Note On Cultural Pride

[tim360z]

I have recently read many posts where the poster talks about many Russians expressing that American culture is inferior to Russian or Ukrainian Culture.  Whatever.  It is really a fairly natural thing for people to do who are from other countries and have not been here or have been here a short time.  Most people want to beleive their native culture is a great culture and is superior to the USA.  It is a source of pride which they keep,  hold onto for a security blanket---even though they yearn for the largess America can provide.  Overall,  it is probably a healthy thing for people to take pride in their countries culture.  By taking pride in where they came from...they themselves feel a pride within themselves.  It is a self-esteem.  A self worth issue.  I have known many people who came here from other countries...like from everywhere and I have noticed that the shorter the period they are here....the stronger they cling to their former countries culture.  In time though they do begin to see things more clearly,  as they feel more secure in their new enviroment.  And in themselves.

  It is far easier to understand and to embrace the culture one has grown up with--than to immediately substitute it with a new one.  It is actually scary.  Education does have alot to do with it.  With a few well educated Russians,  I have some interesting discussions.  I was shocked about how little they really knew about American history....and yet,  they took a great pride in their knowledge.  Which was inaccurate to the point of utter absurdity.  Yet,  they beleived they had very valid points to make all based upon wron information.  It was what they were taught at University...very recently.  They know alot more about pop-culture and fashion and Britany Spears and movies and Coca-Cola.  From what they were fed on American history...no small wonder we are considered so culturally inferior.  But,  most are great on Russian literature and most quite knowledgeable about American authors and European authors.  And classical music...many are like a directory.  One girl even speaks and writes Irish and Old Gaelic.  That was amazing for me.  

  But,  I was surprised of the lack of knowledge of the real history of their own country.  Yes,  some little,  elementary knowledge of some famous people from various era's, some events and some historic revered buildings...but no connectivity from say 5000BC to the present.  No scope.  Now,  they are not historians,  but neither am I.  Some have quite a twisted view of their own history...forget American history. Things like the Mongols were quickly defeated by the heroic Russians in the 12th century.  A joke at best.  Or little knowledge of the Kiev Rhos or Vladamir,  who gave them the religion they now have.  Or of trade on the major rivers and Constantinople in the 7-8th centuries.  I am not sure...maybe Stalin got rid of many historians.  Talk about slanted history-- one girl told me she had scorn for Americans in WWII because the Americans were too afraid to fight and the Russian soldiers did all the real fighting against the Nazi's.  And it was the Russians who fought and conquered Germany and the Russians who marched into Berlin because the Americans were too afraid.  Cowards!!!  Well,  how do I reply to that ...that is what she was taught and that is what she beleives.  At 27,  I do not think its her fault...its some kinda cultural dis-information.  One can hardly understand a people,  if one does not know their history.  I try to understand theirs...but as nice as they are...they know very little of ours and little is even accurate.  So,  I do not think you can blame any RW/UW's who come here and need to cling to their culture and say their culture is superior....it is a security move.  Tim
   

[WmGo]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

I have observed similar mindsets and beliefs in my travels to FSU. The superiority complex of Russian culture (Russia and Ukraine) is quite evident. Propaganda and misinformation plays a
major role. As you astutely point out, cultural pride is also a factor. I also observed inferiority tendencies in the form of apologies for perceived economic/material deficincies (as was noted below).

America is the most culturaly rich nation on Earth. And this is to be expected given the fact that it is a great melting pot of (primarily) European peoples. Throw in African, Hispanic, Asian
and Middle Eastern peoples and that is a whole lot of culture. Unfortunately, many Americans have grown lazy and substitute popular/entertainment/sports culture for more sophisticated, deeper forms of culture. Luckily, there are still millions of people that know what "real" culture is. As you point out, most people from FSU only see the
pop/T
V/movies/entertainment/sports part of the culture. Then they jump to the conclusion that we don't have art, theater, museums, literature, classical music, etc. One of the reasons that we are disliked by many of the people in the Middle Eastern countries is that New York and Hollywood export TV and movie trash to them. Then they think that that is all America is about, which couldn't be further from the truth. Did New York and Hollywood change their programming after September 11? It's all about $.

Regards, and let me say that I have noticed a lot of maturing on your part since you joined this board.

WmGO

[wsbill]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

Don't need to post a lot of dribble here.  Just look back 10 years and look at who's gov't crashed and burned, an are in still a bit of a mess.

Remember when you point your finger one way, your other four fingers are point at you.

[tim360z]

... in response to Re: USA vs the other guys, posted by wsbill on Nov 26, 2001

more obvious than a bad idea." or  "...that a truth is not hard to kill and a lie told well is immortal."

[No more RW]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

There is a big difference between cultural pride and racism. If someone lives in Russia and they believe Russia is so great, that's one thing. But to live in America among millions of Americans, (who come from every part of the world there is) and bash them for simply being Americans is totally uncalled for and rather ignorant at best.

Us Americans are very different, few of us are the same about anything, think the same about anything, right? To stereotype Americans would be a big mistake most of the time.

The equivelant would be if I moved to Moscow, and told all the other Americans over there, including any AM/AW married to a Russian how inferior Russians were. Would I not have more respect for a foriegn country to not speak so badly about it's people? Or,....why would I want to live there? America opens it's doors to these Russians, gives them the freedom of opportunity, only to be looked down upon by these people? What? Who? Where? Why? Wait, wait a second.

I just don't get it. Something is just not right about this picture, some type of other phenomenon is taking place here. I just can't put my finger on it.

[Philb]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by No more RW on Nov 26, 2001

Does not American Society in general tell them (Russians) that their society/culture is inferior? (Communism, Healthcare, Economy etc...)

[Zink]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

It's called "The Volga Rises in Europe". It's written by the only front line war correspondant on the Eastern Front in WW2. The author is an Italian officer who was with the Germans in 1941 in the Ukraine(and yes I understand the significance of "the" before Ukraine). And then later at the seige of Leningrad with the Finns.

He tries to explain his understandings of the sociological, ideological, and religious beliefs of the men he was with and the Russians they were fighting. It talks some about the differences between the old people who remember Russia before the revolution and the young who only know communism. Very interesting. You sound like a guy who could appreciate it.

[BubbaGump]

... in response to A book I'm reading..., posted by Zink on Nov 26, 2001

I already took my lumps for putting "the" in front of Ukraine and so did Kenman.  I to had to stop it, or else. If we corrected everyone's spelling it would really get ugly.  

Another good book is: The Sword and the Shield.  It's about the Soviet KGB.  An interesting thing the author says is that the KGB spread claims that Edgar J. Hoover was homosexual.  That rumor persists even today.

[tim360z]

... in response to A book I'm reading..., posted by Zink on Nov 26, 2001

books to read.  Since the fall of Communism and the opening of secret records of WWII heretofore classified,  it is rather quite incredible to visualize that time and place and the crazy horror which the war REALLY was.  I certainly did gain a huge respect for the people of that time.  I think after WWII much information was simply buried away by everyone as people and governments attempted to look forward to a brighter future and turned away from those dark and murderous days of the war.  Looked forward to a rebuilding of a devastated Europe.  Russians and Ukrainians paid a very heavy price.  Many things were inspiring but most I think wanted to forget the carnage.

  One does need perspective though to gauge the cost and horror of war.  ie:  When the Mongols conquered China they killed 25% of the Chinese---thats 30 million people dead.  A very high percentage of total people living at that time on the entire world.
                                        Best,  Tim

[Johnny W]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

My experience with Russia and Russian people is a little different from yours. I very often met among my Russian friends some kind of humility and inferiority to Western culture. I remember one time in Yekaterinburg where we bought some fast food, and I wanted a napkin. I met a lot of excuses from my friends: "Oh, you know, Johnny. This is Russia". This expression I've met in many situations when they wanted to say they were sorry for something and wanted to apology for the situation.
I think the problem Russia is facing now are more cultural than economical. When you visit their fantastic cities, like Moscow and St. Petersburg, you can feel the enourmous power, creativity and spirit of that country. You can still see how their theatres and concert halls and museums are crowded by people who want to enjoy the richness of the Russian culture. However, for the masses there are some kind of schism between the old Russia before the revolution and the modern Russia you can see now. The communists wanted to break all connections back to the pre-revolution Russia. The old culture was  looked down on. After the breakdown of the Communism Russia unfortunate got some kind of robber-capitalism imported from the West that told them that the most valuable was dollars. However, little by little you can see how Russia finds back to its own rich inheritance. They are renovation their cities, and their old and rich culture is being estimated higher. When they will discover that the key to their future lies in their old culture, Russia will again grow and find its place among the great nations of the world.
Russian people who moves to the West have very little to be ashamed of. We can with pride show them our supermarkets and our freeways and abundance of all kind of goods, but lack of culture and spirit and nearness to each other. Why are we so proud? Because we have more money?

[KenMan]

... in response to Re: Note On Cultural Pride, posted by Johnny W on Nov 26, 2001

Yes, but when I was in Ukraine I was suprised to see the history of their buildings. It was because the Germans destroyed alot of Kiev during the War. Let's face it besides downtown Kiev is it so great? Lugansk's history only goes back to the 19th Century. So here in America with Boston, New York, San Francisco, New Orleans you have many architectural buildings as old and some older. If you go to Quebec or Montreal it is even older than in the U.S. I thought some of Kiev reminded me of Vienna in architect and I believe someone told me it has Italian architects? Anyways here in America you see alot of English, Spanish and French influence in the buildings. The "onion tops" are cute but if you open your eyes America is very rich with old European influence. Especially the old Canadian cities which is in "North" America. I think anyone "intelligent" will appreciate each place for how special it is. They will research and read up on the history of everything. I think it is all amazing and interesting for me. To say one is better than the other makes no sense for me. They all are special. Greece, France, England, Germany, Italy, Canada, United States, how about the Inca's in Bolivia and Peru, the pyramids in Mexico, yes Russia has a rich history but I think it is a global world today. Each place is special and great in it's own right. Whoever says one is better than the other? Well that is a sign of insecurity. Like I have said in 5 to 10 years+ Russia could very well have Fortune 500 companies equal to any in the world. And the women and Marriage Agencies might not have many women as clients. Lets hope we all live to see!

[MarkInTx]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

Tim,

Good points.

Do you remember the old Star Trek? Ensign Checkov was always going on about how the Russians invented this, and were first in that. It was a running joke in the show. He thought the Russians invented everything.

The point you make is very good, thoguh. Our society -- especially at the university level-- prides itself on expressing the "other side". That is an often times exasperating thing about our society -- but we have grown very used to this fair treatment of everything and everybody.

Most other countries don't have the same attitude.

So, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. I'll have to expect that more in the future...

[wsbill]

... in response to Leftover from Propaganda?, posted by MarkInTx on Nov 26, 2001

From their old chev looking trucks to their aircraft.

Remember their knock-off version of the space shuttle...

To bad, they never figured out how to make soft toilet paper.  Or, either, they stoled plans what they thought was toilet paper but instead it was shop paper towels.

[jj]

... in response to Leftover from Propaganda?, posted by MarkInTx on Nov 26, 2001

.

[KenC]

... in response to Note On Cultural Pride, posted by tim360z on Nov 26, 2001

Tim,
Good post.  You have brought up many good points.  As I was growing up durring the Cold War with a very Russian last name, I took some abuse from fellow students and even teachers.  My Russian roots made me look at information about the Soviets a little closer than most.  I always suspected that what we were fed had more than a little spin added to it.  History has a way of getting twisted to make a country look a little better.  A good book on this is "Lies my teacher told me".  This book covers blatant lies taught in our schools today regarding American history.  I am sure that the history taught in Russia is no more accurate than ours.  I have always told my wife that the political "truth" is probably some where between the US version and the Russian one.  LOL.
KenC