The High Cost of Illegal Immigrants

[el bandito]

el bandito won't bother answering or debating all the anti-illegal immigration charges here by this wonderfully eclectic & motley crowd of logicians, accountants, quasi-McCarthy-ites who see Marxists and Osamas under every rock, long-time Miami resident Tancredo-lovers, far-right-wing fringe reactionary xenophobic name-callers (they're "leeches, thieves", etc. ), who have ALREADY made up their minds anyway (i.e. return-ship "those people" all off to Mexico in crates to be used as dog food).

Debate a Wall?
Now that would really be "illogical", HAHAHA

Besides, some of us actually have full-time jobs with less free time than you, and are not retired abroad or at home, and our lives don't revolve around a talk board.

And besides there are many other sites which comprehensively, intelligently and dispassionately discuss things such as Comprehensive Immigration Reform (which includes 100% border security by the way) which are practical and progressive problem-solving solutions to the "illegal immigration issue".

Just a few rebuttals are worth mentioning, lest all you guys walk away thinking that you win again and always win on anything related to "illegal immigration" by bashing the "illegals" and "liberals":

*Point: Why don't "bleeding heart liberals" take in a "illegal family" into our homes and support them? Some of us have. For example, Catholic priests and sisters have done just that, and many families took in "illegals" who lived in the New Orleans area after Katrina. A person in need is a person in need, and labels such as "illegal" don't change that. Of course, that is something a cold-hearted far-right wing fringe reactionary "illegal" alien basher wouldn't know. Besides, when a "liberal" does do that, on a family level, or church level, or city level, the far right wing bashers start bashing us about "illegal alien sanctuaries".

In other words, they got us "coming and going"- we are bums if we don't take in the "illegals" - but if we do, we are bums for creating "unlawful" "illegal alien sanctuaries"!!!HAHAHA   You guys should be politicians!!!

Besides, didn't in one of the previous sessions of Congress, they wanted to felonize anybody who "helped" an "illegal"? (Rep. Sessenbrenner bill). That means we U.S. Citizens would be felons and maybe even deported from our own country ourselves!!! HAHAHA

*Point: Bias can be used to impeach veracity. That is not an ad hominem attack. The URL sources posted in the first post of this thread are biased in favor of a particular viewpoint - restricting all immigration, legal and illegal. Therefore, they are not objective or dispassionate.

* Paraphrase: "An "illegal" has the right to breathe the air of his home country only. Therefore, he should be deported." This is beyond "nonsequitur", it is sophistry.

* Checking everyone's SSN by itself won't solve the problem via self-deportation. There are too many "illegals" as you call them (actually unauthorized workers with community roots) who have worked here too long with US citizen children and babies born in the USA. And ripping moms from their crying US citizen babies to deport them won't look too good on CNN to the majority of Americans.

* People who think all "illegals" are thieves and leeches need to meet some "illegals" who did good such as Dr. Q.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/an-american-success-story/1977923273/?icid=VIDURVNWS03

* There were DEATH TREATS directed to Sen. Reid and Sen. Graham and Sen. McCain from the extreme far-right wing fringe loonies simply because they supported Comprehensive Immigration Reform in 2005-2006. If there were any threats of violence against Rep. Tancredo in Miami, then all right-thinking people, including "liberals" condemn it and argue against it. But what about those Death Threats to the Senators from the far-right? The far right did not say a word, on their talk radio or anywhere else, condemning it. Nothing showed better that they are motivated by hate, plain and simple.

*Point: The Accounting example in this thread. Frankly, the costs are inflated, and the benefits are under-reported. Besides, the accounting example is on the micro level. What about the all-important macro-level? The macro-level benefit to the economy is what counts. Do more research (objectively if you can) and find out how unauthorized workers add billions each year to the Social Security suspense fund, and substantially increase GDP and productivity.

* The only tenuous "relevance" of "illegal aliens" to a website for searching for foreign brides and fiancees is the frustration and anger that guys who tried doing it the "right way" for their woman feel because of the red tape, money and delays. Well, you could've always have tried to do it the "illegal" way of you think that that way is such a red-carpet, dream-like way to do it fast and cheap. You will find that that really is NOT the case and that you should not do it that way for many reasons and the vast majority of you did not.

So what does all this mean? It means that what is really going on here on this board on this topic is: MINDLESS VENTING NOT PROBLEM-SOLVING, and having this mutual "illegal alien" bashing society make each other feel good.

Otherwise, it has no relevance, and putting this thread into "off topic" or "flame room" does not change that. Simple "logic", my friends. HAHAHA

Now, you guys can go back to your mutual orgy/tsunami of "illegal" alien bashing/venting!

Adios, amigos!

Question: Can we the American people together truly solve the "illegal immigration" problem? Answer: Yes, we can! (Obama campaign battlecry)

Political Point: The Obama Tax Plan is not grubbing your money. If your household income is less than $250K, you get NO TAX INCREASE. See Obama website tax calculator. If you make less than $200K, you will get a MIDDLE CLASS TAX CUT. Build the economy from the bottom up, we all get wealthier.

There has been a redistribution of wealth upwards to the top 1% in the past 8 years. Wages for middle class have flat-lined. If you want more millionaires and billionaires, then grow the middle class. Wealth and prosperity grow from the bottom up, not top down.

Trickle down and deregulation economics doesn't work. Greed is only good if restrained and operating under reasonable rules. Trickle down? Well, it's been trickling down since the days of Warren G. Harding, and the rich have gotten richer, the poor gotten poorer, the middle class gotten squeezed. It's time for a change.

[Dave H]

I have no problem with a temporary guest worker program, where people can work, Just like Filipina OCSes, so long as they pay for services, like healthcare and education for their children while they're here. If the temps prove themselves productive, obey the laws, like the US and want to be American, they get preference in the permanent immigration line. And you have to apply for it in your country of origin.

Hey Jeff,

Excellent post based on reality, not liberal fantasy! I also have absolutely no problem with temporary work visas in areas where not enough American workers are available, agriculture, health care, etc.

Nice accounting...poor John and Mary have lost their 'American Dream,' while Juan and Maria are living the 'Illegal Dream'... doce cervezas, mucho sexo, y mucho U.S. citizen babies!

[jm21-2]

El Bandito:

You are somewhat inconsistent.

Although illegal immigration probably provides a net economic benefit to the US, all things considered, that benefit is enjoyed largely by those at the top: businesses with large amounts of capital or land, the ones who can really benefit from cheap labor; and individual people who benefit from the cheap labor of maids, gardeners, etc. The costs of illegal immigration fall largely on low-middle income taxpayers. How many low-middle income taxpayers are benefiting from how cheap maids/gardeners are, or cheap workers for their agribusiness or factory?

The effect of Illegal immigration is essentially redistribution of wealth to the top. Just like trickle down economics. [EDIT: let's phrase it this way: illegal immigrants provide cheap labor which allows big agribusinesses and factories to run at lower costs, providing cheaper goods to the consumer, who can spend the extra money on other things, thus stimulating economic growth in many ways. This is almost exactly the same argument made for trickle-down economics. We give big business some extra money and the savings trickle down to the consumer. *cough* Bull[snip]! *cough*] Things like farm subsidies (which Obama also supports) do the same thing.

So, please look at the whole of Obama's policies rather than just one small aspect. They are not anything new. He is throwing out a few pennies to the middle class and you're all excited about it.

FYI, I think McCain is a horrible choice too. Possibly worse by a small margin (they're both so damn similar it's hard to say).

[Dave H]

el bandito won't bother answering or debating all the anti-illegal immigration charges here by this wonderfully eclectic & motley crowd of logicians, accountants, quasi-McCarthy-ites who see Marxists and Osamas under every rock, long-time Miami resident Tancredo-lovers, far-right-wing fringe reactionary xenophobic name-callers (they're "leeches, thieves", etc. ), who have ALREADY made up their minds anyway (i.e. return-ship "those people" all off to Mexico in crates to be used as dog food).

Spoken in true liberal fashion! YES to all of the above! But I take exception to being called a "quasi-McCarthy-ite"? I'm a full blown "McCarthy-ite"!  History has proven Senator Joseph McCarthy correct!  http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17401 As to what to do with the repatriated Mexicans and others...I really don't give a ratón's culo!!! I will leave that up to their governments and you! Your messiah is very likely an 'illegal' himself, which explains your anger! If so, I will push to DEPORT him!

If you're heading south, hop in. There's not much room in the back seat but plenty of room on the roof and in the trunk.  Adiós el bañito!

[Bear]

el bandito there is so much to say....  but because I tend to blew my cork and the doc is warning me  I'll only make a few comments.

1.  Its not Obama.  Its a completely controlled congress by the three most liberal voting members including the President of the Communist Party.  To make him President is to give them an unchecked control to change the constitution of this country which Obama has been quoted saying that changes were needed.  Things like not selling bullets, redistribution of wealth and denying the sanctity of family.

2.  Okay so he's gonna give us a tax cut, why do the socialist tax us at all.  Kinda like a vampire taking blood out of one arm and putting it in the other after it goes through his mouth!  Who is gonna pay for that debt?  The rich who will leave America and take their wealth and job creating prowless with them?  Of course everyone in America will work their buts off for the meager living the government will decide we need because we are the evil wasteful Americans who have while no one else in the world does.  I for one will not do more so others can do nothing off me wealth and effort.

3.  This is the guy who said we could fix the worlds energy problems by adding more air to our tires.  While Polosi did her best to stymie and delay action on drilling has already proposed legislation to change back the moratorium on drilling since it will no longer be an election issue.  America will not be allowed to be free from the world control because then she and her likes would have no power.  The lies about only 2-3% of the worlds oil is in America boggles the mind.  We will be forced to comply with Global warning cr@p that will enslave our children and and destroy our freedom while putting our best friends of the United Nations in control of our economy.

4.  Obama has been associated with 5 individuals from Ayers to ... I'm sure you heard.  Okay ,maybe he isn't one of them but then why does he still associate with them?  How can he say a man who intentionally killed people in acts of terrorism and never apologized and truly reformed member of the Weathermen have ratted him out as un-relenting and still in charge, has been rehabilitated and call him friend.  Just too coincidental to say this isn't something to worry about.  And why lie about it?  Its all part of the public record and clearly documented and proven.  Oddly enuff every major terrorist in the world has publically endorsed Obama.  Why would they do that?

Illegals.  Where do I start.  There was a hospital 3 blocks from my apartment.  My wife and I moved there because we wanted to be close when the baby was born.  It was the #1 birthing hospital in Houston at that time.  Before check out they gave the Father/Mother a quiet steak dinner because the baby changes everthing.  They shutdown the birth center 3 months before Honey had our first because they could no longer afford the average 19 babies a day that came in for free delivery.  Worse another Filipina acquittance of ours was denied service while her husband was out of town because she left her insurance card at home and she looked "latin".  Ormy's daughter, Kelly was born blind after her mother passed out in the lobby.  The two of them spend months in the hospital and the medical bills approached $1/4M because of it.  There are four cases in Houston right now where auto accidents where illegals cause and or killed someone with their vehicle who were released because "only federal authorities have jurisdiction" and our liberal major want get the police certified to act in their stead - we're a "sanitary city".  30 years ago I made $12/hr as a maintenance man at a hospital and had to be licensed.  Today the same job is done by illegals for $9.50/hr.  They have driven down the pay and the quality of work.  I now engineer controls for these sites and most of the time no one there can speak english when I ask questions.  My programs are idiot proof, if its flashing red call my company.  Don't even want to start talking my M13 or the other gangs and what they do.  Who do you blame?  The congressmen who do nothing to correct or fix or the illegals?

I can go on like this all night long.  Yeah the government has taken too may liberties and really ripped the people.  I'd like to take most Republicans and put them beside all the liberals and give them an early trip to a cold, wet, dark place (prison - I control a few of those too!).  I believe this is because too many people don't stay involved and allowed the "American Experiment" to die (as the leader of China put it).  Many deserve what they're gonna get.  But my children don't.  And anger at those who took advantage of our stupidity doesn't give them the right to destroy America by intentionally voting in what they are complaining about and who has a history  of doing what they are assusing the Republicans of doing and who went out of their way to inhibit and deny those who would fix the problems.  It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

My opinion we've been intentionally defeated by our enemies who destroyed us from within.

The Bear Family

[Ray]

Quote: “el bandito won't bother answering or debating all the anti-illegal immigration charges here…” 

Translation: “I know these guys here are too smart to fall for my stupid leftist propaganda and I don’t any facts to back up my dumb lies, so el bandito will just give up like any good little liberal would.”

Quote: “Why don't "bleeding heart liberals" take in a "illegal family" into our homes and support them?”

What’s the matter, can’t you even read? I said take them back to Mexico or where they came from and support them there, not hide them here in your home! Harboring ILLEGALS is a crime!

Quote: “Besides, some of us actually have full-time jobs with less free time than you, and are not retired abroad or at home, and our lives don't revolve around a talk board.”

Then what are YOU doing here wasting your time spewing your leftist propaganda if you're so busy? Don’t YOU have anything useful to do with your life? When you can’t make your point by presenting any facts, you instead resort to bashing this forum? Another typical liberal hypocrite copout!


No hard feelings bandito. Here, have a drink on me...

[Dave H]

Barry really screwed up when he dissed the Clintons! To heck with the Republican claims and winning the Presidency...I wouldn't want to be in his 'Nike Air Force Ones' and on the Clinton's Sh...hit list!!! There are a lot of Democrats that are going to pay for biting the hand that fed them so well, for so long! It ain't over until Hillary sings!

[fathertime]

Then what are YOU doing here wasting your time spewing your leftist propaganda if you're so busy? Don’t YOU have anything useful to do with your life? When you can’t make your point by presenting any facts, you instead resort to bashing this forum? Another typical liberal hypocrite copout!

For someone who claimed to have little time he sure did write a whole lot of nothing!

I was hoping the bandito was going to make sense and argue the points rather than attack people for their experiences and opinions.  I can't help but like any fellow Papi supporter, so he can't be all bad! 

Fathertime!

[el bandito]

Who said anything about "harboring illegals"?

A priest or care-giver offering a bottle of water or medical help to an unauthorized worker especially during a catastrophe such as Katrina is not "harboring", nor is it and nor should it be, a felony in a civilized society.

Anyway, I do gotta run, some us actually do work... Adios...

Here's a parting Halloween gift for you guys...Be of good cheer: there will always be a place in Obama-nation for your gents...

[Bob_S]

el bandito won't bother answering or debating all the anti-illegal immigration charges here by this wonderfully eclectic & motley crowd

Why does el bandito speak of himself in the third person? 

*Point: Bias can be used to impeach veracity. That is not an ad hominem attack. The URL sources posted in the first post of this thread are biased in favor of a particular viewpoint - restricting all immigration, legal and illegal. Therefore, they are not objective or dispassionate.

Not necessarily.  Everyone has some bias, even thee and me.  Bias can be used to impeach conclusions or even the direction of the initial research.  But the facts are the facts (unless you are implying that they are lies concocted to support an initial biased opinion).  And BTW, facts can lead you to a new conclusion that creates a new bias.

* Paraphrase: "An "illegal" has the right to breathe the air of his home country only. Therefore, he should be deported." This is beyond "nonsequitur", it is sophistry.

No paraphrasing, no putting words in my mouth.  I chose my words carefully.  And it is not a non sequitur since you are the one who brought up the issue of rights.  My sequence follows you.

There are too many "illegals" as you call them (actually unauthorized workers with community roots)

Actually illegal aliens according to the law.

who have worked here too long with US citizen children and babies born in the USA. And ripping moms from their crying US citizen babies to deport them won't look too good on CNN to the majority of Americans.

You're right.  It won't look good which is why the appeal to emotion fallacy works so well.  In any other situation, it wouldn't make sense to say "because I have children who will miss me if I am taken away due to my criminal activity, I am immune to punishment."

* People who think all "illegals" are thieves and leeches need to meet some "illegals" who did good such as Dr. Q.

A noble and ambitious fellow.  But anecdotal and not the norm.

* There were DEATH TREATS directed to Sen. Reid and Sen. Graham and Sen. McCain from the extreme far-right wing fringe loonies simply because they supported Comprehensive Immigration Reform in 2005-2006. If there were any threats of violence against Rep. Tancredo in Miami, then all right-thinking people, including "liberals" condemn it and argue against it. But what about those Death Threats to the Senators from the far-right? The far right did not say a word, on their talk radio or anywhere else, condemning it. Nothing showed better that they are motivated by hate, plain and simple.

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  I'm particularly fond of that one.  You say you don't have time to post here, but you do have time to read every word by every far right pundit and listen to every far right talk show to know unequivocally that the far right was completely silent about the death threats?  Very diligent of you.
Note: There are always anonymous idiots out there tossing out death threats over this issue and that.  It would be interesting to know just what percentage of any politicians mail involves threats on any random day, and was it any larger over this particular issue.

The macro-level benefit to the economy is what counts. Do more research (objectively if you can) and find out how unauthorized workers add billions each year to the Social Security suspense fund, and substantially increase GDP and productivity.

Fail.  In any debate, you bring your own facts to support your side.  You don't say "I'm right, there are facts to back me up, go find them for me."  You find them yourself and bring them to the discussion.  I can just as easily say "I looked and there are no such facts from credible sources to back you up."  Who knows?  You may be right.  If you can find facts from a non-biased source (nothing from a pro-amnesty source, preferably from a government source), please share.

Well, you could've always have tried to do it the "illegal" way of you think that that way is such a red-carpet, dream-like way to do it fast and cheap. You will find that that really is NOT the case and that you should not do it that way for many reasons and the vast majority of you did not.

One of the main reasons is that you cannot go on a family vacation to visit her kin in the motherland.  So you will find in the archives here that we advocate guys do NOT marry an illegal alien.

So what does all this mean? It means that what is really going on here on this board on this topic is: MINDLESS VENTING NOT PROBLEM-SOLVING, and having this mutual "illegal alien" bashing society make each other feel good.

Of course!  This is the Internet after all!    Nothing is ever solved here (unless money is changing hands).

Question: Can we the American people together truly solve the "illegal immigration" problem? Answer: Yes, we can! (Obama campaign battlecry)

Yes, we can, but not through Obamessiah or McAmnesty.  Other countries have guest worker systems that actually work, and we can emulate any number of them.  But we won't. 
Some of us are old enough to remember the amnesty of '87.  We were told all kinds of things then: there were only 1M illegal aliens, and after we issue the amnesty, the borders will be secured.  Well, guess what.  About 3M people came forward for amnesty, and the borders were never secured.  Now we are told that there are only ~12M illegal aliens and again they promise the borders will be secured.  Fool me once...?  The seething and anger are born more from the duplicity and failed promised of politicians as from the illegals themselves whose plight is understandable if nonetheless troublesome in its impact.  So hopefully you can see where we are coming from.

Rednecks for Obama

Okay, now that's cute.     Kudos for leaving 'em smiling.   

[Ray]

Who said anything about "harboring illegals"?

A priest or care-giver offering a bottle of water or medical help to an unauthorized worker especially during a catastrophe such as Katrina is not "harboring", nor is it and nor should it be, a felony in a civilized society.

Oh, so now you're trying to say that you would be arrested for offering water to an ILLEGAL? That's just more stupid liberal nonsense and you know it!

But when you 'take an ILLEGAL family into your home and support them', while hiding them from the authorities, that certainly is harboring and is illegal as it should be.

If you don't like the laws, lobby to have them changed...

DEPORT! DEPORT! DEPORT!

[Dave H]

For someone who claimed to have little time he sure did write a whole lot of nothing!

Hey fathertime,

Don't worry...when Barry becomes President, el burrito will be working so much to pay for us po' non working folk that he won't have any time to post. I could use more money! Gracias señor!

I couldn't read most of his post as it didn't make a lot of sense, so I lost interest...although el burrito did give me gas...when it came out it sounded like a little voice calling "Ayuda me señor! Agua por favor!" Suddenly a  Mexican jumping turd jumped out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ori1lYGkXjI

[Dave H]

Sorry el burrito,

"Rednecks for Obama"...you missed again! Since you live in Miami, why don't you wear your Obama T-shirt down to Calle Ocho in Little Havana this weekend. You will actually see many Latinas for free without going to Latin America. Since it's Halloween, dress like Fidel Castro also for a bigger laugh. On Monday let us know where to send flowers!

Dave

[Bear]

It won't matter.  Since Republicans didn't protect the jobs of the legal latins here they decided to go with who would give them the most benees.  Latins are voting at last survey 4 of 5 for Democrats.  So when/if Obama wins the illegals will be legalized and we will be the minority.  The problems of the country they are running from they will voted in here.

Maybe we can get the (il)legals to take care of us then?  They won't have any choice.

The Bear Family

[Dave H]

Latins are voting at last survey 4 of 5 for Democrats.  So when/if Obama wins the illegals will be legalized and we will be the minority.  The problems of the country they are running from they will voted in here.

Maybe we can get the (il)legals to take care of us then?  They won't have any choice.

The Bear Family

Hey Bear,

I should be happy because a Democratic President means more money for me! Bill Clinton signed a law that my retirement must be payed even if the city where I worked becomes bankrupt and even made it tax free...'Gracias Presidente Guillermo J. Clinton and Democrats!!!' Unfortunately, I despise douche bags more than I like money! But rest assured, under a Democratic President, I will become a 'victim' and apply for all the Federal aid that I qualify for. "Get your money for nothin get your chicks for free!"


It is common practice in South Florida for Hispanic voters to vote more than once...fortunately most Cubans are Republicans.    The campaign adds on television only try to prove that one candidate is a bigger crook and served more jail time than the other. They also try to prove who is the most macho. One factual add talks about a candidate who beat up much smaller victim in a surprise attack, with the aid of Latin police officers...all caught on video. What a bunch of pendejos!

[Dave H]

The latest Illegal Immigrant


No wonder Barry approves of illegal immigration!

It is widely believed that Barry is an illegal immigrant (Indonesian citizen) who was not naturalized when he reentered the US to live with his grandparents. He will not offer evidence to prove otherwise.

Now it seems that his dear "Auntie Zeituni" is an illegal living on welfare in Boston. Barry claims "no knowledge of her status," even though he helped her get a visitor's Visa! The open-border Bush administration is even helping her stay until after the elections. 


http://news.aol.com/article/obamas-kenyan-aunt-in-us-illegally/234770?icid=200100397x1212103484x1200798183

http://www.koamtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9277263&nav=menu657_3

http://michellemalkin.com/

[Dave H]

If illegal immigration continues to go unpunished and further rewarded by either the Obama or McCain administration...I may be ordering those boat plans sooner than expected Jeff!!!  Any progress on 'The Mariel' model? 

Dave