... in response to I don't think the story is fantastic. It..., posted by BarryM on Dec 11, 2001Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:46:14 -0800
Reply-To: "F. Paul Wyman"
Sender: Russian-Women-L - Relationships with Russian & Soviet Women
From: "F. Paul Wyman"
Subject: Will your fiancee have outside affairs after you are married?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
It's been a while since I've posted, so I will give a brief reprise. I
was an active RWL'er back in 1997-98. In our 4th year of marriage, I
discovered my RW was having secret meetings with other men for at least
6 months. This was the one thing that I had warned her about, from our
first meeting, that I would never be able to abide. The discovery came
about one year after, and with my ample moral and financial support, she
and her son got their green cards, helping her to land a high-paying
job, paying for dental work (orthodonics for both), medical operations
for both, clothes, food, driving lessons, 2nd car, etc. From her first
days in America, and even up to this very day, my spouse has always
praised me to everyone, as being the most generous, kind, and best lover
husband she could ever find. I estimate that my total financial
investment was well over $120K, but the emotional investment was far
more significant. The best news now is that I've now successfully
navigated the divorce peaceably, entirely as a Pro Per (without
attorneys), and that afterwards, we are still on speaking terms. I
have nothing to gain from she and her son being deported back to
Ekaterinburg. Besides, the INS will never do that, even in case of
outside affairs that lead to divorce, AFTER the INS has mailed the
notice of the green card approval. The only exception might be if you
happen to discover your wife was one of the WTC bombers or a
card-carrying member of Al-Qaeda.
From my total GQ on the situation (I did hire an PI and got huge file of
confirmatory evidence), it appears her basic motive was for diversion,
variety and entertainment. In other words "she just wanted to have
changes". This came as quite a rude jolt to the nervous system.
From this experience, plus what I have learned over the past 6 months, I
can say that I have now have my eyes open farther than ever, regarding
RW. But I just thought the members of RWL would find it interesting to
learn that the most informative education I have received to date, (I
will give a sample later in this post), has come from reading a "real"
Russian Women's List (not this one, the one for 8000 Russian women,
located at well.com.ru, by AlexanderMokryak) . Part of this list is in
English, but most is in Russian. It is well worth the $20 or so to join
it and get the insider's viewpoint of how exactly how RW talk to each
other, especially about AM. The gossip is so vitriolic that it can
clean the scales off steel plate. I can read some Russian, so that
helps. If you can't do the same, you can still use the free PROMT
Russian to English translator at www.translate.ru. But it's a lot
faster if you buy their $60 translator.
After this experience, I have revised my estimate of the likelihood of
an AM-RW marriage lasting for a lifetime, downwards from 60%, to closer
to 15%. Most of the guys who were on the RWL list with me back in 1997,
and with my same level of exuberance, have now suffered a common fate.
The notable fact, is that there are a remaining few who are still
successfully married, even after 3 or 4 years. To anybody with 5 years
or more of success, my hat is off to you and with congratulations!
I am already far aware than most, about caveats on differences in age,
appearance, interests, activity level, etc., so those among you with the
yen to offer unsolicited advice or other flames, can go ahead and fire
away, but I will only regard with credibility and respect, anyone having
5 or more years of successful marriage to his credit. If you have less
than 4 years, you just might be in for a rude surprise yourself, one of
these days. And if you even haven't made the first trip across the
pond, your flames would not even register on my Richter scale.
Maybe the dream dies hard, or whatever, but I am still willing to
consider trying a second time. I accepted a kind offer from Alexander
Mokryak to place my story, and my continuing interest in RW, in his
Russian RWL list. The story appeared on or about Oct. 20, had a caption
such which included our infamous RWL idiom "The Visa Whore". The result
was a highly volatile churning of carp eating popcorn in 6 inches of
water for about 3 weeks thereafter, all regarding the subject of
"Foreign Marriage and Prostitution". As I say, most of the responses
were negative, and even to point of being malicious. To me personally,
about 50 sympathetic letters were directed, most offering to start
correspondence. I have started correspondence with one, and we do seem
to have a high comfort level with each other so far. This one appears
to share far more values, and is definitely not the classic RW
blonde-bombshell, scantily clad Vogue model.
But the most telling reply I received, was one from a young woman who is
already engaged, and is expecting to depart Russia soon to join her
fiancée in Canada. I am going to quote this verbatim, and I have
removed only her name, because of our quaint American penchant to
protect anonymity: (another cultural quirk we have, not widely shared in
Russia, by the way).
Notice how this young woman states: "Prostitution is a normal thing
here and isn't blamed". Anyone who plays the AM-RW game, and does NOT
recognize that this attitude can certainly tranmute itself, even in the
best of environments, into one form or another of "infidelity" in a
marriage to an American, is being very, very naïve:
=========================
=====
SUBJECT: Family Life and Prostitution
Dear Forrest Paul,
You're crazy, you're really very very crazy, that's it. I read your
story about your marriage with a Russian woman. Why do you think that
Russian women are more suitable for marriage than any American one? I
know nothing about American women but if to speak about traditions of
the family life in Russia you're very mistaken. I'm much younger than
you but believe me I know many things as I spent all my life in Russia.
Prostitution is a normal thing here and isn't blamed. Not just regular
prostitution that also is very popular and is blamed, but something sort
of disguised. Women are ready to live with men not because of love but
for apartment, money, job and very often for support of children. Very
often they have nothing to do except it, women here are discriminated,
couldn't get a good job, children aren't supported by fathers. It could
be marriage, it could be direct payment from men, doesn't matter. I
don't mean that all the women here are prostitutes, sometimes
prostitutes here are just men. But you have to understand this
menthality. Your ex thinks she lived with you, she was kind, tender, she
was a good wife during 4 years and so you have to pay for that. May be
she even loved you first time but it's obviously she married with you
not just because of it. People here usually don't marry because of love.
If your were a Russian man your could find it normal because you knew
you could behave in the same way with her or with somebody else. And
it's really a normal thing here when spouses after 4 years of marriage
have lovers out of home. I understand, you see advertisements that
Russian wifes are the best in the world, but once tried bad food after
good advertisement would you like to eat more? Do you understand that
the best women could be only professionals? Now I will tell you
something that will make you laugh. I got an idea to write this letter
after I had talked to my fiance on the telephone during 2 houres. He is
from Canada! I had on my tongue words "I love you much", however I was
very surprised when I pronounced them. I really love him very much but
if a woman in Russia pronounces these words it's considered as a shame
for her. To live with somebody for visa or for money isn't a shame but
to declare feelings is equal to the statement "I'm your slave, use me".
Do you understand now? "Who has feelings is weak". May be I'm not
typical for Russia, I'm scared of quitting my country, I'm an
increadibly bad housekeeper and never was going to marry without love
(because for me it could be too great pain). But I know my country, my
people and how they do. I'm going neither to deassuade you from nor to
persuade of. Your letter was published in Russian. Be very careful. I
don't mind that all our women are bad, there are many very good persons
here. But I know how it goes, you know too. All the professionals always
know your desires. They know how to catch you. I myself am a great
supporter of international marriages, Russia today isn't good for
family, only for prostitution. If I was you I never declare that I was
married with Russian and now am looking for another one, even if I'm
really mad with Russians. It's a token for cheaters that it's possible
to deceive you again. You lost 4 years of your life, your nerves, I
don't mention money, but you're still very careless. Do you like to add
anything more to the litany of your family problems? So that's it. I
wish you to be lucky.
Sincerely Yours,
To me, it was also surprising and informative to learn how RW can have a
highly fluid view of "Prostitution" (i.e. sex without love) which can
take on a variety of forms, including this woman's exact observation:
"And it's really a normal thing here when spouses after 4 years of
marriage have lovers out of home".
In other words, even if you're willing and capable of being entirely
faithful yourself, you might not find that your Russian wife shares the
same cultural value system.
Maybe I made the mistake of telling my wife I loved her too much. She
apparently wanted to find some guys taller, thinner, and her own age,
who would just use her for fun and sport, just like the good old days,
back in good, old Russia.
Finally, I have realized that the "good news" about RW is that they are
just like AM: they like sex just as much as we do, maybe more. The bad
news about RW is that they are just like AM: they like sex just as much
as we do, maybe more.
And it is futile to bring over a red-hot-mama, and expect her to
magically transmute herself into the American version of Victorian
Virtuosity.
It's like anything else: what you see is what you get. That woman in a
hot short skirt, with a see-through blouse is going to turn a lot of
heads in Safeway, and a lot of American womanizers will rapidly offer
her a quickie, which she might eventually come to accept.
In other words, most of us simply need to do a more thorough job of the
"initial due diligence", take off those romantic rose-colored glasses,
and see cultural differences for what they are. In a nutshell, you
can't buy love, and you have to call a spade a spade.
It sounds trite, but I've learned it's true that it also takes an
ongoing effort from both parties to keep a marriage fresh and alive.
F. Paul Wyman
