Russian ladies. I just  pointed to something I've noticed. First: America can be a hard and merciless country (Life can be bright in America, if you are rich in America). What if you don't have a lot of money? Second: the American way of life  can be very different from what people are used to  in Eastern Europe. Of course they will be impressed by your supermarkets, freeways and whatever more you have. However, people in your country have little time for each other, and social isolation can be very hard.

Some years ago I had contact with a lady from Russia who married a guy from Texas and moved there. In the  days (he was probably working shift work) she was sitting alone without anybody to talk to. Everything was expensive. I'm not talking about donuts and chickens, but about education, drivers license and studying English. In the end she left him and moved back. She never told me he was a bad man, but I think it was social isolation that killed their relationship.

"As for an American-centric view of the world - yes, it is a sad fact that a lot of Americans cling to the notion that America is the "best" country in the world. I honestly don't know what "best" represents anymore. "

I'm sorry Dan, but it's well known over the rest of the world that Americans in general are very ignorant about the rest of the world. They travel little, few speak other languages than their own, and most of you have unrealistic perceptions about how wonderful America is. Of course their are exceptions. By best friend through many years, David, lived outside LA, and wiser man I've never met. I believe there are many more like him "over there".

"You know - speaking of sad facts and the American-centric view being misplaced. I cannot help but think about the "forced democratization" or maybe "forced capitalism" that is being foisted upon the FSU countries right now. It seems that because America - with it's VERY unique history and constituents has been successful in wealth-building - that other countries in the emerging world order are expected to follow that template. "
rest snipped

I agree with you. I think it's a very correct observation.  I name that kind of capitalism that they tried to introduce in Russia for "pirate capitalism". A few persons get hold of the most valuable industries in the country for nothing. Russia should have chosen their own way whatever that would have been.
Regards
Johnny W

[BarryM]

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

NTV in Russia was unable to acquire ownership of NTV International because of the political nature of the takeover. We don't see the same programs as you do.

I think your statistics are probably skewed. It's fairly common to post biased statistics and skewed scientific data for the purpose of influencing public opinion. The politicians do it with polls, environmentalists do it with unsubstantiated data, and sociologists do it by several methods that produce the false statistics you have mentioned.

I don't think any NTV program has the budget to perform such research with any sort of accuracy... since they're still losing money. To trust any sort of data, you would have to perform true objective research. That's rarely done in sociological circles these days because it's not ideologically expedient.

-blm

[Johnny W]

... in response to Statistics, posted by Tootsie on Dec 15, 2001

Tootsie you know there are three kinds of lies: lies, da**ed lies and statistics!

All I know is that tomorrow my wife and I can celebrate two years together, and our relationship is still growing.

By the way, I think that the chances for a happy and lasting relationship varies according to what country we talk about. I think that the USA is the worst country  for a Russian lady to go to.

Johnny W

[Johninm]

... in response to Dam**d lies and statistics., posted by Johnny W on Dec 15, 2001

Healthy Relationships shouldn`t distinct between any borders. What counts is, you two make it grow, communicate, understand etc. Could be "bad" guy in Norway or US...or "gold digger" and "visa hunter" RW/UK lady in Tokyo, LA or Dusseldorf..I`ve seen on my own.  US may not be "perfect" country in the world, but is there ideal place ? ( maybe Thomas Moruse`s "Utopia" island lol )ideal country ?. US is built by immigrants ( mostly europeans ), so is Canada, Australia . These are "melting pots " of diffrent cultures, diffrent people . Sure , there may be some discrimination here in US, but I think it`s worse in Europe, which history shows us many examples of nationalistic or religious turbulances there . Scaninavia may be "heaven" for single mothers, having one of the best in the world social care programs , but Scandinavia is also famous for it`s idividual, gas, tabacco, alcohol and other taxes. Per capita may be higher in Norway , Sweden or Switzerland than US.....but Brunei or Nauru or UAE have per capita higher than Europe. Does it mean they are "better" place to live...well, not to me . US has around 100 milion households (5/6 members per household ) worth $1 million or more according to statistics. Yes, we have problems here , but as any " big " country,  their "grow bigger " as whole world is looking at us. To me, there is no better country than US( in general ) in terms of education or business opportunities. There many foregn students comming each year to study over here. There many immigrants who built succesfull small businesses. We have variety of climates from  sunny Florida ,California ,Arizona ,four season New Hamshire to evergreen Wasington . We don`t have to fly to Spain or Greece as most North European "snow birds" do.  Actually our equvalent to european tourist travel would be Hawaii or Mexico. Didn`t US place first for the most number Nobel Prize  winners during 100 celebration of Nobel Foundation in Oslo 2 weeks ago ?... So happy home is where your your two hearts belong .   John     . By the way , I`ve lived in few diffrent countries in Europe for 21 years ( Scandinavia included ) before comming to USA 22 years ago

[BubbaGump]

... in response to Dam**d lies and statistics., posted by Johnny W on Dec 15, 2001

Norway is probably a little easier to adjust to that the US because it may have more cultural similarity.  It also helps to be closer to Russia or Ukraine so they can visit friends and relatives.  You have those long vacations and comfortable socialism people like.  

The US is however, a wealthy country and is a big step up from Europe.  I don't think they can imagine having so much.  There are lots of things to see that are so different from Europe that it may end up being a bigger adventure to come here.  They just need to get the right guy help it all work.